Alternatives to the flashing yellow arrow

[Pink Jazz]

As everyone here should know, the flashing yellow arrow was added as an option in the 2009 MUTCD to indicate permissive left turns.

However, wouldn't some people find the flashing distracting?  This is why the MUTCD banned the use of white strobes inside red lights.  As alternatives, why not a fourth color arrow such as blue, purple, white, or pink?  Or alternatively, a "reversed" yellow arrow, which would basically be a yellow ball light with a black arrow inside it.

What does anyone here think?

[TEG24601]

Blue would be confusing, since Blue is used instead of green in other countries.


I like the flashing red ball that Michigan uses, because everyone knows what a flashing red means.

[DaBigE]

However, wouldn't some people find the flashing distracting?  This is why the MUTCD banned the use of white strobes inside red lights.  As alternatives, why not a fourth color arrow such as blue, purple, white, or pink?  Or alternatively, a "reversed" yellow arrow, which would basically be a yellow ball light with a black arrow inside it.

What does anyone here think?

If the flashing was that big of a problem, I think it would have cropped up with pedestrian signals a long time ago. As long as the flashing is in sync, it's ok for me. HOWEVER, some municipalities (looking at you, Madison ), have three different flash rates: one for the FYA, one for the upright hand, and a third for the ped countdown. THAT gets very distracting, especially at night.

Adding just about any one of your suggested colors would not help colorblind drivers. The current red, amber, green already has a bluish tint to it. Reversing the black and yellow would be more confusing/ignored detail than the concept of a FYA.

I like the flashing red ball that Michigan uses, because everyone knows what a flashing red means.

Except that would require everyone to come to a complete stop before making the turn...adding unnecessary delay in many cases. A flashing yellow has always meant slow down, proceed with caution; it does not give you the right-of-way. Like YIELD signs, I don't understand why some drivers get so confused with that concept.

Frankly, I didn't see a problem with the 5-signal tower (or doghouse as used in other states). If they're going to do something, the current FYA is a good enough solution for me.

[Pink Jazz]

Adding just about any one of your suggested colors would not help colorblind drivers. The current red, amber, green already has a bluish tint to it. Reversing the black and yellow would be more confusing/ignored detail than the concept of a FYA.

I know that was the case with incandescent signals (orange tint to red, blue tint to green), however, is that still the case with LED signals?  Isn't the light output of LEDs monochromatic?  Everyone should know that red is on top (or on the left in horizontal signals) and green is on the bottom (or on the right in horizontal signals).  The additional color would go between the yellow and green signals.

[GaryV]

I like the flashing red ball that Michigan uses, because everyone knows what a flashing red means.

Which are gradually being replaced by FYA.

[GaryV]

Except that would require everyone to come to a complete stop before making the turn...adding unnecessary delay in many cases. A flashing yellow has always meant slow down, proceed with caution; it does not give you the right-of-way. Like YIELD signs, I don't understand why some drivers get so confused with that concept.

In theory, yes, but in practice people treat it as a yield.  Except maybe for kids taking their license exam, no one comes to a complete stop for a blinking red left turn light.

The problem is, and I've said it before, we didn't have any light signal that meant Yield.  So they improvised, and came up with the two alternatives - FYA and MI's flashing red.  Looks like FYA is in the majority.  Since there's enough of them around now, I don't think we need to come up with another shape or color to replace FYA.

[DaBigE]

Adding just about any one of your suggested colors would not help colorblind drivers. The current red, amber, green already has a bluish tint to it. Reversing the black and yellow would be more confusing/ignored detail than the concept of a FYA.

I know that was the case with incandescent signals (orange tint to red, blue tint to green), however, is that still the case with LED signals?  Isn't the light output of LEDs monochromatic?

The light source may have changed, but the color shade has remained the same/become more uniform with LEDs. I know there are ITE specifications floating around; any manufacturer's literature references how their LED product meets ITE color, luminosity, etc., etc. values.

Everyone should know that red is on top (or on the left in horizontal signals) and green is on the bottom (or on the right in horizontal signals).  The additional color would go between the yellow and green signals.

If position is the key, what difference does it make what color the FA is? If you select blue or purple for the FYA replacement, it could easily get confused for green in a 3-indication left turn setup. Granted, the fact that there's only 3 indications should be clue enough, however most drivers aren't putting that much thought into what they're doing. The split-second decision most of today's drivers make could mean a costly misinterpretation.

[roadfro]

However, wouldn't some people find the flashing distracting?  This is why the MUTCD banned the use of white strobes inside red lights.  As alternatives, why not a fourth color arrow such as blue, purple, white, or pink?  Or alternatively, a "reversed" yellow arrow, which would basically be a yellow ball light with a black arrow inside it.

A flash versus a strobe is completely different. The flash pattern is similar to a beacon, flashing about once per second. The strobe lights flashed several times per second, which is far more distracting (and strobe patterns at certain rates have the ability to induce seizures).

I would find another color to be much less intuitive, and it would have a wealth of issues mentioned previously. The reversed arrow concept would likely suffer from less visibility of the arrow from a distance.

[Kacie Jane]

A flashing yellow has always meant slow down, proceed with caution; it does not give you the right-of-way.

If you're at a four-way intersection, and you have a flashing yellow (ball), doesn't that mean cross traffic has a flashing red, and you have the right-of-way?

[DaBigE]

A flashing yellow has always meant slow down, proceed with caution; it does not give you the right-of-way.

If you're at a four-way intersection, and you have a flashing yellow (ball), doesn't that mean cross traffic has a flashing red, and you have the right-of-way?

Except if you're making a left turn facing the flashing yellow. Between the main street and the cross street, yes, you have the right-of-way, but not against oncoming traffic, nor a pedestrian crossing the road.

[agentsteel53]

If you're at a four-way intersection, and you have a flashing yellow (ball), doesn't that mean cross traffic has a flashing red, and you have the right-of-way?

except for that one town in Vermont that apparently had three yellows and a red at one point.  Steve Alpert has photos but I can't find them because I don't remember which highway number.

[Kacie Jane]

A flashing yellow has always meant slow down, proceed with caution; it does not give you the right-of-way.

If you're at a four-way intersection, and you have a flashing yellow (ball), doesn't that mean cross traffic has a flashing red, and you have the right-of-way?

Except if you're making a left turn facing the flashing yellow. Between the main street and the cross street, yes, you have the right-of-way, but not against oncoming traffic, nor a pedestrian crossing the road.

Alright, so hear me out here....

If you're facing a solid green ball, you have the right of way going straight.
If you're facing a solid green arrow, you have the right of way turning left.
If you're facing a flashing yellow ball, you have the right of way going straight.
If you're facing a flashing yellow arrow, you don't have the right of way???

(Just to be clear, I know exactly what a FYA means.  I'm just playing devil's advocate, saying there's not no reason for confusion.  It's exactly the same as turning right on red on a red arrow.  If you have knowledge of local laws that might border on esoteric, you're fine.  But it could be a lot simpler.)

[wisvishr0]

Alright, so hear me out here....

If you're facing a solid green ball, you have the right of way going straight.
If you're facing a solid green arrow, you have the right of way turning left.
If you're facing a flashing yellow ball, you have the right of way going straight.
If you're facing a flashing yellow arrow, you don't have the right of way???

(Just to be clear, I know exactly what a FYA means.  I'm just playing devil's advocate, saying there's not no reason for confusion.  It's exactly the same as turning right on red on a red arrow.  If you have knowledge of local laws that might border on esoteric, you're fine.  But it could be a lot simpler.)

I agree with you. As someone from Maryland (which isn't using FYAs), it was really confusing to see them in Texas for the first time. It was really ambiguous, and I thought that it just meant: you have the right of way over other cars, but not over pedestrians. It was nice, though, because at that specific intersection, there was a "yield on flashing yellow arrow" sign, which cleared up the ambiguities.

At the end of the day, all we needed was a permissive left without through traffic having green and without having to stop. A flashing yellow arrow fits the bill, as long as it's clear to everyone: it's fine, as long as every intersection with it has clear signs for those who aren't used to it at home, or for those who use logic and reason to sort out what signs and signals mean.

[agentsteel53]

remind me again why we need a flashing yellow arrow?

doesn't green ball, without explicit green arrow, mean "you may turn left, but yield to oncoming before doing so"?  what else does the FYA mean? 

[Kacie Jane]

The last paragraph of wisvishr's post answers that.  It's not about what else the FYA means, but what else the green ball means.

[DaBigE]

remind me again why we need a flashing yellow arrow?

doesn't green ball, without explicit green arrow, mean "you may turn left, but yield to oncoming before doing so"?  what else does the FYA mean?

I totally agree. When the FYA was first introduced, I thought it was a solution looking for a problem. Until the FYA was introduced, I had never heard of any green ball ambiguity. Unless you had a green arrow, if you had to cross anyone else's path to complete your maneuver, you had to ensure the path was clear before proceeding.

FYAs do allow for a little more programming flexibility. For instance, you can allow a permissive left turn while the opposing traffic has a protected turn movement. That said, certain modelling softwares still cannot properly model a FYA.

[agentsteel53]

The last paragraph of wisvishr's post answers that.  It's not about what else the FYA means, but what else the green ball means.

I had not read this part:

At the end of the day, all we needed was a permissive left without through traffic having green and without having to stop.

fair enough.  that's a resolution that allows traffic to proceed faster than shutting down the left turn lane just because the straight is shut down.

but what else does the green ball mean? 

(also, when does one have right of way over a pedestrian?  ever?  I thought the law was that one must make every effort to avoid them - even if they are jaywalking, falling out of the sky, looking to pick a fight with you after they got a flat tire, etc.)

[DaBigE]

...as long as every intersection with it has clear signs for those who aren't used to it at home, or for those who use logic and reason to sort out what signs and signals mean.

That sign has become optional in many places, Wisconsin now being one of them.

[froggie]

except for that one town in Vermont that apparently had three yellows and a red at one point.  Steve Alpert has photos but I can't find them because I don't remember which highway number.

Don't recall hearing about this one before.  Which town?

remind me again why we need a flashing yellow arrow?

doesn't green ball, without explicit green arrow, mean "you may turn left, but yield to oncoming before doing so"?  what else does the FYA mean?

As was mentioned in the other FYA thread, yes green ball means this.  But green ball was increasingly confusing drivers who also believed that it meant they also had right-of-way while turning.  Hence why FYA was developed, as it makes the distinction for left-turning-traffic to use caution more clear.

(also, when does one have right of way over a pedestrian?  ever? 

When you have the green turn arrow.   Sure, plenty of them start walking against such an arrow, but by the book the driver has right-of-way in green arrow situations.

[agentsteel53]

Don't recall hearing about this one before.  Which town?

I finally remembered.  it is in Barre: Elm at Summer.



photo from here:
http://www.alpsroads.net/roads/vt/vt_14/

But green ball was increasingly confusing drivers who also believed that it meant they also had right-of-way while turning.  Hence why FYA was developed, as it makes the distinction for left-turning-traffic to use caution more clear.

or we could just stop giving stupid people driver's licenses, but where would the fun be in that?

by the book the driver has right-of-way in green arrow situations.

I would call that a "jaywalking" situation and while technically I may have right-of-way to hit him, I would not be able to justify that to the courts, the pedestrian's family, or my conscience.

[Mr_Northside]

As was mentioned in the other FYA thread, yes green ball means this.  But green ball was increasingly confusing drivers who also believed that it meant they also had right-of-way while turning.  Hence why FYA was developed, as it makes the distinction for left-turning-traffic to use caution more clear.

And these are the people that shouldn't be issued driver's licenses.  It's a simple core principle of driving.  IF THERE IS ONCOMING TRAFFIC, YIELD TO IT, not just at signalized intersections, but in general (except STOP signs, where you get a "turn") - even when there is no intersections (driveways, etc)....
The exception to that; when a DOT uses an ARROW.  It exists to tell you that you don't have to adhere to that principle, that you don't have to yield to oncoming traffic. 
The people that think the green ball means they have the right-of-way need to go back to driver's ed.
Which is why I dislike the FYA.  It uses something (the arrow) whose whole purpose is to say "You don't have to yield to oncoming traffic" to convey a situation where you have to yield to oncoming traffic.  An oxymoron.

[Big John]

The FYA also allows for Dallas phasing as the green balls no longer permitted for the left turn lane unless all through lanes in that direction are also displaying green.  It also brings that situation to other areas that never allowed a non-protected left turn where the adjacent through traffic had a red.

[wisvishr0]

Meh, that's not exactly why I hate them. An arrow doesn't necessarily denote that you have the right of way, just that turning traffic has different rules than through traffic. A flashing red arrow is pretty common (at least in Maryland), and it doesn't mean that turning traffic has the right of way.

Still, I prefer a flashing red arrow to a flashing yellow arrow, because it'll make sure people don't wait in the middle of the intersection before proceeding. It'll limit the number of people who nudge forward into the intersection before turning -- with a red arrow, your first instinct is to stay behind the stop line until you're clear, rather  than waiting in the middle.

[agentsteel53]

The FYA also allows for Dallas phasing as the green balls no longer permitted for the left turn lane unless all through lanes in that direction are also displaying green.  It also brings that situation to other areas that never allowed a non-protected left turn where the adjacent through traffic had a red.

what is the difference between these two?  I thought the definition of Dallas phasing was "red for the mainline, permissive green for left-turning traffic"?

[agentsteel53]

people who nudge forward into the intersection before turning

what's wrong with this?