LED lane markings

[KEK Inc.]

WSDOT just installed these on I-90 for the pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FgvTNIsCZg

Any more out there?  I believe there's one in LA that opened a while ago on the 110. 

[jakeroot]

Just drove over the pass yesterday to Moses Lake, and they were fantastically helpful. I-90 over Snoqualmie Pass has always had issues with visible lane lines (with or without snow) so this will be a very helpful addition (particularly in snowy and rainy conditions).

[adventurernumber1]

Wow, this looks interesting. I wonder if this road marking trend will catch on.

[jeffandnicole]

Just drove over the pass yesterday to Moses Lake, and they were fantastically helpful. I-90 over Snoqualmie Pass has always had issues with visible lane lines (with or without snow) so this will be a very helpful addition (particularly in snowy and rainy conditions).

OK, I get they'll be helpful when it rains.  But snows?  A light coating will have them covered quickly; an inch or more will render them useless.  And because they're LEDs, they won't melt the snow any faster.

[Billy F 1988]

WSDOT just installed these on I-90 for the pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FgvTNIsCZg

Any more out there?  I believe there's one in LA that opened a while ago on the 110.

Uh, how does this even help when 2 dadgum feet of snow is on top of them? Plainly useless to me. Don't expect this idea to come at any of Montana's passes anytime soon.

[jakeroot]

Just drove over the pass yesterday to Moses Lake, and they were fantastically helpful. I-90 over Snoqualmie Pass has always had issues with visible lane lines (with or without snow) so this will be a very helpful addition (particularly in snowy and rainy conditions).

OK, I get they'll be helpful when it rains.  But snows?  A light coating will have them covered quickly; an inch or more will render them useless.  And because they're LEDs, they won't melt the snow any faster.

Uh, how does this even help when 2 dadgum feet of snow is on top of them? Plainly useless to me. Don't expect this idea to come at any of Montana's passes anytime soon.

A light coating of snow renders lane lines useless...I'll take my chances with something that could be at least a degree more visible.

[Don'tKnowYet]

Serious question.  Does anyone know why they put them in every lane-skip gap instead of every other gap?  Is the effect that they look great or better from the fact that the RPM is "doubled up"?  What would be the physiologial effect if they were used in the customary every-other-gap spacing?

[jakeroot]

Serious question.  Does anyone know why they put them in every lane-skip gap instead of every other gap?  Is the effect that they look great or better from the fact that the RPM is "doubled up"?  What would be the physiologial effect if they were used in the customary every-other-gap spacing?

I think because the plowers, the de-icer, and the studded tires wear away the lane lines so quickly, they want this to (in certain weather conditions) completely replace lane lines. Therefore, every gap (should) be filled (unlike present-day reflectors, which are there as a supplement and therefore only need to placed every other gap).

This is a guess.

[cl94]

My question is this: How long will they last with the salt they put down on roads? That, and how much do the plows in Washington scrape the pavement, or do they use the "shoes" that prevent the metal from contacting the road? Salt wreaks havoc on anything metallic on the road. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I *think* this is why many snow-prone areas (i.e. Upstate New York) don't typically use embedded reflectors.

[Brandon]

My question is this: How long will they last with the salt they put down on roads? That, and how much do the plows in Washington scrape the pavement, or do they use the "shoes" that prevent the metal from contacting the road? Salt wreaks havoc on anything metallic on the road. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I *think* this is why many snow-prone areas (i.e. Upstate New York) don't typically use embedded reflectors.

However, some do use them.  Illinois is one of these states that has snow, uses salt, the plow blades touch the pavement, and uses embedded reflectors.

[KEK Inc.]

In snowy areas, they refrain from using Botts' Dots and indent cat-eyes so plows don't rip them up.  This of course, doesn't always work.  In the video I posted, these LEDs are indeed recessed like cat-eyes in that part of the state.

[cl94]

My question is this: How long will they last with the salt they put down on roads? That, and how much do the plows in Washington scrape the pavement, or do they use the "shoes" that prevent the metal from contacting the road? Salt wreaks havoc on anything metallic on the road. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I *think* this is why many snow-prone areas (i.e. Upstate New York) don't typically use embedded reflectors.

However, some do use them.  Illinois is one of these states that has snow, uses salt, the plow blades touch the pavement, and uses embedded reflectors.

Ohio and Pennsylvania do as well, but how much money actually goes into keeping the reflectors in good shape? There were/are quite a few in the Buffalo area that, from satellite imagery, date from the late 90s-early 2000s and none of them work. Quite a few of them are ripped apart, rusted out, or missing.

[jakeroot]

My question is this: How long will they last with the salt they put down on roads? That, and how much do the plows in Washington scrape the pavement, or do they use the "shoes" that prevent the metal from contacting the road? Salt wreaks havoc on anything metallic on the road. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I *think* this is why many snow-prone areas (i.e. Upstate New York) don't typically use embedded reflectors.

However, some do use them.  Illinois is one of these states that has snow, uses salt, the plow blades touch the pavement, and uses embedded reflectors.

Ohio and Pennsylvania do as well, but how much money actually goes into keeping the reflectors in good shape? There were/are quite a few in the Buffalo area that, from satellite imagery, date from the late 90s-early 2000s and none of them work. Quite a few of them are ripped apart, rusted out, or missing.

Much of Western Washington (particularly King County) use botts dots without any lane lines, with recessed reflectors in the shoulder. Some freeways (such as I-705 in Tacoma) are entirely botts dots.

As far as deicer, Washington does not use salt because of the Puget Sound. We use some other chemical that is supposedly better for the ocean critters. I haven't noticed their alternative fail to work so I won't complain about it.

When it does snow (which is rare), somehow the plows are able to plow over the botts dots. The consistent snow in the pass means the reflectors are carriageway-wide recessed so they don't even have to worry about ripping them up. This is how these LEDs will work -- they are recessed and therefore plow-resistant.

[roadfro]

Serious question.  Does anyone know why they put them in every lane-skip gap instead of every other gap?  Is the effect that they look great or better from the fact that the RPM is "doubled up"?  What would be the physiologial effect if they were used in the customary every-other-gap spacing?

This emulates a standard lane marking style that would be used for reflective raised pavement markers (one reflector in each gap). Another style used by Nevada, where RPMs are used without painted lane lines, is that the first raised marker forming the "line" is always reflective.

[Don'tKnowYet]

This emulates a standard lane marking style that would be used for reflective raised pavement markers (one reflector in each gap). Another style used by Nevada, where RPMs are used without painted lane lines, is that the first raised marker forming the "line" is always reflective.

your first statement is not entirely correct. Supplementing the longitudinal positioning is Paragraph 2 of Section 3B.12, resulting in the customary every other gap. Substituing for the lane line is what Nevada does and this is different, addressed by Section 3B.14

[dfwmapper]

As far as deicer, Washington does not use salt because of the Puget Sound. We use some other chemical that is supposedly better for the ocean critters. I haven't noticed their alternative fail to work so I won't complain about it.

They don't use salt because it might run off into a body of saltwater? This has me curious. Any chance you know of any articles that have talked about this? Not finding anything with a quick Google.

[jakeroot]

As far as deicer, Washington does not use salt because of the Puget Sound. We use some other chemical that is supposedly better for the ocean critters. I haven't noticed their alternative fail to work so I won't complain about it.

They don't use salt because it might run off into a body of saltwater? This has me curious. Any chance you know of any articles that have talked about this? Not finding anything with a quick Google.

At least Seattle DOT is pretty public about their refusal to use salt: Seattle Times

WSDOTs website doesn't mention salt, except their less-than-favorable approach to abrasives: WSDOT

[KEK Inc.]

Botts' Dots are desireable in areas with high rainfall, since painted lane markings can be hard to see on wet pavement.   The lower parts of Pierce, King and Snohomish counties rarely get snow, so that's why it's a desirable option there.  Ever drive through east Portland after a good rain on I-205 at night?

Increased salinity can still affect salt water marine life; other issues stem from faster corrosion of road hardware and older cars.

[jeffandnicole]

As far as deicer, Washington does not use salt because of the Puget Sound. We use some other chemical that is supposedly better for the ocean critters. I haven't noticed their alternative fail to work so I won't complain about it.

They don't use salt because it might run off into a body of saltwater? This has me curious. Any chance you know of any articles that have talked about this? Not finding anything with a quick Google.

Talk to any tree hugger.  There are lots of issues with salt.  But, it's extremely cheap, compared to some other options.  It also depends on where one is.  In the mid-west, they use beet juice.  Even if it's cheap, it would be cheap for that area.  Transporting it around the country would seriously add to the cost.

[TEG24601]

I like this idea, especially in Washington where the drizzle makes it difficult to the the lane markings, day or night.  However, I still think glowing blocks embedded in the roadway would be a better solution overall.


I'm also curious if these are on mains power, batteries, or solar panels.


---
As per the rest of the discussion:

Washington and Oregon have rubber on the bottom of the blades.  This was done to prevent them from ripping up the botts dots, reflectors, and turtles, but all it seems to do is remove the snow from the road and leave a thin layer of Ice or compacted snow to drive on.


It was my observation that up until 2008, Washington and Oregon largely used only sand on the roads, to allow for traction, but it would have to be applied each day as the snow melt would absorb it.  It wasn't until my 7 years in Michigan that I got an appreciation for metal-on-road plows and salt.  However, unlike Western Washington, the sun actually comes out after the snow so that likely helps.


Since the Snowpocalypse of 2008, there have been more sales on personal rock salt in the winter, WSDOT uses a diluted deicer before freezing evens on the the highways, and salt is used in select areas, but sand is still preferred.

[DaBigE]

I like this idea, especially in Washington where the drizzle makes it difficult to the the lane markings, day or night.  However, I still think glowing blocks embedded in the roadway would be a better solution overall.


I'm also curious if these are on mains power, batteries, or solar panels.

According to the YouTube caption, they're solar powered.

[cl94]

As per the rest of the discussion:

Washington and Oregon have rubber on the bottom of the blades.  This was done to prevent them from ripping up the botts dots, reflectors, and turtles, but all it seems to do is remove the snow from the road and leave a thin layer of Ice or compacted snow to drive on.

It was my observation that up until 2008, Washington and Oregon largely used only sand on the roads, to allow for traction, but it would have to be applied each day as the snow melt would absorb it.  It wasn't until my 7 years in Michigan that I got an appreciation for metal-on-road plows and salt.  However, unlike Western Washington, the sun actually comes out after the snow so that likely helps.

That's what I thought. You really appreciate metal-on-road plows if you live somewhere with a lot of snow and you wish everywhere did it when you spend most of your life somewhere that was the norm (Upstate New York in my case). Only problem is that everything gets torn apart (including asphalt) and you can't have reflectors and the like.

[roadfro]

This emulates a standard lane marking style that would be used for reflective raised pavement markers (one reflector in each gap). Another style used by Nevada, where RPMs are used without painted lane lines, is that the first raised marker forming the "line" is always reflective.

your first statement is not entirely correct. Supplementing the longitudinal positioning is Paragraph 2 of Section 3B.12, resulting in the customary every other gap. Substituing for the lane line is what Nevada does and this is different, addressed by Section 3B.14

Well, there are some areas where reflectors are placed in every gap (fairly sure this is a California standard, and Nevada DOT does have this in a detail even though it is not widely used). Even if it's not a nationwide standard, MUTCD Section 3B.12 p03 clearly allows the option to place reflectors in every line gap where changes in the travel path occur, such as on curves–which answers your original question.

[wisvishr0]

In snowy areas, they refrain from using Botts' Dots and indent cat-eyes so plows don't rip them up.  This of course, doesn't always work.  In the video I posted, these LEDs are indeed recessed like cat-eyes in that part of the state.

Yup, we use quite a few cat's eyes (or is it "cats' eyes" in the plural form?) here in Maryland. I inspected a few of them closely, and they're indeed buried in the asphalt. We get snow regularly here in the NW suburbs of DC (about as much as Philly), so that's very useful. They're especially helpful in the rain.

[SteveG1988]

The problem with rock salt is that it is actually bad for puget sound. basically, it am not sure what the concentration of natural salt in there is so let's just generalize it here okay, let's say it is Brackish water, like parts of the gulf of mexico, basically slightly salty, some fish cannot live in it, other fish thrive in it. You use too much rock salt, it runs off and into it, you could potentially take it from weak brackish water to strong brackish water, making it so what lives there now cannot live there. Plus you also get the runoff that comes with the rock salt that may not be as easily tranported via their alternative product, such as oil and grease or even spilled diesel/gasoline. Diesel does stick around on a road if it spills.