new freeways for NJ

[qguy]

I should probably just stick to being a straight man. But I can't, I can't...

This forum is a welcoming and open environment for people of all sexualities and genders.

Y'know, I thought about that angle even as I was typing that. Wondered if anyone would pick up on it.

Now I know. 

[mgk920]

Another problem with the alignments along Exit 40 was the proximity of ramps from I-95 and ramps at PA 413. No matter what configuration was examined for a PA 413 interchange, geometry problems were too great to be overcome. Weaving and sight distance became unworkable. And the local access at  PA 413 needs to be maintained.

As someone who takes that exit every day, I appreciate keeping that local access, too!
My understanding was that one of the reasons for Exit 40 being as massive as it is, was that it was supposed to be the endpoint of I-895, which would have crossed the Delaware River and connected to I-295 at the other end. From what I read about it, it seemed the reason why that never happened was mostly political bs between Bristol and Burlington (and perhaps some NIMBYism as well). I'm guessing that back when I-895 was planned, there would have been less properties to take than there would be for some sort of extension today?

Would it be possible to mitigate parkland takings in the same manner that wetland takings can be mitigated?

Mike

[qguy]

Any chance we could get a I-295/Turnpike Extension (Future I-95) interchange? Pretty please with sugar on top?

I have not heard of any plans. Perhaps someone else knows otherwise and can inform. Such an interchange would indeed be useful.

[qguy]

Another problem with the alignments along Exit 40 was the proximity of ramps from I-95 and ramps at PA 413. No matter what configuration was examined for a PA 413 interchange, geometry problems were too great to be overcome. Weaving and sight distance became unworkable. And the local access at  PA 413 needs to be maintained.

As someone who takes that exit every day, I appreciate keeping that local access, too!
My understanding was that one of the reasons for Exit 40 being as massive as it is, was that it was supposed to be the endpoint of I-895, which would have crossed the Delaware River and connected to I-295 at the other end. From what I read about it, it seemed the reason why that never happened was mostly political bs between Bristol and Burlington (and perhaps some NIMBYism as well). I'm guessing that back when I-895 was planned, there would have been less properties to take than there would be for some sort of extension today?

Would it be possible to mitigate parkland takings in the same manner that wetland takings can be mitigated?

Not that I can see. The alignment from the PA 413 interchange to the PATP Delaware Valley interchange cuts right through the middle of Silver Lake Park. There's no way to do it without essentially killing the park.

This was one of the things that killed this alignment even back in the '60s. It will likely never be on the table again. Which is OK even in my not-very-sympathetic-to-extreme-environmentalism book.

[qguy]

Another problem with the alignments along Exit 40 was the proximity of ramps from I-95 and ramps at PA 413. No matter what configuration was examined for a PA 413 interchange, geometry problems were too great to be overcome. Weaving and sight distance became unworkable. And the local access at  PA 413 needs to be maintained.

As someone who takes that exit every day, I appreciate keeping that local access, too!
My understanding was that one of the reasons for Exit 40 being as massive as it is, was that it was supposed to be the endpoint of I-895, which would have crossed the Delaware River and connected to I-295 at the other end. From what I read about it, it seemed the reason why that never happened was mostly political bs between Bristol and Burlington (and perhaps some NIMBYism as well). I'm guessing that back when I-895 was planned, there would have been less properties to take than there would be for some sort of extension today?

It became apparent during the design process that the PA 413 exit alignment could not be utilized without eliminating the local access at PA 413. Since the local access was crucial in that location, that was just another nail in the coffin of any of the options using that alignment.

The I-895 proposal for crossing into Jersey would've provided a freeway-to-freeway connection (with local access on both sides of the Delaware River), essentially replacing the severely obsolete Burlington-Bristol Bridge. Some kind of replacement was (and still is) desperately needed, IMO. It was finally killed, though, in 1989 when Burlingtonians voted against it in what was seen as a last chance for public support (even though those on the PA side supported it.) If I recall correctly, those in Burlington thought it would be too disruptive. It would certainly have been a useful connection.

PennDOT has no plans to resurrect the proposal. Although there would've been fewer takings back then, there has been significant development in the area of the alignment and today there would be far too many takings to make it viable.

I-895 would've diverged from I-95 slightly south (west, in real geographic terms) of the PA 413 interchange ramps. You can still see ROW for one of the loop ramps on Bing or Google Maps aerial images. Or go to <www.historicaerials.com> and select 1965 and 1970 for images from those years. (That website features a handy-dandy slide feature you can activate that allows you to see both historic and contemporary images and easily go from one to the other.)

Unfortunately, even when I worked at the PennDOT District 6 office (which would've overseen the design of the facility), I was never able to locate a diagram of the configuration of the proposed I-95/895 interchange.

The images from Historical Aerials also reveal that I-95 was constructed straight in to PA 413 before it was revised and the alignment from there up to the Scudders Falls crossing was constructed.

[Alps]

I-895 would've diverged from I-95 slightly south (west, in real geographic terms) of the PA 413 interchange ramps. You can still see ROW for one of the loop ramps on Bing or Google Maps aerial images. Or go to <www.historicaerials.com> and select 1965 and 1970 for images from those years. (That website features a handy-dandy slide feature you can activate that allows you to see both historic and contemporary images and easily go from one to the other.)

Unfortunately, even when I worked at the PennDOT District 6 office (which would've overseen the design of the facility), I was never able to locate a diagram of the configuration of the proposed I-95/895 interchange.

The images from Historical Aerials also reveal that I-95 was constructed straight in to PA 413 before it was revised and the alignment from there up to the Scudders Falls crossing was constructed.

Wow, that's some really informative history! I never knew that I-895 would have gone south. From what I can see, the 895N-95S and 95N-895S movements wouldn't exist, and neither would the 413-95N and 95S-413 movements. (Those would occur at the next interchange up.) The loop would be 413-895S, and 895N-413 would have come in where the current 95S-413 ramp does more or less.

[qguy]

Yes, I-895 would've been approximately perpendicular to I-95, angling from NW to SE, and crossing the Delaware River at a 90º angle (which I suppose is typical for large bridges–no duh).

[Compulov]

Not that I can see. The alignment from the PA 413 interchange to the PATP Delaware Valley interchange cuts right through the middle of Silver Lake Park. There's no way to do it without essentially killing the park.

This was one of the things that killed this alignment even back in the '60s. It will likely never be on the table again. Which is OK even in my not-very-sympathetic-to-extreme-environmentalism book.

The images from Historical Aerials also reveal that I-95 was constructed straight in to PA 413 before it was revised and the alignment from there up to the Scudders Falls crossing was constructed.

Historic Aerials and the scans that the USGS has on their website are great resources in general for seeing the evolution of the highway system. I spent hours on end a few weeks ago looking at maps from the 40s-90s of lower bucks county, watching the evolution of US 1 and 95 especially. I only wish we had high resolution images from back then like we have from Google and Bing over the last several years.

I had suggested the I-295/Turnpike Extension interchange since with the completion of the 95/PA Turnpike Interchange, one half of the work needed to replace the I-895 proposal would be complete. I can only hope that the NJTA isn't petty enough to think that by making the connection that they'd be losing any significant business. As someone who crosses the river daily, I see 295 and the Turnpike as having very different roles. When I take the Burlington Bristol Bridge and head to 295, it's for trips which don't make sense to take the Turnpike. It'd just be nice to be able to cut several traffic lights off my trip. It'd also potentially bring in some more revenue to both the NJ and PA Turnpikes, as they'll have that one-way toll over the bridge as it is. I'm not sure what they'd have to do on the NJ side to handle the end of the ticket system, though, since it'd occur after the barrier toll plaza. I guess even if they went with just a double trumpet, it'd be way better than no interchange at all.

[roadman65]

I have a question about NJ pushing mass transit.  If NJDOT want you to use trains instead of cars, why did Christie kill the NJ Transit Tunnels under the Hudson River then?  That needs to be as the NE Corridor is loaded with trains as well as the old Penn Tunnels only having two tubes and two tracks.  During rush hour it is timed that every five minuets a train crosses under the Hudson River.

[NE2]

Because Christie is a teabagger. Duh.

[hbelkins]

Because Christie is a teabagger. Duh.

So you have personal knowledge of the governor's sexual habits?

[Roadgeek Adam]

I have a question about NJ pushing mass transit.  If NJDOT want you to use trains instead of cars, why did Christie kill the NJ Transit Tunnels under the Hudson River then?  That needs to be as the NE Corridor is loaded with trains as well as the old Penn Tunnels only having two tubes and two tracks.  During rush hour it is timed that every five minuets a train crosses under the Hudson River.

Because the proposal was going to fail, we were going to be stuck with 100% of the bill, overruns through the roof, etc.

Even NJ Transit workers have said it was not a great project.

[roadman65]

I have a question about NJ pushing mass transit.  If NJDOT want you to use trains instead of cars, why did Christie kill the NJ Transit Tunnels under the Hudson River then?  That needs to be as the NE Corridor is loaded with trains as well as the old Penn Tunnels only having two tubes and two tracks.  During rush hour it is timed that every five minuets a train crosses under the Hudson River.

Because the proposal was going to fail, we were going to be stuck with 100% of the bill, overruns through the roof, etc.

Even NJ Transit workers have said it was not a great project.

Maybe the proposed extension of the NYC Subway to Secaucus Transfer may be a better reality. 

[english si]

Very common, that these "odd sounding" municipality names are merely the surname of some person.

Given surnames back in the day were based on jobs, what on earth did the guy who named here do for a job.

It's not obvious in English, but if his native tongue was another language, it may have been job-related in that language.

emoticon goes woosh.

The place is called Wetwang - like Fucking, Austria, it would be an amusing surname, especially if linked with a job (and being pretty blatently English meaning 'a moist penis' as Douglas Adams suggested). However, it's not named after some person and his surname - it's perhaps Norse-Saxon hybrid for Wet Field, but there's other possibilities that are wholly Norse.

Most odd place names don't come from surnames, but gave surnames. Pennsylvania is named after William Penn, who sur-named himself after a wrongful claim to be a part of the family that once owned Penn, Buckinghamshire. They were 'of Penn' in days of yore. Penn is 'hill' in Brythonic languages like pre-Roman British (and modern day Welsh).

[Lyle]

Because Christie is a teabagger. Duh.

So you have personal knowledge of the governor's sexual habits?

ROTFLMFAO!

[cpzilliacus]

I have a question about NJ pushing mass transit.  If NJDOT want you to use trains instead of cars, why did Christie kill the NJ Transit Tunnels under the Hudson River then?  That needs to be as the NE Corridor is loaded with trains as well as the old Penn Tunnels only having two tubes and two tracks.  During rush hour it is timed that every five minuets a train crosses under the Hudson River.

Because the proposal was going to fail, we were going to be stuck with 100% of the bill, overruns through the roof, etc.

A passenger rail transit project that comes in even close to the original construction cost is an extreme rarity in the United States.  I can think of only one that did - the original San Diego County, California "Tijuana Trolley" line from downtown to San Ysidro.

Even NJ Transit workers have said it was not a great project.

I recall reading that most of the money to fund construction cost overruns was going to be funded out of increased tolls on the New Jersey Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway, since the New Jersey Transportation Trust Fund is effectively broke.

[cpzilliacus]

I have a question about NJ pushing mass transit.  If NJDOT want you to use trains instead of cars, why did Christie kill the NJ Transit Tunnels under the Hudson River then?  That needs to be as the NE Corridor is loaded with trains as well as the old Penn Tunnels only having two tubes and two tracks.  During rush hour it is timed that every five minuets a train crosses under the Hudson River.

Because the proposal was going to fail, we were going to be stuck with 100% of the bill, overruns through the roof, etc.

Even NJ Transit workers have said it was not a great project.

Maybe the proposed extension of the NYC Subway to Secaucus Transfer may be a better reality.

Maybe, though if I were a New Jersey elected official, I would be on the lookout for massive increases in construction cost after any project to extend the 7 Subway line to Secaucus is approved and under construction.

[YankeesFan]

how about build a new interstate standard highway from I-95 in Hopewell to I-80 somewhere...

[roadman65]

how about build a new interstate standard highway from I-95 in Hopewell to I-80 somewhere...

We are getting too much  into fictional highways here, but I suggested in one fictional forum that I-295 should be extended as relief route to NJ 31.

[hbelkins]

Because Christie is a teabagger. Duh.

So you have personal knowledge of the governor's sexual habits?

ROTFLMFAO!

The proper term is "Tea Partier" or more appropriately, "Tea Party movement supporter." There is no political party called the Tea Party. It infuriates the hell out of me to see the term "teabagger," which refers to a sexual practice, used in this manner.

At any rate, Christie is not a popular person within the Tea Party movement. He's viewed as having several positions which are inconsistent with Tea Party principles, including some of his judicial appointments and his positions on 2nd Amendment issues.

[Roadgeek Adam]

Why does everyone want Jersey to have new freeways? This state doesn't have much room, Trenton has too many people with political power, especially in the important areas. Pardoning Hudson County and the shore, we're not exactly bursting at the seams. People may disagree with me, but I don't picture any new freeways in our lifetime.

[NE2]

Because Christie is a teabagger. Duh.

So you have personal knowledge of the governor's sexual habits?

Yep. I was one of his teabaggees.

[YankeesFan]

Why does everyone want Jersey to have new freeways? This state doesn't have much room, Trenton has too many people with political power, especially in the important areas. Pardoning Hudson County and the shore, we're not exactly bursting at the seams. People may disagree with me, but I don't picture any new freeways in our lifetime.

there is plenty of room along and around the NJ 31 corridor...yeah some farmland and whatnot will be lost, but they should have thought about that 50 years ago before they let development run rampant and now wondering why the 50 year old roads can't handle 2012 traffic!

guess you've never been on US 206 or NJ 31, i mean face, NJ is not a farm land state anymore, it's a major metro hub between NY and Philly...it's time to let go of the garden state pipe dream.

[roadman65]

Why does everyone want Jersey to have new freeways? This state doesn't have much room, Trenton has too many people with political power, especially in the important areas. Pardoning Hudson County and the shore, we're not exactly bursting at the seams. People may disagree with me, but I don't picture any new freeways in our lifetime.

there is plenty of room along and around the NJ 31 corridor...yeah some farmland and whatnot will be lost, but they should have thought about that 50 years ago before they let development run rampant and now wondering why the 50 year old roads can't handle 2012 traffic!

guess you've never been on US 206 or NJ 31, i mean face, NJ is not a farm land state anymore, it's a major metro hub between NY and Philly...it's time to let go of the garden state pipe dream.

I have to agree.  NJ is my home and always will be, but sprawl has ruined everything.  I remember what US 9 was like in Manalapan before the strip malls came in.  Heck, US 1 in North and South Brunswick was rural up until 1988.  What happens is you have one developer build and another one wants to get in on the action and compete.  The next thing you know you have sprawl until nothing is left like CR 537 between Six Flags and Freehold.

I remember back in the early 80's when an office building was put up on Campus Drive in Somerset. It took months to rent out as there were too many buildings around already and many of them were unoccupied at the time. It has  become the corporate  state and needs new roads to fit the needs of today's demands.

So we need new freeways, bypasses, etc. to handle the increase of people.   Remember, New Jersey is the most populated state per square mile.  Like one said here on this forum, NJ is basically one giant suburb of New York and Philadelphia.

[swbrotha100]

I remember being there around the time the northern 20 miles of I-287 was opened. That "missing link" was a big deal when it finally opened in 1993. That and the northern end of NJ 21 are the only brand new freeways I remember opening in the last 20 years in Jersey (unless I'm missing something).