Minneapolis, MN questions

[mgk920]

There is a ghost ramp to NB I-35W, right under the pedestrian bridge one block south of Broadway St, in the image:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&ll=44.995807,-93.237298&spn=0.00871,0.013797&t=k&z=16

Was this ramp once planned to connect to a cross-river freeway to feed into what is now I-394?  Also, what is the story on what I-35W's aspirations were with regards to its wide median, sharp curve and overpowered connection to Johnson St a few blocks to the north?

Mike

[NE2]

http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/minnesota/cancelled/i335.htm (the maps are cropped too much to see what the Johnson Street connection was intended for, if anything)

[froggie]

http://www.ajfroggie.com/roads/minnesota/rant/minneapolis-freeways.gif (hot-linking disabled, so manually go to it)

[Coelacanth]

As has been pointed out, the ghost ramp was to accomodate the never-built I-335.

An additional reason for the sharp curve is that 35W was originally conceived to replace US 8 along what is now New Brighton Blvd. When that routing was shot down (fairly early in the process) what would have been a diagonal route was forced to take on essentially two 90 degree turns.

[mgk920]

Thanx!

Mike

[froggie]

I don't think that routing ever existed.  Dating back at least to 1951, the plan for I-35W did not involve following New Brighton Blvd.  In fact, prior to about 1959, the plan was to follow the present-day alignment from I-94 to about 8th St SE, turn east into the Como neighborhood, cross Hennepin Ave at about 25th Ave SE, then turn northward to rejoin the present-day alignment near the Industrial Blvd/St Anthony Pkwy interchange.  The present-day alignment wasn't proposed until 1959.

An interchange at Johnson St NE wasn't propsed until 1964...and at that time it was an elaborate 3-way semi-directional interchange that partially overlapped the split diamond at New Brighton Blvd/Stinson Blvd.  Reason for this is because there was a proposed freeway at the time running north between Johnson St and Central Ave, that was to serve as a MN 65 replacement.  This freeway was deemed unnecessary later in the 1960s.

[Coelacanth]

I don't think that routing ever existed.  Dating back at least to 1951, the plan for I-35W did not involve following New Brighton Blvd.  In fact, prior to about 1959, the plan was to follow the present-day alignment from I-94 to about 8th St SE, turn east into the Como neighborhood, cross Hennepin Ave at about 25th Ave SE, then turn northward to rejoin the present-day alignment near the Industrial Blvd/St Anthony Pkwy interchange.  The present-day alignment wasn't proposed until 1959.

Well, yes. I don't think the New Brighton Blvd alignment ever got past the discussion stage, but local opposition to it was well-known.

[Alps]

More questions. I've got a route to clinch all the 3-digit interstates and a few other state highways in the area. (I have some more digging to figure out whether these are clinches or just one of a few segments, in each case. And in some cases, whether I'm going to be on a current state highway or a former one.)
* Is there any button copy left in the Minneapolis area?
* Besides the ghost ramp to 35W, any other stubs? I can't tell what's going on near the eastern end of 394.
* Any interesting bridges? I'm heading over to Stillwater, that's the only one I have pegged. I'm not concerned with Washington Ave. bridge.
* What is the progress of MN 610 west of CR 81? Is there any construction/earthworks to see beyond that point? (It's not opening in the next two months, right?)

Just a matter of curiosity - was MN 110-62 Crosstown Hwy. ever intended to be the southern part of the I-494 beltway?

[froggie]

Is there any button copy left in the Minneapolis area?

I wasn't aware of there being any button copy in the Metro to begin with.  Certainly not in the last 20 years.

Besides the ghost ramp to 35W, any other stubs? I can't tell what's going on near the eastern end of 394.

What few other stubs existed have since been taken out by construction.  Could you elaborate more on the east end of 394?

Any interesting bridges? I'm heading over to Stillwater, that's the only one I have pegged. I'm not concerned with Washington Ave. bridge.

- Between Nicollet Island and St. Anthony Main on Merriam St across a secondary channel of the Mississippi is a through truss bridge, which was part of the original Broadway Bridge further upstream, built in 1889.  When the Broadway Bridge was replaced in the 1980s, they shipped a span of it down to Nicollet Island for this bridge.
- The new I-35W bridge is interesting in its own right, especially at night when they light it up.
- There are several concrete arch bridges in the region, including the 10th Ave Bridge over the Mississippi (adjacent to I-35W), the MN 55 Mendota Bridge over the Minnesota River (very viewable from underneath at Fort Snelling State Park), and the Robert Street bridge in downtown St. Paul.
- The MN 77 Cedar Ave Bridge over the Minnesota River is a tied-arch bridge.
- The US 61 Hastings Bridge is in the process of being replaced.  The current bridge is a through truss that used to be painted blue (not sure if it still is).
- Nearby Hastings, the US 10 bridge at Prescott, WI is a drawbridge...there aren't very many in the area.

What is the progress of MN 610 west of CR 81? Is there any construction/earthworks to see beyond that point? (It's not opening in the next two months, right?)

No construction west of CSAH 81.  Though I believe some preliminary utility work was done as part of an earlier project, MnDOT does not currently have funding to extend the freeway to I-94.

Just a matter of curiosity - was MN 110-62 Crosstown Hwy. ever intended to be the southern part of the I-494 beltway?

MN 110 to the east of I-35E was an early (pre-1960) candidate for I-494's routing, but I-494 was always intended for the 78th Street corridor between Bloomington and Richfield.

Also, MN 110 is not part of the "Crosstown Highway" and has never been called such.  "Crosstown Hwy" only refers to MN 62 and dates back to its construction as a county route...MnDOT didn't take it over until 1988.

[J N Winkler]

Is there any button copy left in the Minneapolis area?

I wasn't aware of there being any button copy in the Metro to begin with.  Certainly not in the last 20 years.

The Coen brothers film Fargo (1996) shows, at one point, an interchange sequence sign which references TH 100 and appears to be button copy.  Signs in films are usually unreliable, but I think this particular film was shot on location.

[agentsteel53]

The Coen brothers film Fargo (1996) shows, at one point, an interchange sequence sign which references TH 100 and appears to be button copy.  Signs in films are usually unreliable, but I think this particular film was shot on location.

I don't believe I've ever seen button copy in Minnesota; then again, I've only started looking around 2006, and my scouring of the Twin Cities is somewhat less than extensive. 

I am quite sure there is none in Duluth, as I've driven a lot of the roads in that city.

[froggie]

The signs in the movie Fargo were indeed the real thing...shot from a car dealership on the south side of I-394.  But if those guide signs were button copy at the time, they definitely are not anymore.

[Mdcastle]

Button Copy: I'm a bit older than Froggie and I don't recall seeing any in the metro either. Metro BGSs used to be illuminated matte, now they're non-illuminated reflective. Maybe 25 years ago there was still quite a bit of it out of state but that's all gone now. Midwest tends to replace signage more often than other areas of the country I've seen, maybe the harsh winters degrade them faster.

Bridges: If you like abandonded stuff theirs a old deck truss bridge in Shakopee that's now open as a pedestrian bridge, the Old Cedar Bridge is a through truss that's now closed and about ready to fall into the swamp. There's ongoing argument about whether to restore it or demolish it and build something fresh. Also there is the Hennepin Ave suspension bridge, and the Sabo cable-stayed bicycle bridge over Hiawatha (though this is not in a nice area of town). Another unique ped bridge is over I-94 by Loring park. A couple of 1930s overpasses on MN 100 in St. Louis Park that are going to be replaced.

I second the recommendation of the I-35W bridge. There was some critisism of the blandness of the design but I think it's beautiful in it's on way and it doesn't clash visually with it's neighbors. The least that can be said is it was the best of the designs submitted. Besides the changable color LEDs lighting up the underneath it was the first use of LED roadway lighting on an Interstate highway. The Ferry Street bridge looks old but was actually substantially rebuilt recently.

MN 100 was the pre-interstate attempt at a beltway. It used to completely circle the Twin Cities, but large portions got obliterated by I-494 and I-694, and remaining portions were renumbered 110 and 120.

[Alps]

Thanks everyone for the history lessons! I'll be coming in on US 10 over the rare drawbridge and I'll try to sneak some of these other bridges in. For froggie, the east end of I-394 just has a tremendous tangle of ramps, such that I can't tell if it was intended to be extended northeast across the river as a freeway. There's also a long ramp coming into that same general area from the west, and I was wondering if that was supposed to be extended to the east/southeast as anything.

[mgk920]

Thanks everyone for the history lessons! I'll be coming in on US 10 over the rare drawbridge and I'll try to sneak some of these other bridges in. For froggie, the east end of I-394 just has a tremendous tangle of ramps, such that I can't tell if it was intended to be extended northeast across the river as a freeway. There's also a long ramp coming into that same general area from the west, and I was wondering if that was supposed to be extended to the east/southeast as anything.

The first part was part of my original question in this thread.  I poked around those HUGE parking tamps when it was all under construction back in the late 1980s and then did some drive-throughs a couple of years later after it all opened.  I can safely say that there are no stubs in that ramp tangle.  Yes, it does have the 'feel' of something that once had loftier ambitions - and those two long ramps to/from I-94 to the north (originally marked as 'US 52') appeared to fit in with those 'ambitions' (those ramps predate the I-394 inward extension by nearly a decade).  In addition, there were even a couple of stubs on those ramps near where they feed into the downtown streets that were connected to/from another parking ramp a few years after those ramps opened - and they also pointed in the right direction to connect into such a northeastward continuation of I-394.

There is also a Metro Transit express bus station under those parking ramps using additional ramps that feed into and from I-394, adding to that 'tangle'.

BTW, my favorite freeways in the MStP area include US 52 southward from I-94 from downtown Saint Paul into the south suburbs and the 'freeway-light' Ayd Mill Road running northward from I-35E in southwest Saint Paul.  I-35E SW of I-94 in Saint Paul is an interesting ride, too.

Enjoy!

Mike

[Mdcastle]

A couple of random road-geeky things I thought of:
The Grand Rounds Scenic Byway.
The Super-2 section of US 12
The Cedar Lake Trail "bicycle freeway"

Things to skip:
Most of the freeway bridges not mentioned here are non-descript girder bridges. (Bloomington Ferry, Lafayette, I-35W over the Minnesota, Richard Braun Bridge, etc.)
I personally don't find US 52 particularly interesting except for the view from the Lafayette Bridge and the rather underpowered interchange at the north end. MN 100 is kind of interesting since it evolved over 80 years instead of being built in one piece, but a lot of the really old stuff between I-394 and Brooklyn Blvd was obliterated a few years ago when the last signals were removed. They did salvage a few of the lilacs and replanted them. The MN 7 / MN 100 interchange was the last place I saw externally ballasted mercury fixtures, but they're long gone. I don't find MN 62 that interesting; just a suburban freeway that ranges from interstate standard to well below interstate standard with not much too see along the way except noise walls and houses.

If you like active construction zones two are at US 169 at I-494, and MN 13 where it turns south in Savage.

I-394 is best experienced as a carpool driving down the carpool lanes eastbound, soaring over the I-94 interchange, and then descending into the I-94 tunnel. But if you're alone the second best view is  late in the day heading east when the golden setting sun is reflected off the skyscrapers. Also if you head on I-94 eastbound past I-35W south there is a short additional tunnel you go through. I-35W south of downtown is more interesting nortbound because of the driving on the left shoulder being allowed for carpools and Mn/PASS at certain times north of 42nd.

[froggie]

and the Sabo cable-stayed bicycle bridge over Hiawatha (though this is not in a nice area of town).

It's not that bad of an area during the day.

For froggie, the east end of I-394 just has a tremendous tangle of ramps, such that I can't tell if it was intended to be extended northeast across the river as a freeway.

It wasn't.  Long before I-394 planning began in earnest, it was intended as the "3rd Avenue Distributor" and never seriously considered to cross the river.  This is in part because during most of the planning horizon, the river crossing planning was for I-335.  BTW, while signs have I-394 ending at 6th St, the route log has it ending at Washington Ave...and I used the latter for Clinched Highway Mapping.

There's also a long ramp coming into that same general area from the west, and I was wondering if that was supposed to be extended to the east/southeast as anything.

Those are the 3rd/4th St ramps to/from I-94 West that MGK mentioned.  Same situation...they were never intended for anything more.

MDcastle has some good suggestions, especially the other bridges mentioned and the Super-2 on US 12 around Long Lake.

[mgk920]

The next time that I find myself in the MStP area, my roadgeeking plans include checking out the re-engineered MN 62 (Crosstown Connector)/I-35W area, the new US 212 freeway from the Crosstown into the outer southwest suburbs (when is it expected to directly connect with the four-lanes out by Norwood-Young America?) and that new US 12 Long Lake 'Super-2'.

I'd also check out the progress on the transit line construction on University Ave between the UM campus in Minneapolis and the Capitol in Saint Paul as well as on the DT Saint Paul streets, including a ride on the already open Hiawatha line.

Mike

[froggie]

the re-engineered MN 62 (Crosstown Connector)/I-35W area

Advice from a local:  there is no "Connector".  MN 62 is the Crosstown Highway.  Where it conjoins with I-35W is the Crosstown Commons.

the new US 212 freeway from the Crosstown into the outer southwest suburbs (when is it expected to directly connect with the four-lanes out by Norwood-Young America?)

When MnDOT can somehow magically find the money.  Given their current finances, it's a long-term unfunded item.

[Coelacanth]

It wasn't.  Long before I-394 planning began in earnest, it was intended as the "3rd Avenue Distributor" and never seriously considered to cross the river.  This is in part because during most of the planning horizon, the river crossing planning was for I-335.  BTW, while signs have I-394 ending at 6th St, the route log has it ending at Washington Ave

I think you mean 4th St, not 6th St. But you're right that it was never intended to extend farther than Washington.

Other things of potential interest that nobody has mentioned:
The opening-later-this-year-sometime new Lowry Ave bridge
There is extensive work being done on the I-694/MN-51/US-10 interchange in Arden Hills. So far it's mostly just grading, but you can already start to see where some of the new alignments are going to go.
For that matter, the 694/35E interchange completed a few years ago is worth a look if you have experience with the old one

[froggie]

I think you mean 4th St, not 6th St.

Right....thanks.

[The High Plains Traveler]

It wasn't.  Long before I-394 planning began in earnest, it was intended as the "3rd Avenue Distributor" and never seriously considered to cross the river.  This is in part because during most of the planning horizon, the river crossing planning was for I-335.  BTW, while signs have I-394 ending at 6th St, the route log has it ending at Washington Ave

I think you mean 4th St, not 6th St. But you're right that it was never intended to extend farther than Washington.

Other things of potential interest that nobody has mentioned:
The opening-later-this-year-sometime new Lowry Ave bridge
There is extensive work being done on the I-694/MN-51/US-10 interchange in Arden Hills. So far it's mostly just grading, but you can already start to see where some of the new alignments are going to go.

That is the worst interchange design I can envision. Even at the time this was completed (late 1960s?) it must have been a total POS for through I-694 traffic, with the requirement to merge to the left lane eastbound.

For that matter, the 694/35E interchange completed a few years ago is worth a look if you have experience with the old one

You mean the frantic two-lane shifts by both I-694 and I-35E traffic who intended to stay on the same highway? So nice to see these horrible interchanges have finally been reconstructed, years after I move away

[Mdcastle]

The Silverdale Bridge is another new (but old) roadgeeking thing to do in the Twin Cities. It was built in 1877 in Sauk Centre, moved in 1937 to a very remote area of Highway 65, and finally moved to the Twin Cities as a pedestrian crossing of the Gateway Trail over Manning Ave. It was the last single lane bridge on the trunk highway system.

Also finally saw the question about the Old Cedar Bridge and the Shakopee bridge: The old bridge in Shakopee is really easy to get to. There's free parking on the street in downtown Shakopee, and you can walk across the bridge. The north side of the Old Cedar Bridge is also easy to get to, just drive down to the southern end of Old Cedar Ave in Bloomington and a free parking lot and the bridge are right there. The south side is incredibly hard to get to. The bridge is completely closed, to get to the south side you have to hike several miles over muddy trails in Bloomington, or park in a parking across thr river in a lot that you have to pay a fee for at a different location followed by walking across the river on the pedestrian walkway adjacent to the New Cedar Bridge. I live in Bloomington and I haven't been there since they closed it...