Bicycles and Road Design

[NE2]

Here we go again...

Though one does have to wonder why threads about freeways aren't hijacked by complaints about bad drivers.

(By the way, I just got back from a short ride. I treated all stop signs as yields, stopping when conflicting traffic required. I will never see the need to come to a complete stop when the way is clear, given the superior visibility from a bike vs. in a car.)

[Zmapper]

Right now I am visiting family in the Midwest. I saw a grand total of 4 bikes the whole way. All of them were at a little league game we went by. In Colorado I would have seen those same 4 bikes just waiting at a traffic light.

For all the harping I do about Fort Collins and the "dangerous" conditions here, you tend to forget that the rest of the country would have to move mountains to even begin to get to where we are at.

[Brandon]

Here we go again...

Though one does have to wonder why threads about freeways aren't hijacked by complaints about bad drivers.

Want me to start?  I got more than a few. 

Bad bicyclists are just as common as bad drivers (I'd swear many of them are the same people).

[froggie]

Bad bicyclists are just as common as bad drivers (I'd swear many of them are the same people).

That's the perception.  But statistically speaking, there are far more bad drivers than bad cyclists.

[Duke87]

Well, yeah, but there are also far more drivers than cyclists outright. How does it work percentagewise?

[J N Winkler]

Percentages wouldn't necessarily lead to a useful result, because different levels of risk attach to a given technical violation depending on which type of road user (driver/cyclist) does it and the context in which it is done.  My intuition, as someone who has commuted both by cycle and by car, is that there is not much difference between drivers and cyclists in risky behavior.

[hobsini2]

Look. I call in bad drivers all the time to the state police if i feel they are driving recklessly.  I also will follow people who i think are drunk behind the wheel until the trooper is on them.  Not because I care for THEIR well being but those are the bastards that are more likely to survive a bad accident. I know that may be perception but same can be said of drunk drivers.  The drunk seems to survive every time.  Now getting back to why I harp on cyclists that fail to obey the rules of the road.  If i was to call the police in Chicago on those bastards who blow stops, I would be laughed at and then hung up on.  Cyclists have to "self-police" themselves.  Rarely if ever do cyclists get tickets for something that I would get a ticket for for doing the same thing, such as running a stop sign.  Like I said before, I have nothing against cyclists who are doing what you are supposed to be doing when riding on the road.  But if you are reckless enough to blow stop signs and signals just because you feel an injustice has been done to you (or your cyclist society), I have no sympathy for you.  If i am at a 4 way, and it is my turn to go but a cyclist blows the stop right in front of me, that stupidity and arrogance should have a consequence for said cyclist.  And yes i have the same feeling toward motorcyclists who don't wear helmets and drive recklessly.  A Lot of motorcycle drivers ride properly. But it seems the younger bikers are getting more and more reckless.

[NE2]

But do you derail threads about freeways with complaints about bad motorists?

[hobsini2]

But do you derail threads about freeways with complaints about bad motorists?

I don't have to mention things about bad motorists, which there are way too many of, simply because everyone on here knows what a bad driver looks like.  I bring up my feelings on cyclists here because this is the most appropriate place to say what i have to say. I think adding bike lanes and boxes on roadways are a great idea.  I just have problems with how some cyclists already abuse the privlage, and it is a privlage, to share the road.  If cyclists want equality on the road, which i am fine with, then the responsibility of good cycling should be happening as well.  I don't see this happening where there already are bike lanes. You want to commute in a green way by cycling or just because you enjoy it, great. You have my blessing.  I don't know how you personally ride, but most cyclists i know are not responsible. 

Now as i stated in my previous posts, which you seem to skip over, how else would YOU deal with reckless cyclists?  Give me a solution, not a cop out.

Call me stubborn but equality comes with responsibility.

[NE2]

I bring up my feelings on cyclists here because this is the most appropriate place to say what i have to say.

I'm sure there are forums that are more appropriate for this...

[J N Winkler]

I don't have to mention things about bad motorists, which there are way too many of, simply because everyone on here knows what a bad driver looks like.

Don't you trust other members of this forum to know what a bad cyclist looks like?

[hobsini2]

Bicycles and Road design has everything to do with safety. Part of the safety is not just the actual design of the roadway but the education and responsibility of all who use them.  NE2, you still have not given me a solution for the problem.  I am asking you, as a cyclist, how else would you fix the problem? I have brought up education of both drivers and cyclists and you seem to shoot that down.  Not to sound politically partisan, but this is what we in the business call obstructionism: People who bring up problems, shoot down ideas, and then not give any other ideas.
I have brought up my concerns and what i would do about it.  You didn't want to accept my solution. SO, what is your solution?

[hobsini2]

I do bring up, btw, ignorant and stupid things that other drivers do on the roadway on other threads where it is appropriate such as the post i put on  Regional Boards / Midwest - Great Lakes / Re: Illinois may increase speed limit 70, Reply #65 on: June 03, 2011, 20:57:52.
This thread is about cyclists.  What am I missing here?

[NE2]

Now as i stated in my previous posts, which you seem to skip over, how else would YOU deal with reckless cyclists?  Give me a solution, not a cop out.

First, change the laws to be more sensical. Since a cyclist has superior maneuverability and field of vision, there is no need to come to a complete stop at a stop sign when the way is clear. In other words, allow cyclists to treat stop signs as yield signs. Perhaps do something similar for traffic lights: allow coming to a full stop and then proceeding if the way is clear. Idaho has done both since 1982.
Also allow pedestrians to cross against a don't walk if the way is clear. Because pedestrians are slower, perhaps the law would require that pedestrians be out of the way by the time the light changes (if there are vehicles waiting).
Finally, repeal all laws that make defensive cycling illegal, such as mandatory bike lane laws.

Now that common non-reckless behavior is not illegal, you have a better moral stance for enforcing the remaining laws. Put an officer at a busy intersection, and have him enforce motor vehicle, bicycle, and pedestrian laws. On a first offense, give a warning and a safety booklet that details what's illegal and why it is. If a cyclist continues to operate recklessly to the detriment of his own safety and others' right-of-way, then he gets ticketed.

[hobsini2]

Agreed, cyclists should be allowed to treat stop signs as a yield if there is NO traffic.  And peds already cross the road when it is clear regardless of what the signal says.

Now see these are good solutions when traffic is not present.  Unfortunately, you can't have a cop standing at main intersections issueing tickets simply becuase of a feasability issue.  Just along Clark St in Chicago which is a main road with bike lanes, you would need a cop at about 20 stoplights.  I would love to see cyclists ticketed for these things, but there are not enough cops available.
It would be a nice way to create more jobs within a city but most cities can't afford to allocate that many police to traffic let alone to cyclists.

Even if you did have enough cops, would these be bicycle cops? That would be the only way a cop could catch the reckless cyclists.  Problem is that a lot of cyclists in the city dont care. 

[NE2]

How is this any different from cops enforcing speed limits? They certainly don't get everyone who speeds, but they still go out and write tickets.

[hobsini2]

For example, here are some stats about the city of Chicago, Cook County and the police force using
http://www.illinoisdata.com/il_crime_stat.htm
http://www.bike2015plan.org/chapter1/index.html
Chicago Police Department wiki and the US Census.

Pop of Chicago (2010 estimate) - 2,824,064
Pop of Cook Co (2000 census) - 5,376,745
# of Officers / 100,000 people in Cook Co in 2008 - 565.2 officers
Chicago police (2010) 13,500
Total miles of bike lanes (2005) - 315 mi, (2015) - 500 mi when completed.

Unfortunately, i could not find how many officers are currently dedicated to traffic division.

[J N Winkler]

Also allow pedestrians to cross against a don't walk if the way is clear. Because pedestrians are slower, perhaps the law would require that pedestrians be out of the way by the time the light changes (if there are vehicles waiting).

Isn't that already legal, except in areas subject to the no-jaywalking rule?

[NE2]

Also allow pedestrians to cross against a don't walk if the way is clear. Because pedestrians are slower, perhaps the law would require that pedestrians be out of the way by the time the light changes (if there are vehicles waiting).

Isn't that already legal, except in areas subject to the no-jaywalking rule?

Hmmm. I think it's still illegal to cross inside the intersection, at least in Florida: "Pedestrians shall be subject to traffic control signals at intersections as provided in s. 316.075, but at all other places pedestrians shall be accorded the privileges and be subject to the restrictions stated in this chapter."

[realjd]

Now as i stated in my previous posts, which you seem to skip over, how else would YOU deal with reckless cyclists?  Give me a solution, not a cop out.

First, change the laws to be more sensical. Since a cyclist has superior maneuverability and field of vision, there is no need to come to a complete stop at a stop sign when the way is clear. In other words, allow cyclists to treat stop signs as yield signs. Perhaps do something similar for traffic lights: allow coming to a full stop and then proceeding if the way is clear. Idaho has done both since 1982.
Also allow pedestrians to cross against a don't walk if the way is clear. Because pedestrians are slower, perhaps the law would require that pedestrians be out of the way by the time the light changes (if there are vehicles waiting).
Finally, repeal all laws that make defensive cycling illegal, such as mandatory bike lane laws.

Now that common non-reckless behavior is not illegal, you have a better moral stance for enforcing the remaining laws. Put an officer at a busy intersection, and have him enforce motor vehicle, bicycle, and pedestrian laws. On a first offense, give a warning and a safety booklet that details what's illegal and why it is. If a cyclist continues to operate recklessly to the detriment of his own safety and others' right-of-way, then he gets ticketed.

I agree with all of this except the red lights. Considering the warrants that must be met to justify the installation of a traffic signal, I could see bad things happening if cyclists were allowed to treat them as yield/stop signs by default.

[agentsteel53]

I would have no problem with cyclists treating a STOP or a traffic light as a stop-and-go or even a yield.

what really irks me is when they treat it as a "plow on through" and expect me to do everything to avoid a collision while they appear to display no vested interest one way or the other.  I will do my utter best, but if it is physically impossible to do so, then I'm going to hit you, and that is just that.

[jjakucyk]

Traffic signals are more of a time-of-day issue.  When approaching an intersection from a side street with no traffic (like at night or early in the morning), bikes in many cases can't trip the induction loops.  Sometimes the sensitivity can be changed, but if they're buried under the top layer of pavement then cyclists can't see where to align themselves to be over the wire.  Also, with more and more bikes having carbon fiber components, there's just not enough metal for the loop to detect.  I'm not sure if the loops can detect aluminum or titanium.  Trying to hit a ped button (if there even is one) can be very difficult too if it's not well positioned.  

As with a lot of things said before, the point is that certain laws shouldn't be applied unilaterally without any consideration for other circumstances.  Of course a law that says cyclists or pedestrians can proceed on a red light would require a full stop and that the way must be clear such that proceeding is safe.  Ohio has a law that allows any vehicle to pass another on a solid/double yellow line, as long as the vehicle/bicycle/pedestrian they're passing is going less than half the speed limit, and that it's actually clear and safe to pass.  Why shouldn't a bike/traffic signal law be any different?  

[texaskdog]

My only complaint is that they still don't properly address the dangers of striping a bike lane next to parallel parking. If the bike lane is between cars and traffic, bike riders must ride in what is known as the "door zone". What happens is someone opens a car door without checking to see if a bike rider is behind them, the bike is thrown toward the car and the rider is thrown into traffic. Very dangerous. And some of their example pictures even show this!

If an idiot opens the door and you run into it, you get one free punch

[texaskdog]

Here we go again...

Though one does have to wonder why threads about freeways aren't hijacked by complaints about bad drivers.

Want me to start?  I got more than a few. 

Bad bicyclists are just as common as bad drivers (I'd swear many of them are the same people).

I go hiking at Walnut Creek park and occasionally biking there.  Hikers have the right of way, but the bikers act so annoyed if bikers are on the path.  I do my best to get out of the way, and generally go against traffic, but they go too fast.  Especially the ones with the ads.

[deathtopumpkins]

Traffic signals are more of a time-of-day issue.  When approaching an intersection from a side street with no traffic (like at night or early in the morning), bikes in many cases can't trip the induction loops.  Sometimes the sensitivity can be changed, but if they're buried under the top layer of pavement then cyclists can't see where to align themselves to be over the wire.  Also, with more and more bikes having carbon fiber components, there's just not enough metal for the loop to detect.  I'm not sure if the loops can detect aluminum or titanium.  Trying to hit a ped button (if there even is one) can be very difficult too if it's not well positioned.

One of the new Virginia laws that went into effect on July 1 dealt with this. It is now legal for bikes, motorcycles, and mopeds, to run a red light after waiting either 2 minutes or 2 light cycles without a green light. This seems like far too long if you ask me, so I'll still just run it when I get an open chance like I always have if there's no car to trip the sensor, but it's still progress.