E/W Highways That Maybe Should Be N/S (and vice versa)

[bzakharin]

I still say that both NJ 42 should be signed as E-W instead of N-S.  Yes, i know I have been told on this forum before that the endpoints are more away from each other more N-S than E-W, but considering it connects to US 322 and E-W signed US route at its east end and connects to E-W I-76 at its west end, it would be more less confusing if it were done this way.  Plus the ACE runs mainly E-W too so it would be more consistent to say take I-76 E to NJ 42 E to the ACE E than follow I-76 E into NJ 42 S until the freeway becomes the ACE EB.

But if you change the ACE to North-South instead, you get an excuse to keep the wrong-way mileage and exit numbers. Ditto for I-76 in NJ (really, I-76 is messed up almost from the moment it leaves the PA Turnpike with major sections of the "eastbound" roadway going SW).

[PHLBOS]

I-76 is messed up almost from the moment it leaves the PA Turnpike with major sections of the "eastbound" roadway going SW

SW?????  Last time I checked, Valley Forge to the Walt Whitman Bridge is in a SE direction.  Yes I-76 East makes some westerly bulges (and vice-versa for I-76 West), but such doesn't change the overall direction of the Schuylkill Expressway (which was originally a N-S highway as previously mentioned).

[bzakharin]

I did not say all, I said major sections. I didn't notice that the Schuylkill was already mentioned in this thread. When was the I-76 designation assigned to it? Was that when it was changed to East-West?

[PHLBOS]

I didn't notice that the Schuylkill was already mentioned in this thread. When was the I-76 designation assigned to it? Was that when it was changed to East-West?

The Schuylkill Expressway, which previously had been designated PA 43, had the following Interstate designations over the years:

June 1958-October 1958: I-280 from Valley Forge to the Walt Whitman Bridge. Pennsylvania officials proposed this designation.

October 1958-November 1958: I-380 from Valley Forge to Center City (Vine Street Expressway); I-395 from Center City to the Walt Whitman Bridge. New Jersey officials suggested these separate designations to correspond with that state's proposed Interstate segments.

November 1958-early 1964: I-80S from Valley Forge to Center City (Vine Street Expressway); I-680 from Center City to the Walt Whitman Bridge. These were the final designations given by the American Association of State Highway Officials (AASHO).

1964-1973: I-76 from Valley Forge to Center City (Vine Street Expressway); I-676 from Center City to the Walt Whitman Bridge; approved by AASHO. The I-76 designation was desired because none of the existing spur routes (I-180, I-280, I-480 and I-680) touched their parent route. Designations on the spur routes also were changed.

1973-present: I-76 along entire length from Valley Forge to the Walt Whitman Bridge. (Interestingly, the current routing of the I-76 designation from the Ohio border to the Walt Whitman Bridge had been suggested by some Pennsylvania officials since 1963.)

Source

I'm guessing that it became an E/W route when it first received an Interstate designation circa June 1958.

[Kacie Jane]

The way I'm reading it, the first two don't necessarily represent designations that were actually posted. Pennsylvania suggested one set of numbers in June, New Jersey suggested a different set in October, and the first ones actually posted would be the completely different set that AASHO approved in November.

But I would guess the same thing regardless. Though if an x95 number were ever posted, perhaps that would have been N/S?

[PHLBOS]

The way I'm reading it, the first two don't necessarily represent designations that were actually posted. Pennsylvania suggested one set of numbers in June, New Jersey suggested a different set in October, and the first ones actually posted would be the completely different set that AASHO approved in November.

But I would guess the same thing regardless. Though if an x95 number were ever posted, perhaps that would have been N/S?

Not necessarily; Center City (more precisely 30th St. Station) to the Walt Whitman Bridge is still more of an E/W direction rather than a N/S direction.  Elsewhere there are plenty of I-x95s that are E/W routes.

One needs to remember that the odd numbers being N/S and even numbers being E/W only applies to one or 2-digit Interstates (& US routes) not the 3-digit ones.

[roadman65]

I still say that both NJ 42 should be signed as E-W instead of N-S.  Yes, i know I have been told on this forum before that the endpoints are more away from each other more N-S than E-W, but considering it connects to US 322 and E-W signed US route at its east end and connects to E-W I-76 at its west end, it would be more less confusing if it were done this way.  Plus the ACE runs mainly E-W too so it would be more consistent to say take I-76 E to NJ 42 E to the ACE E than follow I-76 E into NJ 42 S until the freeway becomes the ACE EB.

But if you change the ACE to North-South instead, you get an excuse to keep the wrong-way mileage and exit numbers. Ditto for I-76 in NJ (really, I-76 is messed up almost from the moment it leaves the PA Turnpike with major sections of the "eastbound" roadway going SW).

One of the things about NJ and PA is that many roads are just built without true direction in mind.  Unlike many places where the roads are mostly built with actual alignments following the compass with the exception of subdivision streets and some urban arterials,  New Jersey builds them just mainly to go from a point a to a point b.

It might have to do with the fact New Jersey is one of the original 13 states that had a large population base already started that the roads were designed to weave around the built up areas.  Also the fact that NJ lengthwise really goes from SW to NE.  If you built a true N-S road it would actually go from the Atlantic Ocean to the Delaware River on a very shallow angle.  An E-W roadway would go on an angle instead of straight across as it would appear.

Back to the original topic, I would say sign PA 291 as N-S as well.  Because it parallels I-95 and US 13 that both are signed as N-S it would make things less confusing.  For example years ago my dad was following PA 291 and got scared that he was heading away from the Delaware River when he saw a WEST PA 291 assembly.  He was trying to find I-95 South, as the freeway was not totally complete through the Philly area back in the 1970's when this happened.  He was going to Wilmington, DE from Philadelphia and was following PA 291.  So you could imagine why he got totally confused as he has been around for many years where normally he would be taking US 13 between the two cities, but we drifted off to see the visual sights of Philly and was on Broad Street, which at the time was PA 291 south of City Hall. 

Seeing a PA 291 shield labeled west would throw most travelers off considering we have the tendency to think that the Delaware River (the eastern border of PA which PA 291 follows) is true North to South not so much of ignorance, but because of naturally thinking that an eastern border of anything would be N-S.

[bzakharin]

One of the things about NJ and PA is that many roads are just built without true direction in mind.  Unlike many places where the roads are mostly built with actual alignments following the compass with the exception of subdivision streets and some urban arterials,  New Jersey builds them just mainly to go from a point a to a point b.

Aren't all roads built to go from point A to point B? Does anyone really ever build a road to go due north (or whatever) just so that one exists even though there is nothing due north worth going to? And if you're planning new subdivisions, I'd guess the new roads would roughly parallel existing roads in the area rather than follow compass directions.

What does that mean for directions that should be chosen? I guess there are various strategies. The ACE seems to de-emphasize directions in favor of "Camden/Philadelphia" and "Atlantic City", at least at entrances. But it's East-West, and despite what I said above, my gut tells me I'm going East-West when I'm on it (also 42, even the non-freeway section. It parallels the ACE after all), so I do feel like most highways in NJ are signed with the correct directions.

As a side note, if you drew a line from NJ's southernmost point (in Cape May county) to its northernmost (in Sussex County), you'd get an almost due north-south line, though it would cross into PA and back. It's more fair to say that the major population centers in NJ are clustered around the SW-NE direction, and that the major cities you connect by going through NJ follow that direction as well.

[US71]

AR 60 can be E-W OR N-S, depending where you are.

One section runs N-S AND E-W, but is posted E-W

[woodpusher]

I-980 is north-south, yet it's signed east-west.

If the first number in a 3di is odd then it should be a spur; if even it should be a loop.
Now if it's a spur, it figures to be opposite to its parent route (I-80, being even, is east-west.  So its spurs figure to be north-south.) 
I've seen beltways signed E-W from bearings 315-45 and 135-225, then N-S from bearings 45-135 and 225-315.
Maybe they should be clockwise and counter-clockwise though.

[iowahighways]

IA 137, which runs between Albia and Eddyville, is a diagonal that is mostly east-west but is signed north-south. That is because it followed what is now US 63 between Eddyville and Oskaloosa before 1997.

[TheStranger]

Now if it's a spur, it figures to be opposite to its parent route (I-80, being even, is east-west.  So its spurs figure to be north-south.) 

That's not always the case at all: for two California examples that come to mind, I-505 is north/south like I-5 is, and I-580 is east/west like parent route I-80.

(980 does not intersect 80 at all, for that matter, though its eastern terminus at 580 is about a mile or two from the MacArthur Maze)

[PHLBOS]

Back to the original topic, I would say sign PA 291 as N-S as well.  Because it parallels I-95 and US 13 that both are signed as N-S it would make things less confusing.  For example years ago my dad was following PA 291 and got scared that he was heading away from the Delaware River when he saw a WEST PA 291 assembly.  He was trying to find I-95 South, as the freeway was not totally complete through the Philly area back in the 1970's when this happened.  He was going to Wilmington, DE from Philadelphia and was following PA 291.  So you could imagine why he got totally confused as he has been around for many years where normally he would be taking US 13 between the two cities, but we drifted off to see the visual sights of Philly and was on Broad Street, which at the time was PA 291 south of City Hall. 

Seeing a PA 291 shield labeled west would throw most travelers off considering we have the tendency to think that the Delaware River (the eastern border of PA which PA 291 follows) is true North to South not so much of ignorance, but because of naturally thinking that an eastern border of anything would be N-S.

If memory serves, back when PA 291 ended at City Hall; the Broad Street portion of it was signed as a N/S route while the rest of the route was signed as E/W.  Until the very early 90s, the BGS' for the Broad St. exit off I-95 still listed Broad St. as NORTH 291.

Not sure when it happened, but when PennDOT redesignated Broad St. south of City Hall as an extension of PA 611 and moved PA 291 over to 26th St. (where it currently terminates at I-76); all of 291 was an E/W. 

The reason behind not marking I-95 & US 13 in this area as E/W routes is due to those routes continuing beyond South Philly & Delaware County whereas 291 does not.

Once upon a time, much of I-95 (the CT Turnpike portion)  & US 1 in CT had E/W cardinals on trailblazer & assurance signs.

[Kacie Jane]

The way I'm reading it, the first two don't necessarily represent designations that were actually posted. Pennsylvania suggested one set of numbers in June, New Jersey suggested a different set in October, and the first ones actually posted would be the completely different set that AASHO approved in November.

But I would guess the same thing regardless. Though if an x95 number were ever posted, perhaps that would have been N/S?

Not necessarily; Center City (more precisely 30th St. Station) to the Walt Whitman Bridge is still more of an E/W direction rather than a N/S direction.  Elsewhere there are plenty of I-x95s that are E/W routes.

One needs to remember that the odd numbers being N/S and even numbers being E/W only applies to one or 2-digit Interstates (& US routes) not the 3-digit ones.

Regarding your last paragraph, of course. I was merely spitballing (and perhaps looking at a faulty mental map).

[StogieGuy7]

The two examples that come to mind involve fairly significant segments of much longer interstates: I-95 through Connecticut is a west-east highway for all intents and purposes.  Yes, I know it's farther "north" at the RI border than at the NY border, but not by much.  As people in that area use it as an east-west thoroughfare, it can be confusing as Stratford is not north of Bridgeport (it's east), nor is New Haven "south" of Brantford (it's actually northwest). 

Example #2 is I-94 between it's junction with I-80 (south of Chicago) to downtown Milwaukee.  It's almost entirely north-south for this 100+ mile stretch.  In fact, at one point, I-94 westbound actually curves east (and vice-versa) near it's connection with US-41 in northern Lake County, IL.   The signage says Chicago is "east" and Milwaukee is "west", which is 90 degrees off from reality. 

Of course, in each case, the overall interstate does follow it's appropriate cardinal direction but for the fairly significant stretches that serve the above-described regions, it's somewhat confusing.   

[keithvh]

I just drove the entirety of I-26 on Monday --- this one should definitely be north-south instead of east-west IMO.


Of course, there is the fact that I-26 runs fairly close to DUE North-South in both Tennessee and North Carolina.  But if we made I-26 N-S in South Carolina as well, we get the "zero mile marker" in downtown Charleston at the Ravenel Bridge Interchange --- the "zero mile marker" being there versus a relatively indistinct point along the NC/SC border would be pretty cool.  The Ravenel Bridge, of course, is a wonder to behold and fully worthy of being an interstate's "finishing point."

[JustDrive]

CA 183 between Castroville and Salinas is east-west, yet it's signed north-south.

The westernmost portion of CA 68 (west of the CA 1 overlap) is north-south, yet it's signed east-west

[TheStranger]

CA 183 between Castroville and Salinas is east-west, yet it's signed north-south.

Looks to me that 183 and 101 are relatively parallel in their trajectories; 183 still seems diagonal enough that north-south isn't illogical:

http://goo.gl/maps/8QiMS

[JustDrive]

I've always considered 183 to be east-west, since it connects 101 with 1.  And the portion within Salinas city limits along Market Street is east-west, and then there's that turn onto Main Street which gives it a wrong-way direction.

[Rover_0]

Interstate 82.

*Drops mic*

[TheStranger]

I've always considered 183 to be east-west, since it connects 101 with 1. 

Route 17 also connects 1 and 101 and is most definitely not east-west...(and further south there's Route 23 and Route 27, also north-south routes, though admittedly connecting 101 and 1 when the latter two are at their most east-west in trajectory)

For comparison, while Route 41 is mostly signed as a north-south route...I'm not sure if it is signed as north-south on the former US 466 portion that does connect Route 1 in Morro Bay with US 101 in Atascadero.

[roadman65]

US 62 in PA should be E-W instead of N-S.  Maybe north of US 6 it should be N-S to match New York, as in the Empire State is does run N-S more so than in PA.

Diagonal routes are always tricky.  Look at I-24.  It could also been a N-S odd numbered interstate the way it runs.  US 92 is tricky too as for most of it is running concurrent with N-S US 17.  Only east of DeLand for 24 miles,from Tampa to Lake Alfred, and the Gandy Bridge does US 92 really align close to its E-W signing.

[Kacie Jane]

US 92 is tricky too as for most of it is running concurrent with N-S US 17.  Only east of DeLand for 24 miles,from Tampa to Lake Alfred, and the Gandy Bridge does US 92 really align close to its E-W signing.

Personally, I don't see it as "tricky" at all.  Yes, it spends almost exactly half its length multiplexed with N/S US routes.  But even there, it's fairly SW/NE.  Before it hits US 17, it heads pretty solidly east for 70 miles on its own out of Tampa.  And I-4, the route it parallels for it's entire length, not just a section, is signed E/W as well.

I'd have a really hard time saying any route that connects the Gulf Coast with the Atlantic Coast should be signed N/S.  I'm sure there are more, but besides the Turnpike, the two exceptions I can think of (I-75 and US 41) both used to be signed E/W along the portion where they cross the peninsula.