New Street Signs Will Have To Wait

[SidS1045]

The Obama administration is seeking to kill deadlines for states to install new street signs, due to the poor economy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/30/us/30cuts.html

[rarnold]

This seems like one of those "lets change a law to justify our job" situations. There is no reason to bring in the mixed-case street signs. I could see replacing old signs, when they are no longer legible, then yes, but in this case, it is not cost-effective or common sense smart.

[Quillz]

Well the reasoning behind mixed-case streets signs makes sense: it has been shown in studies to help improve long-distance legibility, especially in older drivers. And this is the major reason why Clearview was designed from the start for mixed case application.

But I do agree with you that there is little need to immediately replace perfectly good street signs. When they wear out, sure. But not now.

[Scott5114]

People who feel strongly against this are generally misinformed.

The replacement deadline's never been about the mixed case. It's about amount of retroreflectivity. This deadline has been around for a long, long time (I think the 2003 MUTCD, possibly the Millennium Edition) and governments have had that long to comply with it. The mixed case requirement was added in the 2009 MUTCD but carries no deadline. It's just that governments are following the new MUTCD as they replace signage to comply with the 2003 MUTCD deadline, and reporters look at the new signs and don't realize the increased reflectivity, instead latching on to the more noticeable mixed case.

Also killing a government project because of the bad economy basically goes against everything William Maynard Keynes ever said about economics.

[english si]

Also killing a government project because of the bad economy basically goes against everything William Maynard Keynes ever said about economics.

I think you mean John, but perhaps his brother/nephew/cousin/son Billy made a not very well known economic theory and maybe it works in the real world too, unlike his brother/uncle/cousin/dad's theory.

And I'm fairly sure that Keynes distinguished between types of Government spending, and certain stuff - stuff that encourages trade and consumption - the economy. AFAICS replacing street signs to be retroreflective, while a very useful thing to do, isn't one of those things.

Plus, since when was Keynesianism the only economic theory to follow? OK, I know that many professors (for ideological reasons) don't teach anything else in Economics 101 classes at Ivy League schools, but his theories aren't the only ones.

[Scott5114]

Pff. I suck at remembering names. But really, any government sector spending can stimulate the economy. A new road sign puts food on the table for people in the sign shop, the people at the aluminum company, and the people at 3M (for the sheeting)... Granted it's not as many as a brand new Interstate, but then a new sign only costs the government $20 or $30 whereas new interstate construction involves a lot more money than that.

Keynesianism may not work perfectly in the real world, but then not very much does, and it seems to be the accepted theory to turn to in the United States whenever the economy is doing badly.

Personally I feel that the signs need to be upgraded anyway, political grandstanding and economics aside... Oklahoma uses a lot of engineer grade sheeting, and it's awful. By the time enough light is reflecting off of it that you can make out what it's saying, you're nearly past it. Doesn't do the job anywhere near as well as the prismatic sheetings FHWA is requiring with this mandate.

[mjb2002]

Well the reasoning behind mixed-case streets signs makes sense: it has been shown in studies to help improve long-distance legibility, especially in older drivers. And this is the major reason why Clearview was designed from the start for mixed case application.

Mixed-case for street name signs? Yes.

But, mixed case for the other guide signs? Absolutely not.

[Quillz]

Well the reasoning behind mixed-case streets signs makes sense: it has been shown in studies to help improve long-distance legibility, especially in older drivers. And this is the major reason why Clearview was designed from the start for mixed case application.

Mixed-case for street name signs? Yes.

But, mixed case for the other guide signs? Absolutely not.

I believe studies did show that mixed case positive contrast Clearview was more legible than Series E(M) on guide signs. However, negative contrast Clearview was less legible, which is why only positive contrast has been approved for guide sign usage on an interim basis.

[mjb2002]

Pff. I suck at remembering names. But really, any government sector spending can stimulate the economy. A new road sign puts food on the table for people in the sign shop, the people at the aluminum company, and the people at 3M (for the sheeting)... Granted it's not as many as a brand new Interstate, but then a new sign only costs the government $20 or $30 whereas new interstate construction involves a lot more money than that.

...and, new road signs also bring in new jobs. A minimum of three jobs at the smallest sign shops - and as many as 120,000+ for the sign corporations (3M is an example of a sign corporation).

Keynesianism may not work perfectly in the real world, but then not very much does, and it seems to be the accepted theory to turn to in the United States whenever the economy is doing badly.

Personally I feel that the signs need to be upgraded anyway, political grandstanding and economics aside... Oklahoma uses a lot of engineer grade sheeting, and it's awful. By the time enough light is reflecting off of it that you can make out what it's saying, you're nearly past it. Doesn't do the job anywhere near as well as the prismatic sheetings FHWA is requiring with this mandate.

[mjb2002]

Here is the question that remains unanswered: Say, for example, there is a missing (or stolen) road sign that has never been recovered. Will the new MUTCD requirements apply immediately for the new road sign that goes into the place of where the missing (or stolen) sign was located?

[Quillz]

Here is the question that remains unanswered: Say, for example, there is a missing (or stolen) road sign that has never been recovered. Will the new MUTCD requirements apply immediately for the new road sign that goes into the place of where the missing (or stolen) sign was located?

I believe so, yes. Replacing a sign would require a new sign, and thus it would be bound to either the latest MUTCD or the latest MUTCD that the state honors. At least, I think that's how it works.

[roadfro]

Yes, the new sign would have to follow current MUTCD standards right away. There is an option statement that allows a non-compliant sign or device to be replaced in kind when damaged, missing, or is no longer serviceable, but this applies where engineering judgement determines that a compliant device within an adjacent series of non-compliant devices would be confusing to road users. (2009 MUTCD, Introduction, para 23-24.)

[J N Winkler]

Keynesianism may not work perfectly in the real world, but then not very much does, and it seems to be the accepted theory to turn to in the United States whenever the economy is doing badly.

In the US and to a lesser extent in the UK, Keynesianism has gone out of favor in the last thirty years and been supplanted by monetarism.  I don't think, however, that it is very useful to see the two theories as refutation of each other.  Instead, they encourage policymakers to pursue different policy aims using techniques and policy choices which overlap considerably in practice.  Keynesianism is oriented at maintaining full employment, while monetarism is focused on maintaining stable inflation.  Notwithstanding the rhetorical posturing you might see occasionally in the media, Keynesians don't want runaway inflation while monetarists don't want massive unemployment.

The fundamental idea behind Keynesian stimulus is maintaining full employment (if necessary by expanding public-sector spending) to sustain aggregate demand while awaiting a recovery in business confidence.  What this means is that if no recovery in business confidence is in prospect, a Keynesian can easily turn into a deficit hawk.  Keynes himself, if memory serves, was critical of the post-1936 economic recovery in Britain largely because it was based on spending for rearmament and did not lay the ground for a recovery in the civilian economy.

Personally I feel that the signs need to be upgraded anyway, political grandstanding and economics aside... Oklahoma uses a lot of engineer grade sheeting, and it's awful. By the time enough light is reflecting off of it that you can make out what it's saying, you're nearly past it. Doesn't do the job anywhere near as well as the prismatic sheetings FHWA is requiring with this mandate.

I certainly agree that the need to spend is there.  The underlying problem is that Oklahoma allocates too little to sign replacement, both in good times and in bad.  Timing a considerable amount of the actual sign replacement work to years when it can have a stimulative effect is sound Keynesian economics, but there has to be an adequately funded sign management program which takes into account the costs of sign replacement over multiple years and schedules signing projects so that there is a quality "floor" for guide signing on the freeway system in general.

[agentsteel53]

Oklahoma uses a lot of engineer grade sheeting, and it's awful.

still?  I had thought EG was deprecated to the point that it is not even being marketed by 3G, Oracal, etc.  I know I have to jump through a hoop to buy EG to make accurate replica signs - all the sign companies I work with default to pushing Prismatic High Intensity.

or does ODOT have a huge supply to run out before they switch to prismatic full-time?

[J N Winkler]

Oklahoma uses a lot of engineer grade sheeting, and it's awful.

still?  I had thought EG was deprecated to the point that it is not even being marketed by 3G, Oracal, etc.  I know I have to jump through a hoop to buy EG to make accurate replica signs - all the sign companies I work with default to pushing Prismatic High Intensity.

I think Scott's point was that a high proportion of Oklahoma's freeway guide signs are so old they still have engineer-grade sheeting.  In general, Oklahoma DOT does at most one or two freeway guide sign replacement contracts a year and they tend to be fairly small in scope.  I am not aware that Oklahoma DOT or the OTA use anything less reflective than high-intensity sheeting in new signing.

[agentsteel53]

I think Scott's point was that a high proportion of Oklahoma's freeway guide signs are so old they still have engineer-grade sheeting.  In general, Oklahoma DOT does at most one or two freeway guide sign replacement contracts a year and they tend to be fairly small in scope.  I am not aware that Oklahoma DOT or the OTA use anything less reflective than high-intensity sheeting in new signing.

I getcha.  I'm trying to think if I've even seen any cleaver shields that were not prismatic high intensity.  Maybe I have; I haven't paid all that much attention to the cleavers.

also: "3G"?  I meant "3M".  got a mental hash-table collision with "EG", apparently.

[Scott5114]

That difficulty in getting EG sheeting is pretty much because of the MUTCD mandate. If that didn't exist, I'm sure 3M would be more than happy to sell it to Oklahoma.

(Though I'm not sure it's 3M that OK gets its sheeting from–which sheeting company is it again that embeds the little gray stars into the sheeting?)

[agentsteel53]

(Though I'm not sure it's 3M that OK gets its sheeting from–which sheeting company is it again that embeds the little gray stars into the sheeting?)

honestly, I have no idea.  I've seen the stuff before, though.  does it exist in the prismatic form, too?  I've seen it in CA in the EG form.  Dunno which company makes it, though, but it seems like Safeway Sign was a customer at one point.