What makes a Suburb a town?

[Tom89t]

In Los Angeles, there is a lot cities. When you drive through one you enter another one. Sometime people calls them suburbs of L.A instead of cities.  For example Northridge Ca is like a city but it is within the city limits of Los Angeles so it is a suburb. Hawthorne Ca is a city because it is not within the city limits of L.A. But, is a suburb of the Greater Los Angeles area. A few years ago, the people who live in the San Frenando Valley were trying to split up the Valley from the City of Los Angeles so they can have their own City services. Chicagoland has suburbs with their own city halls. I think suburbs should have their own city goverments.

[NE2]

Usually it's the Easter Bunny's decision.

[roadman65]

What does the street sign have to do with a city being a suburb?  What is the question over all?

[flowmotion]

I believe the US Census definition of a suburb is "more people commute out of than commute into".

At one time, there was a debate whether the city of Saint Paul MN was technically a suburb of Minneapolis, because more people left than St Paul than entered every day, so they may have tweaked the definition since.

The legal definition of a "city" is usually defined by the state constitution or other laws, it could be completely different than colloquial use of the term.

[hobsini2]

Chicagoland has suburbs with their own city halls. I think suburbs should have their own city goverments.

Locally, suburbs are separate cities and towns that are within the Chicago Area (Cook Co, DuPage Co, Lake Co, eastern Kane Co, southern McHenry Co, Kendall Co, and northern/eastern Will Co) but that is the only connection to the city of Chicago. Places such as Joliet, Aurora/Naperville, Elgin, and Waukegan are debatable whether or not they are suburbs or cities on their own.  I live in Bolingbrook that is 28 mi SW of the Loop which is considered Downtown. The closest the city comes to my village is Archer and Harlem Ave. What you describe for LA is what we consider neighborhoods. Chicago has annexed a number of formerly incorporated areas that were once separate towns from the city such as Norwood Park (1893), Edison Park (1910), and Belmont Cragin (1889). However, the town of Norridge, which is completely surrounded by Chicago, is it's own enclave. Here is a current Chicago neighborhood map. http://www.explorechicago.org/etc/medialib/explore_chicago/tourism/pdfs_guides_and_maps/neighborhood_map.Par.32063.File.tmp/Chicago%20Neighborhoods%20Map.pdf
Also notice Chicago does have "East Side" that is really on the southeast side of the city.

[realjd]

In Los Angeles, there is a lot cities. When you drive through one you enter another one. Sometime people calls them suburbs of L.A instead of cities.  For example Northridge Ca is like a city but it is within the city limits of Los Angeles so it is a suburb. Hawthorne Ca is a city because it is not within the city limits of L.A. But, is a suburb of the Greater Los Angeles area. A few years ago, the people who live in the San Frenando Valley were trying to split up the Valley from the City of Los Angeles so they can have their own City services. Chicagoland has suburbs with their own city halls. I think suburbs should have their own city goverments.

What makes a suburb a town? Local law and history. Places like Northridge were annexed by the city of Los Angeles. Other similar places like San Fernando, which is a city completely surrounded by LA, incorporated as a city in thr past and thus and weren't annexed. Some named places don't want to deal with having a city government and thus stay unincorporated.

[realjd]

I believe the US Census definition of a suburb is "more people commute out of than commute into".

At one time, there was a debate whether the city of Saint Paul MN was technically a suburb of Minneapolis, because more people left than St Paul than entered every day, so they may have tweaked the definition since.

The legal definition of a "city" is usually defined by the state constitution or other laws, it could be completely different than colloquial use of the term.

By that definition, a small town in the middle of nowhere with a large manufacturing plant right outside city limits would be a suburb even there is no urban area nearby.

[Brandon]

Chicagoland has suburbs with their own city halls. I think suburbs should have their own city goverments.

Locally, suburbs are separate cities and towns that are within the Chicago Area (Cook Co, DuPage Co, Lake Co, eastern Kane Co, southern McHenry Co, Kendall Co, and northern/eastern Will Co) but that is the only connection to the city of Chicago. Places such as Joliet, Aurora/Naperville, Elgin, and Waukegan are debatable whether or not they are suburbs or cities on their own.  I live in Bolingbrook that is 28 mi SW of the Loop which is considered Downtown. The closest the city comes to my village is Archer and Harlem Ave. What you describe for LA is what we consider neighborhoods. Chicago has annexed a number of formerly incorporated areas that were once separate towns from the city such as Norwood Park (1893), Edison Park (1910), and Belmont Cragin (1889). However, the town of Norridge, which is completely surrounded by Chicago, is it's own enclave. Here is a current Chicago neighborhood map. http://www.explorechicago.org/etc/medialib/explore_chicago/tourism/pdfs_guides_and_maps/neighborhood_map.Par.32063.File.tmp/Chicago%20Neighborhoods%20Map.pdf
Also notice Chicago does have "East Side" that is really on the southeast side of the city.

A contrast between Joliet and Bolingbrook, to use one set of cities (or a village in Bolingbrook's case, but that's a different topic regarding governmental differences in Illinois cities and villages), is the location of "downtown".  A true suburb views its "downtown" as that of the major city.  Bolingbrook does this with the Loop.  By contrast, a satellite city views "downtown" as its own downtown.  Few east of I-55 in Joliet think of the Loop as "downtown".  It's always Joliet's downtown.

[roadman65]

What about New York City having Jersey City next to it?  Jersey City, NJ is the second largest city in New Jersey and therefore you could consider Bayonne a suburb of it. Basically Bayonne, NJ is a suburb of a suburb or a suburb of the one that its larger neighbor is one of.  Remember, Staten Island is part of NYC and Bayonne borders on it with Kill Van Kull in the middle.

Then again, some could say Staten Island could be a suburb as well.  Even though it is part of New York City, it is not like Manhattan and its neighborhoods resemble more of suburbia than urban like settings.

This subject is more opinion than fact.

[corco]

Suburbs can be towns and towns can be suburbs, but suburbs don't have to be towns and towns don't have to be suburbs.

A town is anything with its own municipal government. A suburb is a satellite of a major city.

Generally, development that occurs along the fringe of a major city is suburban. If that happens to be within the incorporation limits of the city, then it's a suburb without being a town. If it's outside of the incorporation limits, it's a town and a suburb.

I don't think there's a lot of rhyme or reason- I'd say older cities are more likely to have incorporated suburbs (towns), as those tend to scatter along rivers. New York would be an obvious exception to that- as certain boroughs could definitely be considered suburbs of Manhattan. Newer cities- Boise comes to mind as an example, have large suburban tracts within the city limits- there are city-suburbs of Boise (Meridian/Eagle/Garden City). Since there wasn't much in Boise but Boise when it started booming, it just annexed a bunch of land without establishing new municipalities.

Since transportation is easier now than it was 100 years ago, there's less need for a ton of small governments- so city expansion can take place by way of land annexation wherever available. Phoenix is an example- there are city suburbs, but if you look at the Phoenix/Glendale/Scottsdale city limit boundaries, it's obvious that in some places simple annexation was preferable to establishing entirely new cities.

I guess if you're asking what makes a suburb a suburb- beyond the sort of dated theory that people commute from the suburbs to the central city (which is entirely untrue at this point - suburb to suburb is by far the largest commute type)- you'd want to go into that area and see if they culturally identify with that city. A Geneva, Illinoisan definitely considers themselves a part of Chicagoland, but somebody in Dekalb likely does not (this may have changed in the last decade- but you get the point). I suppose a simple way to define it would be that as soon as you pass into a predominately rural area, you've passed the fringe of the city's grasp and you're out of the suburbs.

[mgk920]

What about New York City having Jersey City next to it?  Jersey City, NJ is the second largest city in New Jersey and therefore you could consider Bayonne a suburb of it. Basically Bayonne, NJ is a suburb of a suburb or a suburb of the one that its larger neighbor is one of.  Remember, Staten Island is part of NYC and Bayonne borders on it with Kill Van Kull in the middle.

Then again, some could say Staten Island could be a suburb as well.  Even though it is part of New York City, it is not like Manhattan and its neighborhoods resemble more of suburbia than urban like settings.

This subject is more opinion than fact.

Heck, Brooklyn was once a separate city (it would be 4th most populous in the USA if it was still separate) that joined NYC in the 1890s for access to the city's water.  Downtown Brooklyn would be a big-city downtown area in its own right if it was independent and the NBA's New Jersey Nets will be moving to a new arena there next season.

All of those named neighborhoods in Queens were once separate isolated rural communities (all still inside of the City of New York) before the city's urbanity engulfed them during the mid-20th century and the USPS still recognizes them as their own 'cities' for postal purposes.  In NYC, only Manhattan uses the city name of 'New York, NY' for mailing.  The rest of the city uses either the borough name ('Brooklyn, NY', 'Bronx, NY' and 'Staten Island, NY') or the individual neighborhood names in Queens (ie, 'Long Island City, NY', 'Flushing, NY', 'Far Rockaway, NY', etc).

This is similar to all of those Los Angeles city neighborhoods that use city names other than 'Los Angeles, CA' for mailing.

OTOH, all of those named Chicago city neighborhoods use 'Chicago, IL' for mailing.  Ditto the City of Milwaukee areas such as Bay View and Granville, both of which were once outside of the city and annexed to it after being substantially developed), they all use 'Milwaukee, WI' for mailing.

Mike

[xonhulu]

This subject is more opinion than fact.

Exactly.  The terms "city," "town," and "suburb" are all poorly defined, despite what the Census Bureau says.

[Brandon]

This subject is more opinion than fact.

Exactly.  The terms "city," "town," and "suburb" are all poorly defined, despite what the Census Bureau says.

Depends on state.  "City", as well as "village" are very well defined in some states, as is "town" or even "township" (such as "charter township".  'Suburb" is; however, poorly defined by any estimation.

[Stephane Dumas]

The GTA (Greater Toronto Area) had growth a lot. Hamilton who was once a separate city with its own suburbs could be almost today classified as a suburb of Toronto. Will one day, it'll grow to include the WKC (Waterloo-Kitchener-Cambridge) area?

Gatineau is a bit ambigious, it's like an half-city of its own but it's also a half-suburb for being so close to Ottawa.

Then should Windsor, Ontario could be classifield as a suburb of Detroit?

And here a interesting video about Lakewood, CA

[huskeroadgeek]

This subject is more opinion than fact.

Exactly.  The terms "city," "town," and "suburb" are all poorly defined, despite what the Census Bureau says.

Also the terms "city" and "town" can have different definitions depending on what state you are in. In Virginia for instance, only the 39 independent cities are actually "cities"-every other municipality is a "town". In some New England states, a "town" includes several municipalities together and is actually the primary form of government below the state level as counties exist only for geographical purposes. The term "suburb" is usually undefined officially, it's just a general term used for a smaller city near a larger city. But what is a suburb to one person may not be to another. Size doesn't necessarily define it either-Virginia Beach is the largest city in Virginia, yet it really has more of a suburban character to it.

[roadman65]

Baltimore, MD is similar to Virginia with its independent cities not being part of a larger government.  Baltimore is not in any established county by no means.  There is a Baltimore County, but it does not include the city, but only other towns and cities to the North and East of it.

Philadelphia and Philadelphia County, PA are the same.  However, Pennsylvania recognizes both its largest city as sort of independent and yet a county of its own.  I am sure too that they have an official county type of government in addition to its municipal one.  Baltimore, I am sure, does not have both, but only city officials only.

Jacksonville, FL is the perfect example of what Philadelphia is.  It and Duval County, FL are the same enity and corporation.  The Jacksonville Police and Duval Sheriff's office are the same department.  It once started out as a small city, that engulfed its surrounding areas within the county line to be the largest city in Florida.  Orlando, is trying to do the same within its surrounding unincorporated areas as you do have Maitland, Winter Park, and Winter Garden that are already established communities with their own charter as being cities.  It has to do with money, of course here in O Town as that is why Universal Studios got annexed into the Orlando City Limits as well as Lockeed Martin and recently Lake Nona.  However, the city is not in much of hurry to annex Pine Hills, a part of Orange County that borders along the Orlando City Line that is very urban.  That is because the average income is below poverty level in this area and other such issues that is too contreversial to mention on this forum.

In Florida you have lots of areas without municipal establishment all open for grabs, but once a community gets established as a town or city, a larger city cannot annex it.  Windermere, FL is an official town not a city, but it is chartered as its own municipality so Orlando cannot take it over.  States like New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, and Connecticut have all parts of their states being under some sort of municipal control.  That is why you never hear of "City Limits" in these particular states.  Instead you have "Town Lines" and simple borders or lines in these.

Its up to each state how its areas are governed and communities established.  Even counties are by choice as Louisiana chooses to use its regional areas to be called parishes and Alaska having judicial areas with those two respected states not having the name county used.

[empirestate]

I personally make a distinction between the noun "suburb" and the adjective "suburban". A suburb (to me) is a distinct entity from the principal city: either a municipality of its own, or some other distinguishable area that outlies the main city, or "urb" if you will.

The outer neighborhoods of the city proper, on the other hand, I don't call "suburbs" because they are part of the "urb" itself. They may, however, be "suburban" in character, just as the actual "suburbs" may have a more urban character.

But that's just me.   

[xonhulu]

Exactly.  The terms "city," "town," and "suburb" are all poorly defined, despite what the Census Bureau says.

Depends on state.  "City", as well as "village" are very well defined in some states, as is "town" or even "township" (such as "charter township".  'Suburb" is; however, poorly defined by any estimation.

But that's exactly my point, as I'm sure many of those states have different definitions.  There are no set definitions applying to everywhere.

I was once disputed for referring to Vancouver, WA as a suburb of Portland.  We both made good points, and couldn't really settle the point one way or another.  Since Vancouver pre-dates Portland (counting Hudson's Bay Company's Fort Vancouver as the "founding" of the city, it's quite old as a community), it wasn't founded as subsidiary to any town, suggesting it is not a suburb; but since it's now a smaller city adjoining a much larger one, and sizable numbers of people commute in from Vancouver to jobs in Portland (try crossing the Interstate Bridge southbound during morning rush hour if you don't believe me), this would support the argument it is a suburb.  Basically, it's all a matter of semantics, and I doubt you could definitively prove it one way or another.

[empirestate]

But that's not the question...is it? What is the question again?

I think it's "why do some suburban areas incorporate into their own municipalities while others are annexed by the principal city" but I'm not really certain.

[Brandon]

But that's not the question...is it? What is the question again?

I think it's "why do some suburban areas incorporate into their own municipalities while others are annexed by the principal city" but I'm not really certain.

It has to do with state annexation laws and incorporation laws.  Some states make it easy for a large municipality to annex large areas (see Houston, TX).  Some states make incorporation as a charter township easy (see Michigan).

[sp_redelectric]

I don't believe "suburb" is a legal term; rather just a catch-all description of a community that exists outside of a primary city.

In Portland, a "suburb" can describe any number of the incorporated cities surrounding Portland, such as Beaverton, Tigard, Lake Oswego, Milwaukie, Gresham, and even Vancouver (however as xonhulu pointed out, Vancouver did in fact predate Portland but functionally it is a suburb of Portland.)  There are probably 20 separate incorporated "cities" surrounding Portland in Oregon that are the "suburbs" that are self-sufficient cities.  A "suburb" could also describe communities within Portland's corporate limits but removed from the downtown core - such as St. Johns, Lents, Hollywood, Gateway - in many cases these were formerly independent towns that have since been annexed into the City of Portland.)  And it can also describe unincorporated areas such as Aloha, Oak Grove, Raleigh Hills, Cedar Hills, Cedar Mill, Metzger, Clackamas, and Hazel Dell - none of which are cities in themselves with governments, city halls, police and fire departments, but rather dependent upon the county government (they are patrolled by sheriff's patrols, for example.)

[Kacie Jane]

I don't believe "suburb" is a legal term; rather just a catch-all description of a community that exists outside of a primary city.

In Portland, a "suburb" can describe any number of the incorporated cities surrounding Portland, such as Beaverton, Tigard, Lake Oswego, Milwaukie, Gresham, and even Vancouver (however as xonhulu pointed out, Vancouver did in fact predate Portland but functionally it is a suburb of Portland.)  There are probably 20 separate incorporated "cities" surrounding Portland in Oregon that are the "suburbs" that are self-sufficient cities.  A "suburb" could also describe communities within Portland's corporate limits but removed from the downtown core - such as St. Johns, Lents, Hollywood, Gateway - in many cases these were formerly independent towns that have since been annexed into the City of Portland.)  And it can also describe unincorporated areas such as Aloha, Oak Grove, Raleigh Hills, Cedar Hills, Cedar Mill, Metzger, Clackamas, and Hazel Dell - none of which are cities in themselves with governments, city halls, police and fire departments, but rather dependent upon the county government (they are patrolled by sheriff's patrols, for example.)

This is the first post I've seen that hints at what I think is the real answer... $$$.  All those services cost money to provide, and the question of who can most efficiently provide those services is what's really going to determine whether they (a) decide to rely on the county for services, (b) get annexed by the city and rely on them for services, or (c) incorporate and provide their own services.

[yanksfan6129]

Something that I'm surprised has not come up in a discussion of what makes a suburb a suburb: density. Especially housing density. To me, because a suburb is not a defined municipality, it can be used to describe any area in which residential density is at a certain level (I'm not an expert on what this exact level might be, though singe-family detached housing on, say, half-acre lots comes to mind).

As I see it, what constitutes "suburbia" does not NECESSARILY involve rings of commuters surrounding a commercial/industrial core, although this frequently is the case. This is to ensure that a city like Newark, NJ or Paterson, NJ is not counted as a suburb of New York City--both Newark and Paterson are urban in character.

On the other hand, where fits in to my model a city like Hoboken, NJ, which is decidedly upscale with most workers commuting into NYC, yet is definitely more urban in character, with high density. Under the idea of density being key, Hoboken would not be considered suburban--it would count as a traditional urban area. But is it fair, even though the environment is urban, to consider Hoboken a regional core?

[Chris]

Suburb / suburban is mostly the same in my opinion. While the term "suburb" often points to cities outside the central city, often both the central city and the suburb are mostly suburban in character. For instance Plano is a suburb of Dallas, even though Dallas is maybe 80% suburban too (i.e. single-family detached housing). As a matter of fact most U.S. metropolitan areas are nearly entirely suburban in character, except for some older cities along the east coast.

Suburbs do not necessarily have to be low-density, especially not in international context. For instance most suburbs of Korean cities consist of high-rise apartment blocks. Or the Paris inner belt of suburbs, which are mostly rundown social housing apartment buildings. Suburban areas in the Netherlands are usually administered as a part of the core city. Even in the U.S. some suburban areas are surprisingly urban. For instance if you drive the Dallas North Tollway and you think "hey, are we in Oklahoma City already?" but then you realize this is just the suburban skyline of Addison.

[kphoger]

Etymologically speaking, the suburbs are where people reside just outside of a town or city.
Sub = Below or Near
Urb = City
The term can be traced back to the 14th Century.  In the case of walled cities, it would be the area outside the city walls.  By the time of Shakespeare (who used the word in Twelfth Night), the term had a decidedly negative connotation, as the suburbs were where theives, prostitutes, and vagabonds dwelt.

In any case, by this definition, the terms town and suburb are mutually exclusive.  But this is not how the term is used in today's English.  Take, for example, the movie Wayne's World (the authority on cultural norms):  Toward the begninning of the movie, Wayne Campbell states, 'I live in Aurora, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago – excellent'.  Aurora is, in fact, Illinois's second-largest city, with a population of roughly 200 000, and its downtown is about forty miles west of Chicago's downtown.  It is certainly nothing like Austin, which was incorporated into Chicago in 1899; or Oak Park, which may as well be.  Yet nobody batted an eye at Wayne's statement that Aurora is a suburb of Chicago, because that's how the term is generally used.