Best "old" expressway

[jemacedo9]

These signs are brand new? If so PennDOT is not following the newest MUTCD (2009). As per the current standards, in the bottom two photos  the arrow is supposed to now be placed between the words "exit" and "only". Also, in the 3rd photo from the bottom, the words "next right" should not be on the sign that already says "exit only" with a down arrow over the exiting lane. I can't believe I'm seeing this. On the other hand, I'm not an engineer, and there could have been a specific reason that these exceptions to the standard practice were done. You'd have to ask PennDOT.

The signs are an exact replacement of what was there before...the "NEXT RIGHT", the centered exit tab, the "EXIT ONLY" usage.  it seems like they didn't review the plans in terms of updating to be compliant - they just changed the font to Clearview and went about their business.

[SignBridge]

And these people call themselves professional engineers? Heck, I never finished college, but I can read the MUTCD.........

[J N Winkler]

You don't have to be a licensed professional civil engineer in order to design signs, and in fact it is common for sign design and sign layout sheets to be drafted by CAD operators or technicians and then be forwarded to engineers (not necessarily PEs) for review.  Sign layout and sign design sheets do not necessarily even have to be sealed by a PE in some states--it depends on the specific provisions of a particular state's engineering practice statute and the policies of the state DOT or other highway agency that is involved.  For example, Caltrans requires that all traffic plans be sealed by a civil PE (i.e., not a licensed traffic engineer), and the Texas engineering practice law requires that all construction plan sheets be sealed by a PE (as a result of the New London gas explosion in 1937), but Kansas DOT does not require that sign design and sign layout sheets be individually sealed by a PE.

There are many demands on a working PE's time and review prior to signature or sealing can be cursory.  Composition of a signface is generally a fit-and-finish detail, not a safety-critical detail (unlike, say, the amount and depth of rust in a support beam in a fracture-critical bridge), so having a harried PE review traffic plans can actually lead to worse results than passing the traffic plans on to a working (non-licensed) engineer whose pay and status is lower but who has the time to review the design of each sign carefully.

In the case of the PennDOT signs, yesterday I filed a RTKL request for sign design and sign layout sheets pertaining to eight proposal-only signing contracts PennDOT has done since 2003, including at least one in District 8 (which covers the lengths of I-83 currently under discussion).  In 37 days I will hopefully have more information on how the sign designs were developed.  I think, however, that it is possible they were made up by the contractor and forwarded to the PennDOT resident engineer for approval prior to fabrication.  I can guarantee that plans were not made available to contractors when these projects were advertised, because if they had been, I would not have included them in a RTKL request.

[SignBridge]

Thanks J.N.............I had not known a lot of what you explained.  Interesting that different states have different laws and procedures. Do you happen to know what New York State's rules are?

[hm insulators]

Balboa in San Diego.  You can really imagine you're back in the 50's while on it.

Another vote for good old California 163 through Balboa Park. One of the loveliest stretches of freeway anywhere.

It's been years since I've seen it, but the Pali Highway (Hawaii 61) up over the Ko'olau Mountains between Honolulu and Kailua (not Kailua-Kona) is a truly scenic stretch of road little changed since it was built in the 1960s.

[J N Winkler]

Thanks J.N.............I had not known a lot of what you explained.  Interesting that different states have different laws and procedures. Do you happen to know what New York State's rules are?

I have some NYS material, including one NYSDOT sign rehabilitation contract (for the Cross-Bronx Expressway, which got new signs about three years ago), but I don't know too much about how NYSDOT handles sign design.  NYSDOT isn't a seal-each-sheet agency.  NYSDOT also doesn't provide sign design sheets, at least in the plans set--you get sign layout and sign summary sheets and that is it.  Neither NYSDOT nor the NYS Thruway provide plans online, although NYSDOT issues plans on CD.

As an aside, non-provision of sign design sheets is pretty common in the Northeast.  In addition to NYSDOT, MassHighway does not normally use sign design sheets, at least in the plans set; I haven't seen a MassHighway proposal book.  ConnDOT does provide sign designs, but only in the proposal book.  VAOT (Vermont) is half and half.  Freeway guide sign rehabilitation contracts will have sign design sheets showing all the large guide signs, but small-signs jobs (probably the majority of VAOT's signing work by contract count) have only a few pages of sign design sheets at most for the really unusual signs (e.g., signs pointing to ferries and ski slopes).  These sign designs all appear in the plans set.  I have no information about NH, but Maine DOT does at least use sign design sheets (again, in the plans set).

The Northeast is also not SignCAD country.  Only VAOT uses it regularly, as far as I know.  This contrasts with the Plains states, where SignCAD has about 50% market share among state DOTs, and the Southwest, where the percentage is closer to 70%-80%.  West of the Mississippi River it is very much the norm to have occasional contracts where sign replacement is the main item of work and the corresponding plans sets have title sheets, index sheets, sign summary sheets, sign layout sheets, sign design sheets, and possibly also standard sheets and sign structure sheets, including sign elevation sheets for overhead and (very occasionally, but often in the case of MnDOT) ground-mounted signs.

[J N Winkler]

Update on the I-83 signs:  it turns out they were actually replaced under a resurfacing contract (PennDOT ECMS 88359), so my RTKL request probably won't turn out to cover them.  For the most part they seem to be following the plans, bar variations like Series C instead of Series D for shield digits.  There doesn't seem to be a plan sheet for this sign, which (as noted) anomalously has the exit tab center-justified, not right-justified (PennDOTFan's photo):

[RoadWarrior56]

Sam Cooper Boulevard (a.k.a. "Old" I-40) in Memphis.  It looks frozen in time from the early 1970's.

[geoffNOLA]

I-110 Baton Rouge, LA- (Exits 1A-5A)
OR
I-610-New Orleans, LA

[MeanMeosh]

The old section of the Arroyo Seco/Pasadena Freeway (CA-110) gets my vote.  There is also an old section of South Central Expressway in Dallas from the junction of I-45 to just south of the Trinity River that's still in its original late-50s configuration, though the original grooved concrete was paved over about 10 years ago.