Hockey

[Alps]

My ideal NHL would be:
St. John's, Halifax, Fredericton, Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton [Canada East]
Boston, New York, New Jersey, Buffalo, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit [U.S. East]
Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, Seattle, Minneapolis, Chicago [West]

Now of course, this doesn't account for the little matter of attendance, especially in the Canadian cities. But call it Fictional NHLways.

[Brandon]

My ideal NHL would be:
St. John's, Halifax, Fredericton, Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton [Canada East]
Boston, New York, New Jersey, Buffalo, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit [U.S. East]
Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, Seattle, Minneapolis, Chicago [West]

Now of course, this doesn't account for the little matter of attendance, especially in the Canadian cities. But call it Fictional NHLways.

The Canadians tend to fill their arenas far more often than the southern and western US cities do.  Nashville, Columbus, Tampa, LA, Phoenix (and others0 could probably all lose their teams and it wouldn't matter much.  However, I would add Denver to your West.  Colorado is as hockey crazy as Minnesota or Michigan.

[DTComposer]

However, I would add Denver to your West.  Colorado is as hockey crazy as Minnesota or Michigan.

The numbers don't bear that out. Colorado's attendance the last six seasons has averaged 87.2%, only getting above 90% once.

If you kept just the top 16 teams in average home attendance since 2005-2006, you get something like this:

EAST: Boston, NY Rangers, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh
NORTH: Buffalo, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
CENTRAL: Chicago, Detroit, Edmonton, Minnesota
WEST: Calgary, Los Angeles, San Jose, Vancouver

(cutoff attendance for this ended up around 93%)

Back on topic, I can't figure out how either side thinks dragging this out is a good idea. Are they not aware that, while they may be considered one of the "big four" leagues, it's a sizable gap between them and the NBA, and they're already struggling for continued relevance?

[elsmere241]

Donald Fehr, who led the baseball players' union a while back, now leads the NHL players' union.  I don't see that as a good sign.

[Big John]

I may add Winnipeg for one of the other cities as they regained the Jets last year and sold out.

[Alps]

I may add Winnipeg for one of the other cities as they regained the Jets last year and sold out.

Oh, I put Regina but I meant Winnipeg. It's so easy to forget, all tucked away down there.

[ftballfan]

Donald Fehr, who led the baseball players' union a while back, now leads the NHL players' union.  I don't see that as a good sign.

The 1994-95 MLB strike, led by Don Fehr, was the only labor dispute (so far) to wipe out parts of two seasons. If the lockout wipes out this season, I think the MLS may have a better case for consideration in the "Big Four".

NHL realignment (provided no teams fold)
Northeast (8): Boston, Halifax (relocated Islanders), Hamilton (relocated Coyotes), Montreal, New Jersey, New York (Rangers), Ottawa, Toronto
Southeast (8): Buffalo, Carolina, Detroit, Nashville, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Washington
Northwest (7): Calgary, Edmonton, Minnesota, Saskatoon (relocated Panthers), Seattle (relocated Stars), Vancouver, Winnipeg
Southwest (7): Chicago, Colorado, Kansas City (relocated Blue Jackets), Los Angeles, Portland (OR) (relocated Ducks), San Jose, St. Louis

Carolina, Nashville, and Tampa Bay seem to do well and have success on the ice as well (TB won the Cup in 2004 while Carolina won the Cup in 2006)

[mgk920]

Donald Fehr, who led the baseball players' union a while back, now leads the NHL players' union.  I don't see that as a good sign.

The 1994-95 MLB strike, led by Don Fehr, was the only labor dispute (so far) to wipe out parts of two seasons. If the lockout wipes out this season, I think the MLS may have a better case for consideration in the "Big Four".

NHL realignment (provided no teams fold)
Northeast (8): Boston, Halifax (relocated Islanders), Hamilton (relocated Coyotes), Montreal, New Jersey, New York (Rangers), Ottawa, Toronto
Southeast (8): Buffalo, Carolina, Detroit, Nashville, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Washington
Northwest (7): Calgary, Edmonton, Minnesota, Saskatoon (relocated Panthers), Seattle (relocated Stars), Vancouver, Winnipeg
Southwest (7): Chicago, Colorado, Kansas City (relocated Blue Jackets), Los Angeles, Portland (OR) (relocated Ducks), San Jose, St. Louis

Carolina, Nashville, and Tampa Bay seem to do well and have success on the ice as well (TB won the Cup in 2004 while Carolina won the Cup in 2006)

I agree that MLS is steadily and noticeably expanding their fan base - such that IMHO, even the Baseball™ Gods should be keeping their eyes on them.

I'm kind of wondering that should the NHL go *POOF!*, if it wouldn't be a bad idea to reorganize Hockey™ on the lines of those European fútbol federations with the minor league affiliations being cancelled and every surviving ex-NHL team then going into a new federation with promotion-relegation between the competition levels.  The top level would play for the Stanley Cup (which long predates the NHL, BTW) and the lower level teams would play for promotion into the top level.  The Milwaukee Admirals (now a farm team of the Nashville Predators), for example, would then be playing for a chance to compete for the Stanley Cup rather than for some obscure minor league trophy that nobody has heard of.

An added bonus is that there would be no need for a players' union and it would end the endless parade of weak teams moving from city to city.  Weak teams would just be relegated to more appropriate levels and good teams from other cities would be promoted to replace them, based solely on their 'on the ice' performance.

Any thoughts?



Mike

[Brandon]

I agree that MLS is steadily and noticeably expanding their fan base - such that IMHO, even the Baseball™ Gods should be keeping their eyes on them.

MLS - puke.    Is there anything more boring than watching soccer? 

It's high time that Bettman was given his walking papers to go back to the NBA. 
I WANT MY HOCKEY DAMMIT!

[Duke87]

I agree that MLS is steadily and noticeably expanding their fan base - such that IMHO, even the Baseball™ Gods should be keeping their eyes on them.

MLS - puke.    Is there anything more boring than watching soccer? 

This is the typical traditional American position on soccer, yes. But that is already changing as more and more immigrants from Latin America (where soccer is a huge thing) come in. In the future I imagine there will only be more fans of "Futbol" in the US.

[vtk]

If CBJ folds or moves to another city, that'll cause a lot of pain and anger locally.  I think the taxpayers recently bought Nationwide Arena, which has been something of an anchor for redevelopment in that part of downtown.



Soccer can be interesting if you know all the ins and outs of what's going on, I suppose.  The same can be said for baseball, NASCAR, and day-to-day politics.

[DandyDan]

I agree that MLS is steadily and noticeably expanding their fan base - such that IMHO, even the Baseball™ Gods should be keeping their eyes on them.

MLS - puke.    Is there anything more boring than watching soccer? 

This is the typical traditional American position on soccer, yes. But that is already changing as more and more immigrants from Latin America (where soccer is a huge thing) come in. In the future I imagine there will only be more fans of "Futbol" in the US.

Don't forget about the fact soccer is the most popular youth sport in America today.  It has to follow that at some point, the USA will produce a player as good as Lionel Messi.  And everyone will want to be like him.

As for hockey, I don't know if the current lockout is the beginning of the end for the NHL.  It might be for places with a lack of hockey tradition (aka the southern teams), but you can rest assured that once the NHL opens for business again in its stronger markets that they will have sellouts the first games.

[Stephane Dumas]

I'm kind of wondering that should the NHL go *POOF!*, if it wouldn't be a bad idea to reorganize Hockey™ on the lines of those European fútbol federations with the minor league affiliations being cancelled and every surviving ex-NHL team then going into a new federation with promotion-relegation between the competition levels.  The top level would play for the Stanley Cup (which long predates the NHL, BTW) and the lower level teams would play for promotion into the top level.  The Milwaukee Admirals (now a farm team of the Nashville Predators), for example, would then be playing for a chance to compete for the Stanley Cup rather than for some obscure minor league trophy that nobody has heard of.

An added bonus is that there would be no need for a players' union and it would end the endless parade of weak teams moving from city to city.  Weak teams would just be relegated to more appropriate levels and good teams from other cities would be promoted to replace them, based solely on their 'on the ice' performance.

Any thoughts?



Mike

It was more or less worked the way you described before the NHL decided to take the Stanley Cup for good. The 1st incarnation of the Cleveland Barons in the AHL wanted to challenge the Stanley Cup champions in 1953 but the NHL refused. http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2008/05/1953-unexpected-challenge-from.html

I suggested in another thread, then some current NHL teams should quit the NHL to create their own league, they could get the name rights on the WHA.

And Gary Bettman, he should had used replacement players just like the NFL did and I still have a grudge against Donald Fehr, thanks to him if the Montreal Expos are killed.

And some fans might plan to sue as well  http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/article/1303081--nhl-lockout-yankees-fan-to-rule-on-league-lawsuit
and here a good editorial from the Toronto Globe & Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/making-the-case-for-a-class-action-fans-lawsuit-against-the-nhl/article6185890/

The five stages of hockey death are merely the five stages of grief arranged in slightly different order.

Grief's five: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.

NHL hockey's five: bargaining, denial, depression, acceptance, anger.

The anger, following Monday's announcement that games are cancelled through the end of 2012, is now full blown. Increasingly, fans are saying: "I hope they don't go back this year."

There is something wonderfully Canadian in such a response. This is a country that prefers to throw governments out over putting governments in. There has always been a peculiar and particular joy — perhaps a colonial vestige — in putting the boots to large institutions that disappoint. We may not have capital punishment, but that doesn't mean we don't believe in punishing.

One of the country's key legal minds was musing privately last weekend over the possibility of season-ticket holders launching a class-action suit against the NHL and its 30 teams.

His notion lies in the possibility that season-ticket holders were deliberately misled when they either purchased or renewed their seats.

One of his law partners — like him, a season-ticket holder in one of Canada's seven NHL cities — was so angry with the incomprehensible absurdity that the NHL lockout has become that he wrote to his once beloved local team demanding his money back. It proved rather impossible.

Teams have a variety of systems to deal with cancelled games. Subscribers can leave their money with the team and, in some instances, even collect interest, usually in the range of 2 to 5 per cent, 5 per cent actually looking rather attractive to investors in the current economic climate.

In the case of the lawyer who demanded a full refund, he was informed he can be refunded only on a game-by-game basis, as previously scheduled games are lost to the labour dispute.

The strategy is obvious, the legal mind says. You offer season-ticket holders a small incentive to stay; you make it a bother to leave. This works to the advantage of teams as there is, daily, an increasing possibility that if a season-ticket holder leaves for the whole season, he is potentially gone for the next season as well, perhaps gone forever.

Fan loyalty is proving not quite as deep as the ocean, as proved to be the case in 2004-05. There is this time a growing sense that, given the chance, fans might turn on the league and its players if 2012-13 is lost entirely.

And since we are discussing strategy, he adds, you have to presume that the league and its teams had a strategy in place that presumed — perhaps even planned — that there would be a lockout on Sept. 15.

That, he says, raises the possibility that teams sold season tickets fully aware there would be, at best, a shortened season, and, at worst, no season at all. He would call this "false pretenses."  Even if those tickets have caveats in small print regarding the possibility of lost games, he still believes a legal argument could be made.

Season-ticket holders are a powerful force in hockey. Well more than half the available seats are dedicated to their loyalty.

The legal mind thinks there would be judges — also hockey fans — out there who would entertain such a legal question, even if it went nowhere.

Just imagine the squirming, he says, if a court were discussing a forensic examination of league and team e-mails to determine whether the lockout was a certainty even as season tickets were being sold to games that were never going to be played.

Examiners would, he predicts, find a "gold mine."

At the least, fans should have been "forewarned."  And if they went ahead and purchased their tickets, there should have been an "Eaton's"  guarantee — "Goods satisfactory or money refunded"  — that would be immediately honoured if a fan so requested.

The legal mind doesn't actually believe there would be any court resolution to such a case. Courts, after all, move even more slowly than Donald Fehr or Gary Bettman.

The idea would be to make matters uncomfortable for the league and teams, to annoy them as much as they have annoyed their best fans, and to give fans some "leverage"  when, in fact, they currently have none.

After all, he points out, the NHL and the players are fighting over the fans' money.

[bugo]

Soccer and golf are good to watch if you're having problems falling asleep.  Other than that, they're completely worthless.

[Henry]

As a teed-off Blackhawks fan, I could care less about what happens now. But at least I can now say that I got to see them win the Stanley Cup two seasons ago.

As for ideas of an alternate NHL, I can see the following:

EAST: Boston, Buffalo, Carolina, Florida, Montreal, Nashville, New Jersey, NY Islanders, NY Rangers, Ottawa, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Toronto, Washington

WEST: Anaheim, Calgary, Chicago, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, Edmonton, Kansas City (formerly Columbus), Los Angeles, Minnesota, San Jose, St. Louis, Seattle (formerly Phoenix), Vancouver, Winnipeg

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

And Gary Bettman, he should had used replacement players just like the NFL did and I still have a grudge against Donald Fehr, thanks to him if the Montreal Expos are killed.

NHL can't use replacement players, because management is keeping the players (union) out (thus it being a lockout and not a strike).

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

If CBJ folds or moves to another city, that'll cause a lot of pain and anger locally.  I think the taxpayers recently bought Nationwide Arena, which has been something of an anchor for redevelopment in that part of downtown.



Soccer can be interesting if you know all the ins and outs of what's going on, I suppose.  The same can be said for baseball, NASCAR, and day-to-day politics.

The sad part is, that Columbus was supporting the Blue Jackets up through the last work stopage. The attendence cliff that the Blue Jackets have gone over, in the last 3 years, was because the team sucks and management has no clue as to how to stop it.
As for the Arena, Columbus & Franklin County has voted down tax issues numerous times concerning building arenas since the mid 80s (makes you wonder how Vets Memorial and Convention Center were funded). With some gentle persuasion from the city and state, Nationwide Insurance (which bought up the land in the NW quadrant of DT Columbus when it was dirt cheap [as slum clearance]) with some assistance from the Dispatch group (Who owns the local paper, a couple of radio stations, and TV station), went and built the arena on their own dime. 
The arena was "sold" to the city not because Nationwide was losing money, but because the hockey team was losing money because they had to pay rent, unlike most of the other "major league" sport franchises in North America, or so we were told (over the last couple of years).

[Brandon]

And Gary Bettman, he should had used replacement players just like the NFL did and I still have a grudge against Donald Fehr, thanks to him if the Montreal Expos are killed.

NHL can't use replacement players, because management is keeping the players (union) out (thus it being a lockout and not a strike).

Well, that can't last for much longer.  The players voted to dissolve the union.  Hence, there's now no union to bargain with.

[hbelkins]

Soccer and golf are good to watch if you're having problems falling asleep.  Other than that, they're completely worthless.

And, in my book, add hockey to that list.

[english si]

golf [is] good to watch if you're having problems falling asleep.  Other than that, they're completely worthless.

"Golf is a game whose aim is to hit a very small ball into a even smaller hole, with weapons singularly ill-designed for the purpose." Not only worthless for other purposes, but actually costly...

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

And Gary Bettman, he should had used replacement players just like the NFL did and I still have a grudge against Donald Fehr, thanks to him if the Montreal Expos are killed.

NHL can't use replacement players, because management is keeping the players (union) out (thus it being a lockout and not a strike).

Well, that can't last for much longer.  The players voted to dissolve the union.  Hence, there's now no union to bargain with.

NHL sued in federal court (in NYC) to prevent the players union from desolving, claiming that the players are not bargining in good faith.
Even if the players union is allow to desolve (which would allow individual players to sue the owners for Anti-trust violations), the owners can't bring in "new players," they would have to honor the existing contracts, that both sides (players and management) agreed to.

[broadhurst04]

The league took a big hit after the 04-05 lockout as far as being able to get their games consistently on national TV. It can't be good for the overall health of the league when its season championship series - the Stanley Cup Final - is split in the US between an unpopular over-the-air network (NBC) and an obscure sports channel many people can't see (NBC Sports Network, formerly OLN/VS.). There's also the movement or establishment of teams in cities where it doesn't snow, none of the natives grew up with the game, they don't understand the game and they don't care. What might end up happening is, every existing team south of a line from Washington DC to Portland OR will either move north of that line or fold altogether. I just don't think the league can generate enough revenue to both give the owners the profits they want and give the players the salaries they want.

[bugo]

Soccer and golf are good to watch if you're having problems falling asleep.  Other than that, they're completely worthless.

And, in my book, add hockey to that list.

I don't watch hockey, but I've seen it a couple of times and it's not too bad.  I wouldn't go out of my way to watch it, however.  Give me a good college football or a college bball game any day.

[cpzilliacus]

I like the Swedish system of hockey leagues (I also like the bigger (wider) rink used there, which places greater emphasis on speed and puck handling, and less emphasis on  crashes and "enforcers" and the like). 

There is the "major" league, the Swedish Elite League (Elitserien), which is 12 teams (a lot for a sparsely-populated nation), and there is the "second" league, the All Sweden Hockey League (HockeyAllsvenskan), 14 teams.

And at the end of the season, the two worst Elite League clubs must play in a play-out/play-in tournament, in which the two best teams of the tournament go to the Elite League and the others are relegated to the All Sweden League.

[1995hoo]

You'll never see the European-sized (international) rink used in the NHL, simply because it would be too expensive to rebuild the arenas to accommodate it. Recall how the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver were played on NHL-sized ice for the first time–all previous Olympics were played on international-sized ice, but the IOC and the IIHF agreed to use the NHL rink to save money.

The lockout is saving ME a fair amount of money since my wife and I share our Capitals season tickets with a couple of other people. I haven't sat down and crunched the numbers yet, but I believe we are soon approaching the point where they'll start refunding season-ticket installments already paid (we make 12 payments with no interest for the regular season; playoffs are billed after each round concludes). We went to an AHL game in DC a few weeks ago when the Hershey Bears played the Norfolk Admirals at Verizon Center. I've been a huge hockey fan since 1984, but I found myself thinking that I didn't miss being at the games all that much. That's the sort of thing that will really kill the NHL–if long-time fans move on and find they don't miss it.

The hardest thing for me is having no sports to watch on TV this winter! Yeah, the Redskins are experiencing a revival, but that's one day a week. Nothing to watch on weeknights. Maybe I might have to get back into college basketball. (As an alumnus of two ACC schools–Virginia and Duke–I used to watch a lot of college basketball, but I lost interest when I was no longer able to attend games.) I've never watched the NBA, but then I grew up in an area (Washington DC metro area) that does not have a pro basketball team.