City Freeway Teardowns: More on Their Way?

[Zmapper]

Google tells me that it is only about 3-4 miles from I-610 to Downtown New Orleans. I count four major roads, Broad, Galvez, Claiborne, and Rampart. Each road has about 2 lanes in each direction, and considering only 300,000 people live in New Orleans, what exactly is doom-and-gloom concern about? It isn't like you can't take another parallel road, considering there are four of them within about 1.5 miles.

And they all go through not-so-desirable neighborhoods with ridiculously high murder and other crime rates. Do you REALLY want to drive on those streets? Through those neighborhoods?

Transportation dollars should NEVER be used for the sole purpose of pandering to racists who don't want to drive through the area with the other-colored people. From a sole capacity standpoint, the Claiborne could come down without drastic traffic effects.

Perhaps with traffic travelling at more appropriate speeds, people might be more inclined to shop at the businesses of those in the neighborhood. Perhaps with people stopping at those businesses, the employer would have to hire more people to deal with the new demand. Perhaps with more people employed legally, the desire to acquire funds through other, more illegal means would go down. Perhaps with more people receiving an employment paycheck instead of a welfare check, the government of New Orleans and Louisiana could be able to deal with other, more pressing needs.

Now, do YOU want to be paying for their welfare or would you like the now-unnecessary funds back as a tax break? You tell me.

[realjd]

Google tells me that it is only about 3-4 miles from I-610 to Downtown New Orleans. I count four major roads, Broad, Galvez, Claiborne, and Rampart. Each road has about 2 lanes in each direction, and considering only 300,000 people live in New Orleans, what exactly is doom-and-gloom concern about? It isn't like you can't take another parallel road, considering there are four of them within about 1.5 miles.

And they all go through not-so-desirable neighborhoods with ridiculously high murder and other crime rates. Do you REALLY want to drive on those streets? Through those neighborhoods?

No ghetto in the United States is so bad that driving down a major through street is dangerous.

[bugo]

Google tells me that it is only about 3-4 miles from I-610 to Downtown New Orleans. I count four major roads, Broad, Galvez, Claiborne, and Rampart. Each road has about 2 lanes in each direction, and considering only 300,000 people live in New Orleans, what exactly is doom-and-gloom concern about? It isn't like you can't take another parallel road, considering there are four of them within about 1.5 miles.

And they all go through not-so-desirable neighborhoods with ridiculously high murder and other crime rates. Do you REALLY want to drive on those streets? Through those neighborhoods?

Transportation dollars should NEVER be used for the sole purpose of pandering to racists who don't want to drive through the area with the other-colored people. From a sole capacity standpoint, the Claiborne could come down without drastic traffic effects.

He's talking about dangerous neighborhoods, not race.  You're the one who brought up race, therefore if anybody is racist it is you.  Dangerous neighborhoods can be made up of many different races.  Nice to see you believe that all bad neighborhoods are black and all black neighborhoods are bad.

Perhaps with traffic travelling at more appropriate speeds, people might be more inclined to shop at the businesses of those in the neighborhood. Perhaps with people stopping at those businesses, the employer would have to hire more people to deal with the new demand. Perhaps with more people employed legally, the desire to acquire funds through other, more illegal means would go down. Perhaps with more people receiving an employment paycheck instead of a welfare check, the government of New Orleans and Louisiana could be able to deal with other, more pressing needs.

What is an "appropriate speed?"  If we all drove at your "appropriate speeds," it would take a week to get across the country and the roads would be a clogged mess.  And fresh goods would never make it across the country.

[bugo]

Google tells me that it is only about 3-4 miles from I-610 to Downtown New Orleans. I count four major roads, Broad, Galvez, Claiborne, and Rampart. Each road has about 2 lanes in each direction, and considering only 300,000 people live in New Orleans, what exactly is doom-and-gloom concern about? It isn't like you can't take another parallel road, considering there are four of them within about 1.5 miles.

And they all go through not-so-desirable neighborhoods with ridiculously high murder and other crime rates. Do you REALLY want to drive on those streets? Through those neighborhoods?

No ghetto in the United States is so bad that driving down a major through street is dangerous.

Have you ever driven through East Saint Louis at night?  I ddin't think so.

[F350]

No ghetto in the United States is so bad that driving down a major through street is dangerous.

The neighborhoods change at night; I dare you to drive through 'em at night. And by night, I mean at 3 AM.

[Anthony_JK]

Google tells me that it is only about 3-4 miles from I-610 to Downtown New Orleans. I count four major roads, Broad, Galvez, Claiborne, and Rampart. Each road has about 2 lanes in each direction, and considering only 300,000 people live in New Orleans, what exactly is doom-and-gloom concern about? It isn't like you can't take another parallel road, considering there are four of them within about 1.5 miles.

And they all go through not-so-desirable neighborhoods with ridiculously high murder and other crime rates. Do you REALLY want to drive on those streets? Through those neighborhoods?

Transportation dollars should NEVER be used for the sole purpose of pandering to racists who don't want to drive through the area with the other-colored people. From a sole capacity standpoint, the Claiborne could come down without drastic traffic effects.

Perhaps with traffic travelling at more appropriate speeds, people might be more inclined to shop at the businesses of those in the neighborhood. Perhaps with people stopping at those businesses, the employer would have to hire more people to deal with the new demand. Perhaps with more people employed legally, the desire to acquire funds through other, more illegal means would go down. Perhaps with more people receiving an employment paycheck instead of a welfare check, the government of New Orleans and Louisiana could be able to deal with other, more pressing needs.

Now, do YOU want to be paying for their welfare or would you like the now-unnecessary funds back as a tax break? You tell me.

First off...I'm Black, and I respect the people of Treme, but I oppose the removal of the Claiborne Elevated. And, I am a citizen of the state of Louisiana. Please don't attempt to patronize us.

Claiborne Ave. still exists there as a surface arterial along with I-10, and is easily accessible from all corners, so that's not an issue for businesses.

The reason why I-10 was built there was NOT to "destroy" Treme, but as a compromise after the original Riverfront Expressway proposal was axed due to severe opposition from other neighborhoods. It serves as the main access to downtown NOLA, the Superdome, the French Quarter, and, with its connections with the Westbank Expressway via the Crescent City Connection, the WB communities of Algers, Gretna, Marrero, and others. In other words, it's npt just about Treme here.

Also, plenty of Black folk iin NOLA live east of the Industrial Canal, and use the Claiborne to commute downtown. I guess they're racist, too?

Job creation within a neighborhood is affected by a combination of things, not just "travelling at more appropriate speeds". If a business has what people demand at an affordable price, then they will attract customers regardless of whether an Interstate is nearby.  In fact, better to have a high-capacity facility nearby so that more people can access that business.

Plus, there's nothing that says that Treme couldn't be revived without keeping the Claiborne intact. Alexandria sure hasn't been hurt with I-49 being elevated passing through the middle of their city.


Anthony

[realjd]

Have you ever driven through East Saint Louis at night?  I ddin't think so.

No, but I do know a number of people who have frequented East St. Louis's various adult establishments late into the night without issue. Said adult entertainment venues wouldn't exist if the roads leading to them from nicer parts of town were that dangerous. One of them was mugged though when he tried to walk across the street from one of them to a gas station to buy some smokes.

No ghetto in the United States is so bad that driving down a major through street is dangerous.

The neighborhoods change at night; I dare you to drive through 'em at night. And by night, I mean at 3 AM.

I'm not talking about driving through back roads, or going for a stroll. I'm talking about driving through on a major through street or highway.

[agentsteel53]

Have you ever driven through East Saint Louis at night?  I ddin't think so.

or even some parts of regular St. Louis.  I was once scouring for signs, and within 10 minutes or so of each other, I saw - first, a guy sitting on a lawn chair in the middle of the street, openly dealing drugs, and second, a guy blowing a four-way stop at over 80-90mph, heading straight that way.

oh, and no old signs.  bugger.

[kphoger]

Have you ever driven through East Saint Louis at night?  I ddin't think so.

or even some parts of regular St. Louis.  I was once scouring for signs, and within 10 minutes or so of each other, I saw - first, a guy sitting on a lawn chair in the middle of the street, openly dealing drugs, and second, a guy blowing a four-way stop at over 80-90mph, heading straight that way.

oh, and no old signs.  bugger.

East Saint Louis:  We're talking about, say, Route 15 or Route 3.  These are the thoroughfares.  Those would be pretty safe at any time.  Venture off the main roads after dark, though, and you're in a different world.  I used to make deliveries in ESL.

Saint Louis:  I once had a layover at about 4:00 AM back when the Greyhound station was at 13th & Cass.  I stepped out to the street to see where I could get some breakfast, and a homeless man asked me what I was doing there at that time of day.  He offered to personally escort me to White Castle, keeping the folks on the corners away, if I would buy him breakfast.  But that's a totally different situation than simply driving down a road that's busy enough to be a viable alternative to a freeway.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

I'm just waiting for everyone's innercity/urban slum photos as evidence that we're all not racist.   

[kphoger]

I'm just waiting for everyone's innercity/urban slum photos as evidence that we're all not racist.   

So, a picture of any rough neighborhood that is predominantly Mexican, Korean, or Vietnamese would also fit the bill, right?  Or are all those people black too?

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

I'm just waiting for everyone's innercity/urban slum photos as evidence that we're all not racist.   

So, a picture of any rough neighborhood that is predominantly Mexican, Korean, or Vietnamese would also fit the bill, right?  Or are all those people black too?

Are you black?

[bugo]

I'm just waiting for everyone's innercity/urban slum photos as evidence that we're all not racist.   

So, a picture of any rough neighborhood that is predominantly Mexican, Korean, or Vietnamese would also fit the bill, right?  Or are all those people black too?

What about white ghettos?  There are more poor whites than all other races combined.

[kphoger]

I'm just waiting for everyone's innercity/urban slum photos as evidence that we're all not racist.  

So, a picture of any rough neighborhood that is predominantly Mexican, Korean, or Vietnamese would also fit the bill, right?  Or are all those people black too?

Are you black?

Nope, white.  Shoot, my youngest son's hair is practically clear!  My father's parents were born in Germany and Holland; my mom was adopted, so I don't know her blood line; by adoption, she's mainly English and Irish, being distantly related to both Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr (there's a history lesson for ya!).

My wife is mainly Polish and Swedish.  Blonde as blonde gets, pretty much.

[realjd]

I'm just waiting for everyone's innercity/urban slum photos as evidence that we're all not racist.   

So, a picture of any rough neighborhood that is predominantly Mexican, Korean, or Vietnamese would also fit the bill, right?  Or are all those people black too?

What about white ghettos?  There are more poor whites than all other races combined.

Considering that whites are a > 50% majority, it's stands to reason that there are more whites in any statistical category than all minorities combined.

[Zmapper]

A sort of "white ghetto" would be the stereotypical "trailer-trash" mobile home park. While the MHPs around here are clean, and nobody is sitting in the street dealing drugs or has 10 non-functional cars in the front yard, you do want to keep an eye out after sundown.

What I find interesting is that Five Points, also called "Harlem of the West" for the predominant skin color in both locations, cleaned up a ton. Before about the mid 90s, no white person admittedly wanted to be in that neighborhood after night. RTD built light rail to Five Points in 1994, and after that the drug and gang presence left the area. While most suburban dwellers still hold previous views about the neighborhood, surprisingly the neighborhood still retains the positive parts of its character with the druggies pushed out elsewhere.

The new "druggie and gansta hood" is now... Montbello, a 50s suburb halfway to the airport! It too shows signs of neglect and divestment. Montbello happens to border an active industrial district and the former Stapleton Airport, so perhaps it has just always been a working class community.

[kphoger]

A sort of "white ghetto" would be the stereotypical "trailer-trash" mobile home park. While the MHPs around here are clean, and nobody is sitting in the street dealing drugs or has 10 non-functional cars in the front yard, you do want to keep an eye out after sundown.

But, typically, MHPs wouldn't be a top alternate route for a freeway teardown...

[flowmotion]

US 71 in Kansas City is a perfect example of why we shouldn't be tearing down freeways.  While a freeway wasn't torn down, a proper one wasn't built and now there's a deadly stretch of road in the middle of a perfectly safe freeway.  The neighborhood it goes through is split in two even more than it would be if a full freeway had been built, and the noise and exhaust gases that cars sitting at lights emit are polluting these neighborhoods.  Serves them right.  It would be karma if every last one of them got cancer from exhaust gas.  They have blood on their hands from all the fatal accidents on this stretch of highway.

To be fair, if it was up to those neighbors, none of the US71 freeway would have been built (or it would be entirely torn down), rather than just omitting their small section. In return for their adamance, they got the worst of all worlds: a six-lane divided highway with high traffic figures and very few amenities to counter. Essentially the FU treatment.

Many other 'highway revolts' around the country had far better outcomes, and this is nothing like the New Orleans situation where there's a perfectly serviceable freeway a short distance away that could still serve downtown-bound traffic.

[Brandon]

Google tells me that it is only about 3-4 miles from I-610 to Downtown New Orleans. I count four major roads, Broad, Galvez, Claiborne, and Rampart. Each road has about 2 lanes in each direction, and considering only 300,000 people live in New Orleans, what exactly is doom-and-gloom concern about? It isn't like you can't take another parallel road, considering there are four of them within about 1.5 miles.

And they all go through not-so-desirable neighborhoods with ridiculously high murder and other crime rates. Do you REALLY want to drive on those streets? Through those neighborhoods?

No ghetto in the United States is so bad that driving down a major through street is dangerous.

Ever been to Chicago?

[mcdonaat]

For the Claiborne Elevated (yes, I'm a Louisiana citizen too), why not take I-10 and shift it onto I-610? Once you do that, you remove the Claiborne Elevated, designate the current I-10 stretch from the 610 split to the Dome as US 90 Business (I-49 future), and leave it at that? Not much through traffic takes 10, mostly 610, from what I recall. Traffic heading from Texas to MS takes I-10 then I-12, then I-10 again. Traffic from Metairie and Houma to Slidell takes I-10 and I-610, then back onto I-10.
The only major intersections you would need along Claiborne Avenue are at Tulane, Orleans, Esplanade, and St. Bernard. The whole US 71 in KC situation is unique because it's in the middle of a freeway... this would be extending I-49 to the 10/610 split, and adding slip ramps from 49 south (actually going north) to 610 east. Nobody's advocating the complete removal of I-10 between the two 610 ends, just the removal of the Claiborne elevated section. Just my 2 cents!

[bsmart]

Google tells me that it is only about 3-4 miles from I-610 to Downtown New Orleans. I count four major roads, Broad, Galvez, Claiborne, and Rampart. Each road has about 2 lanes in each direction, and considering only 300,000 people live in New Orleans, what exactly is doom-and-gloom concern about? It isn't like you can't take another parallel road, considering there are four of them within about 1.5 miles.

And they all go through not-so-desirable neighborhoods with ridiculously high murder and other crime rates. Do you REALLY want to drive on those streets? Through those neighborhoods?

No ghetto in the United States is so bad that driving down a major through street is dangerous.

Driving might not be but stopping at a traffic signal can be.  From the spray and hassle kids (try to not pay them off and see what happens) to the occasional police chases and random gunfire.

[agentsteel53]

Ever been to Chicago?

of course.  even got out and snapped photos.

as I was driving in an '89 Escort, they figured I was too poor to afford drugs and/or a mugging.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

Google tells me that it is only about 3-4 miles from I-610 to Downtown New Orleans. I count four major roads, Broad, Galvez, Claiborne, and Rampart. Each road has about 2 lanes in each direction, and considering only 300,000 people live in New Orleans, what exactly is doom-and-gloom concern about? It isn't like you can't take another parallel road, considering there are four of them within about 1.5 miles.

And they all go through not-so-desirable neighborhoods with ridiculously high murder and other crime rates. Do you REALLY want to drive on those streets? Through those neighborhoods?

No ghetto in the United States is so bad that driving down a major through street is dangerous.

Ever been to Chicago?

Yes. I like the blues clubs on the southside of town.

[brownpelican]

I'm black too and I didn't just say that about those neighborhoods to start up something. I was just telling it like it is.

For the record, I-10 didn't destroy Treme. The city destroyed parts of it with the 60s urban renewal projects....in the area of Louis Armstrong Park. The neighborhood itself - bordered by St. Louis Street, North Broad, Esplinade Avenue and North Rampart Street - aren't doing badly. Heck, many whites have moved into Treme below I-10.

It's also worth mentioning that the Iberville Projects are on both sides of I-10 just off Orleans Avenue.

[ftballfan]

What these folks, the freeway-teardown folks, forget is that not only does automobile traffic use these roads, but truck traffic does as well.  They seem to think the traffic will magically move to public transit once the freeway is gone.  It's very wrong.  Through traffic and truck traffic still needs to get from point A to point B.  And these center city folks who want the teardowns seem to forget that these trucks can bring good to their markets quickly and cheaply with the freeways.  Without them, the good take longer, and they will be more expensive.

Extremely important point that the anti-highway industry (including the tear-down people) prefer to ignore.

Even the things they buy at their neighborhood Whole Foods come in a vehicle that rolls down the road on rubber tires.

I agree 100% with you here.