Signage pet peeves

[CentralCAroadgeek]

I really hate how Salinas uses Clarendon on its signs, especially that they do it so ugly.

[J N Winkler]

On Wichita's street blades, they use the hundred block rather than the actual reference point.  So, rather than street blades on both sides of 21st Street North saying 2200 N (by which I could safetly assume houses south of it will be between 2100 and 2199, while houses north of it will be between 2200 and 2299), signs on the south side say 2100 N and signs on the north side say 2200 N.  It confused the heck out of me when we first moved here.

Sometimes the blades with block numbers are not always on the correct block--for example, I took a walk just now and discovered that the 1600 N blade for West Street is actually on the 1700 N block.

Each of us tends to think of the conditions that prevailed when we grew up as normative.  I grew up in Wichita, so I am used to the street and block numbering conventions:  numbered street always gives its number to the "in" block rather than the "out" block, addresses are always N, W, S, or E, blocks are numbered in integer multiples of 100, block identifiers on street name blades always refer to addresses on the street on the blade rather than an intersecting street, etc.  Before Google Maps made it possible to localize and preview street addresses more precisely, it was always a significant adjustment to deal with a new city departing from one or more of these conventions.  I have been in cities where street blades reference the block numbers of the intersecting streets, where street addresses are always NW, SW, SE, or NE, where numbered streets give their numbers to the "out" rather than the "in" block, the block numbering increment is something other than 100, etc.

[bulkyorled]

I really hate how Salinas uses Clarendon on its signs, especially that they do it so ugly.

I agree, I dunno who thought that was a good idea.

[The High Plains Traveler]

On Wichita's street blades, they use the hundred block rather than the actual reference point.  So, rather than street blades on both sides of 21st Street North saying 2200 N (by which I could safetly assume houses south of it will be between 2100 and 2199, while houses north of it will be between 2200 and 2299), signs on the south side say 2100 N and signs on the north side say 2200 N.  It confused the heck out of me when we first moved here.

Sometimes the blades with block numbers are not always on the correct block--for example, I took a walk just now and discovered that the 1600 N blade for West Street is actually on the 1700 N block.

Each of us tends to think of the conditions that prevailed when we grew up as normative.  I grew up in Wichita, so I am used to the street and block numbering conventions:  numbered street always gives its number to the "in" block rather than the "out" block, addresses are always N, W, S, or E, blocks are numbered in integer multiples of 100, block identifiers on street name blades always refer to addresses on the street on the blade rather than an intersecting street, etc.  Before Google Maps made it possible to localize and preview street addresses more precisely, it was always a significant adjustment to deal with a new city departing from one or more of these conventions.  I have been in cities where street blades reference the block numbers of the intersecting streets, where street addresses are always NW, SW, SE, or NE, where numbered streets give their numbers to the "out" rather than the "in" block, the block numbering increment is something other than 100, etc.

I also grew up believing it "standard" that house numbering would jump to the next 100 in subsequent blocks. Thus, Pasadena (CA) always seemed weird in that, between blocks, house numbering would continue to increase without a jump. So, going in one direction the street sign would indicate 720 and in the other direction it would indicate 728. Minneapolis goes by 100s, while St. Paul is continuous. Now I live in an area where street numbering can give you fits because both directional prefixes and suffixes can apply to the same street. Thanks to the same developers who assigned streets the worst Spanish names possible.

[J N Winkler]

This raises an interesting question:  whose idea was it to have blocks numbered in increments of 100 and in general to "overcrowd" the space of possible addresses (each block typically has four to five times as many possible addresses as it has houses)?  This is a very New World thing if not strictly American--in Europe, for example, house numbers tend to be allocated consecutively from the start of the street (though it seems to be universal to keep the odds and evens on consistent sides of the street).

[formulanone]

I noticed residential areas tend to number consecutively from 1 or from 100 in the Huntsville, Alabama area. It seems a lot of older communities also did this, from my experience growing up in the Northeast.

I suppose the non-consecutive numbers were later used in the cases where larger office buildings, or rows of suites/bays, apartments, townhomes, etc could then fit inside "the grid" without disrupting the numerical pattern, yet allowing enough room to denote that a contiguous range of numbers signified the same building or complex.

[kphoger]

I was speaking not of addresses jumping when they cross the street, but that the street blade does not actually say the imaginary street address at the corner.  21st Street North in Wichita is the imaginary 2200 line; to me, blades on both sides of the street should say 2200 N.  But, they don't: ones on the south side say 2100 N, while ones on the north side say 2200 N.  That's my pet peeve.

[Scott5114]

This raises an interesting question:  whose idea was it to have blocks numbered in increments of 100 and in general to "overcrowd" the space of possible addresses (each block typically has four to five times as many houses as it has possible addresses)?  This is a very New World thing if not strictly American--in Europe, for example, house numbers tend to be allocated consecutively from the start of the street (though it seems to be universal to keep the odds and evens on consistent sides of the street).

I imagine this came into being when the thought occurred to have numbered streets form the addressing scheme–that is, 89th Street starts the 8900 block. Following from that, incrementing by 100 each block and thus having "too many addresses" falls out of the system naturally. The question is where does that convention arise from–and if I had to guess, I'd imagine Manhattan.

[texaskdog]

Stupid Control Cities on overhead signs.  Every "north US 183" sign within Austin says "Lampasas".  How about "Cedar Park" the far northwest suburb?.  All north 35 signs say "Waco" instead of Dallas-Fort Worth.  South 183 signs say "Lockhart" instead of "Airport".  Sometimes they get it right...South 35: San Antonio, East 290: Houston, West 290: Fredricksburg.

[Kacie Jane]

I imagine this came into being when the thought occurred to have numbered streets form the addressing scheme–that is, 89th Street starts the 8900 block. Following from that, incrementing by 100 each block and thus having "too many addresses" falls out of the system naturally. The question is where does that convention arise from–and if I had to guess, I'd imagine Manhattan.

Can't be, as Manhattan street addresses don't follow that convention (they're more or less consecutive).  Queens addresses do, however.

[Scott5114]

Hm. Chicago, maybe? If not I have no idea where the practice started.

[adt1982]

My biggest pet peeve at the moment is missing signs.  Here in the Litchfield area there are numerous signs along state-maintained highways that are missing.  Some have been gone for months.

These are all different types of signs.  Off the top of my head I know at least one of each of the following is missing.

IL 127 where it splits from IL 16
Historic US 66 shield
Speed limit sign
Road crossing sign
No Passing Zone sign
Speed zone ahead sign

A couple of the missing signs are right up or down the road from the local IDOT building. 

[J N Winkler]

I was speaking not of addresses jumping when they cross the street, but that the street blade does not actually say the imaginary street address at the corner.

Actually, they do, if they are installed correctly.  To recycle your example, if you are on the north side of 21st Street, the street blade will say 2200 N and the first address on the intersecting street will be a low 2200 number, whereas if you are on the south side, the street blade will say 2100 N and the first address on the intersecting street will be a high 2100 number (actually not that high--probably around 2150 since house numbers in Wichita modulus 100 tend not to be greater than 50).

Your objection, as I understand it, is not really to the block numbering scheme per se but rather the fact that the block reference on a street name blade is not a grid reference relating to an edge (in this case, the centerline of the street).  While I can understand this point of view, there are difficulties with the counterfactual case you outline.  If the blades said 2200 N on both sides of the street, this would obscure the fact that 21st Street functions as the northern edge of the 2100 N blocks, since 2200 is not a simple integer multiple of 21.  The "grid reference" on the blade would match the addresses on the block where it is located only about half the time.  It would also require drivers to rely on other cues (such as having passed other numbered streets in an ascending or descending direction) to sort out which side of the street has the lower-numbered blocks.  While this concern would be largely technical in the case of 21st Street, it would not be so in the case of east-west streets which are not numbered within Wichita (such as Central, Douglas, Maple, Lewis, McCormick, Lincoln, Harry, Pawnee . . .).  Another wrinkle is that Central "changes number" as it wends its way around the confluence of the Big and Little Arkansas Rivers (west of the Big River, it is the dividing line between the 600 N and 700 N blocks; east of there it is the dividing line between the 400 N and 500 N blocks).

Hm. Chicago, maybe? If not I have no idea where the practice started.

It may very well have started in Chicago.  I suspect the idea was probably pushed by one or more of the city planning associations when City Beautiful progressivism was at its apogee, and this may explain why the concept has propagated among so many cities in the US.

[kphoger]

Your objection, as I understand it, is not really to the block numbering scheme per se but rather the fact that the block reference on a street name blade is not a grid reference relating to an edge (in this case, the centerline of the street).  While I can understand this point of view, there are difficulties with the counterfactual case you outline.  If the blades said 2200 N on both sides of the street, this would obscure the fact that 21st Street functions as the northern edge of the 2100 N blocks, since 2200 is not a simple integer multiple of 21.  The "grid reference" on the blade would match the addresses on the block where it is located only about half the time.  It would also require drivers to rely on other cues (such as having passed other numbered streets in an ascending or descending direction) to sort out which side of the street has the lower-numbered blocks.  While this concern would be largely technical in the case of 21st Street, it would not be so in the case of east-west streets which are not numbered within Wichita (such as Central, Douglas, Maple, Lewis, McCormick, Lincoln, Harry, Pawnee . . .).  Another wrinkle is that Central "changes number" as it wends its way around the confluence of the Big and Little Arkansas Rivers (west of the Big River, it is the dividing line between the 600 N and 700 N blocks; east of there it is the dividing line between the 400 N and 500 N blocks).

Exactly.  I was used to Chicago's system, in which, for example, street blades on both sides of 63rd Street say 6300 S (http://goo.gl/maps/pL3R).  To me, that made total sense, especially if a street splits the "100 block".  Let's say Street X is the imaginary 3550 North line; in Chicago, street blades on both sides of Street X would say 3550 N.  In Wichita, however, a street blade facing an intersecting street would say 3500 N and, if I were to be turning and looking for a house numbered 3512, I wouldn't know which way to turn.

In the example here (http://goo.gl/maps/v9mH), you are looking from a point that's actually approximately 630 North; notice that the sign blade says 500 N.  This is apparently Wichita's practice when a street splits a "100 block".

My biggest pet peeve at the moment is missing signs.  Here in the Litchfield area there are numerous signs along state-maintained highways that are missing.  Some have been gone for months.

These are all different types of signs.  Off the top of my head I know at least one of each of the following is missing.

IL 127 where it splits from IL 16
Historic US 66 shield
Speed limit sign
Road crossing sign
No Passing Zone sign
Speed zone ahead sign

A couple of the missing signs are right up or down the road from the local IDOT building. 

US-60, back before it was four lanes all the way across central Missouri, was missing a lot of No Passing Zone signs.  So, traffic counts were high enough to warrant four-laning, yet passing was a bit dicey due to missing signs.  There were a few times I remember passing a truck at dusk or after dark, only to find out the solid yellow line had unexpectedly started, then headlights appear over the horizon.....CRAP!

[golden eagle]

I don't know what font it uses, but the lower-case L used on signs on I-565 throughout Huntsville are hideous!

[roadfro]

I was speaking not of addresses jumping when they cross the street, but that the street blade does not actually say the imaginary street address at the corner.  21st Street North in Wichita is the imaginary 2200 line; to me, blades on both sides of the street should say 2200 N.  But, they don't: ones on the south side say 2100 N, while ones on the north side say 2200 N.  That's my pet peeve.

In the Las Vegas area, Reno area and much of Nevada, your pet peeve is the norm for street blades. A street name sign will indicate the block number on which it is located, not the exact address at which the sign is located. So, using your example of 21st Street being the imaginary line of 2200 north, a blade on the south side would give a block number of N 2100 while the north side says N 2200. Blades in Nevada don't use an arrow or other symbol to determine direction of increasing numbers.

I've always thought this method to be helpful in determining which direction I need to turn to find an address at a major intersection. Having the block number the same on both sides doesn't give me any indication which way to go. This is also helpful in navigating certain areas of Las Vegas where the block number jumps--a peculiar case, caused partially by the diagonal downtown street grid mashing with the public land survey street grid, makes E. Charleston Blvd the dividing line between the N 00 block and S 1100 block for a significant distance.

[The High Plains Traveler]

It may very well have started in Chicago.  I suspect the idea was probably pushed by one or more of the city planning associations when City Beautiful progressivism was at its apogee, and this may explain why the concept has propagated among so many cities in the US.

Chicago was one of the first cities developed as the population expanded westward that had streets aligned along a section line grid. This gave a rational grid, usually with 8 or 10 blocks per mile, upon which to impose a numbering system where the lowest number in each block was a multiple of 100.

[OCGuy81]

Another  peeve:  States  that  don't put  the latest  population  figures on the city limits signs.  This  helps  if you're  driving thru  unframiliar territory.  Actually,  hardly any states  do this, but they  should.

Might be off topic, but California is the only place I really notice the population and elevation pretty consistently signed.  I agree, it's nice to have.

As far as my pet peeve goes, it's when a highway has what I like to call a "silent partner" where a mutliplex is poorly signed or not signed at all.  Probably too many examples to list, but one that come to mind from various travels:

- US 90 actually follows I-10 all the way through Houston, but I don't think there is any signage to indicate this, especially on a BGS.

[Scott5114]

As far as my pet peeve goes, it's when a highway has what I like to call a "silent partner" where a mutliplex is poorly signed or not signed at all.  Probably too many examples to list, but one that come to mind from various travels:

- US 90 actually follows I-10 all the way through Houston, but I don't think there is any signage to indicate this, especially on a BGS.

This happens a lot, especially in states like Arkansas.

Oklahoma likes to cover its butt in cases like this by posting a BGS like "{270} EAST FOLLOW (40) EAST NEXT ## MILES".

[Brandon]

It may very well have started in Chicago.  I suspect the idea was probably pushed by one or more of the city planning associations when City Beautiful progressivism was at its apogee, and this may explain why the concept has propagated among so many cities in the US.

Chicago was one of the first cities developed as the population expanded westward that had streets aligned along a section line grid. This gave a rational grid, usually with 8 or 10 blocks per mile, upon which to impose a numbering system where the lowest number in each block was a multiple of 100.

With the sole exception of the area between Madison and 31st Street, it is always 8 blocks to the mile (Madison to Roosevelt (12th) - 12; Roosevelt to Cermak (22nd) - 10; Cermak to 31st - 9).

[apeman33]

I was speaking not of addresses jumping when they cross the street, but that the street blade does not actually say the imaginary street address at the corner.  21st Street North in Wichita is the imaginary 2200 line; to me, blades on both sides of the street should say 2200 N.  But, they don't: ones on the south side say 2100 N, while ones on the north side say 2200 N.  That's my pet peeve.

We differ, then. To me, it makes sense that the street sign indicates the block of the street the sign is on. So if we're talking about 21st North intersecting an imaginary Robinson St with Robinson defining the break between blocks, then it makes sense to me that the blade for Robinson St. on the SOUTH side of that intersection says 2100N. If BOTH blades say 2200N, then I might assume that Robinson is a street wedged into the grid in the middle of a block and I'm not where I want to be.

But as I've lived in four different cities and traveled through many more, I've learned you can't count on the street sign, anyway. There are too many ways to display a block number and many different ways to define a block. Heck, yesterday, I helped my roomate pick up a piece of furniture she bought from someone on the south side of Pittsburg. She was supposed to find a house on the 800 west block of Euclid. She turned on Euclid and I saw buildings with 700 addresses on my side of the street, so I told her she had to turn around. She asked why. Turned out she was looking at houses with 800 addresses. The south side of that block was numbered in the 700s and the north side was the 800s. I don't know if that exists anywhere else in Pittsburg and it's the first time I've ever seen that without something like a side street jogging or maybe a T-intersection in the middle of the block.

EDIT: Went back and looked at that street today. It's actually at least a 2 1/2-block stretch of out-of-sync addresses. The first half of the 500 block is OK. Then there's a cross street that only goes north, so the block changes on the north side of the street to 600 but stays 500 on the south. At the next intersection, instead of jumping both sides of the block to 700, only the north side goes up; the south sides goes to 600. I didn't go past the 700-south-800-north-side block to see if the pattern continued. Since that's divided by Georgia St., which goes all the way from 12th down to Quincy (about three miles), I'd think that's a major enough street to correct this unusual situation and jump both sides of the street to 900.

[Brandon]

^^ I've only seen that situation where two municipalities abut the same street.  An odd one exists between Joliet and Crest Hill (IL) along Theodore Street (IL-7).  Both sides of the street are even numbers.  Joliet uses even numbers on the south side of a street, and Crest Hill uses even numbers on the north side of a street.  Fortunately, there are few addresses along Theodore that could conflict.

[vtk]

Exit direction signs posted way upstream from the exit.  It seems like newer installations put the exit direction sign about at the beginning of the taper that begins the exit lane; I think the best place for the sign would be about halfway between there and the gore. 

Also, ODOT is bad at recognizing when they need to be more specific about the locations of entrance ramps.  Sometimes there's another street right before the ramp, and it's not obvious whether that right-turn-only lane is for the ramp or for the side street.  And then there's OH-13 SB approaching I-71... A half mile before the entrance ramps is a sign saying on two lines "Cleveland [up arrow] / Columbus [right arrow]" but there's no right turn.  An up-then-right bent arrow probably would be better, or better still, up-then-slight-right.  Anyway, just after that sign is an intersection where the off-ramp from I-71 SB comes in from the left; no turns.  Then there's a traffic light for a local road on the left. Then a right-turn-only lane appears, which runs up to the next traffic light – another local road. Finally, just before reaching the I-71 bridge itself, is the ramp to I-71 South and Columbus, which is duly marked with an overhead exit-direction sign.  That initial sign a half-mile upstream is rather misleading, and would only be appropriate if the local roads weren't there. I think it's rather likely that whoever drew up those sign plans either ignored or wasn't aware of the presence of the local roads. Similar signage flaws exist all over Ohio.

[Dr Frankenstein]

Agreed, vtk. That issue has made me miss my exit a few times.

And I have mixed feelings about states that put TWO exit direction signs, one before and one after the gore, the second being overhead most of the time. I've mostly seen that in Canada.

[agentsteel53]

Oklahoma likes to cover its butt in cases like this by posting a BGS like "{270} EAST FOLLOW (40) EAST NEXT ## MILES".

that is a very Minnesota thing to do as well.  I believe US-52 exists entirely under I-94 and there are signs at each end of the state to reflect that.