Traffic Signals that make no sense

[roadfro]

Their existence doesn't mean that current rules allow them. There are green-ball-only heads here in Wichita, but I remember someone on here saying something about a prohibition. Don't remember any details, too lazy to look it up.

According to the MUTCD:

08 -- Arrows shall be pointed:

* Vertically upward to indicate a straight-through movement, or
* Horizontally in the direction of the turn to indicate a turn at approximately or greater than a right angle, or
* Upward with a slope at an angle approximately equal to that of the turn if the angle of the turn is substantially less than a right angle, or
* In a manner that directs the driver through the turn if a U-turn arrow is used (see Figure 4D-1).

Your MUTCD quote is used out of context. That section describes the orientation of arrows if used, but does not mandate that an arrow shall be used.

The relevant standard is in Section 4D.08: Positions of Signal Indications Within a Signal Face - General

Standard:
02 Unless otherwise provided in this Manual for a particular application, each signal face at a signalized location shall have three, four, or five signal sections. Unless otherwise provided in this Manual for a particular application, if a vertical signal face includes a cluster (see Section 4D.09), the signal face shall have at least three vertical positions.
03 A single-section signal face shall be permitted at a traffic control signal if it consists of a continuously-displayed GREEN ARROW signal indication that is being used to indicate a continuous movement.

[kphoger]

^^ So a green ball only is not allowed, whereas a green up arrow only is allowed. Right?

[roadfro]

^^ So a green ball only is not allowed, whereas a green up arrow only is allowed. Right?

Correct -- although the green arrow can be oriented in any allowable direction associated with a continuous movement (it need not be vertical; for example, it could be a right arrow for a continuous right turn).

[jakeroot]

^^ So a green ball only is not allowed, whereas a green up arrow only is allowed. Right?

Correct -- although the green arrow can be oriented in any allowable direction associated with a continuous movement (it need not be vertical; for example, it could be a right arrow for a continuous right turn).

Which is where my original quote comes into play, correct? God I hate the MUTCD. So many sections. Next version needs to be narrowed down to like 4 pages.

[Alex4897]

This concept has been mentioned earlier but I have an example of my own:
DE 2 just east of DE 7 at the entrance to a shopping center.  The mainline never turns red.

[6a]

Is there a reason only one of the red balls are lit in each signal?

[kj3400]

I'm gonna go ahead and say the other light is for when the signal is in flashing red mode, when cars would be able to turn after yielding.

[6a]

Ok, didn't know that was a thing, thanks.

[M3019C LPS20]

I'm gonna go ahead and say the other light is for when the signal is in flashing red mode, when cars would be able to turn after yielding.

Yes, that is correct. I have seen some similar traffic signals like those two above.

[signalman]

Absolutely correct.  What I've always found amusing is that Delaware uses red arrows for turn signals, except for the T signals (what I always refer to them as).  The flashing red (permissive turn phase) is an arrow, however.

[Alex4897]

It's basically an FYA with a red arrow.  Delaware has (had?) a tendency to use these in situations where I suppose they felt a simple doghouse wasn't sufficient.

[signalman]

DelDOT used the T signals on high speed roads, where aproaching traffic is moving at 55+ mph.  The flashing red arrow requires one to stop before proceeding with their left turn, as opposed to a doghouse or flashing yellow arrow where one need not stop if there is no opposing traffic.  Many of these installations also have signage accompanying them that reads "Turn with caution on flashing red after stop".

Personally, I like the idea behind them.  It allows permissive turns; albeit a bit more restrictive than most PPLT signals.  There is also a protected phase, which comes in handy when opposing traffic is heavy or when a driver deems it unsafe to make a left turn during the permissive phase.

[jeffandnicole]

DelDOT used the T signals on high speed roads, where aproaching traffic is moving at 55+ mph.  The flashing red arrow requires one to stop before proceeding with their left turn, as opposed to a doghouse or flashing yellow arrow where one need not stop if there is no opposing traffic.  Many of these installations also have signage accompanying them that reads "Turn with caution on flashing red after stop".

Personally, I like the idea behind them.  It allows permissive turns; albeit a bit more restrictive than most PPLT signals.  There is also a protected phase, which comes in handy when opposing traffic is heavy or when a driver deems it unsafe to make a left turn during the permissive phase.

They use the 'T' signals on lower speed roads as well. I believe Kirkwood Rd is 45 mph in the area of these signals.

[signalman]

DelDOT used the T signals on high speed roads, where aproaching traffic is moving at 55+ mph.  The flashing red arrow requires one to stop before proceeding with their left turn, as opposed to a doghouse or flashing yellow arrow where one need not stop if there is no opposing traffic.  Many of these installations also have signage accompanying them that reads "Turn with caution on flashing red after stop".

Personally, I like the idea behind them.  It allows permissive turns; albeit a bit more restrictive than most PPLT signals.  There is also a protected phase, which comes in handy when opposing traffic is heavy or when a driver deems it unsafe to make a left turn during the permissive phase.

They use the 'T' signals on lower speed roads as well. I believe Kirkwood Rd is 45 mph in the area of these signals.

You're right.  I forgot about that installation.  Generally, they are found on higher speed arterials or expressways.  They are not limited to these roads, however.

[UCFKnights]

DelDOT used the T signals on high speed roads, where aproaching traffic is moving at 55+ mph.  The flashing red arrow requires one to stop before proceeding with their left turn, as opposed to a doghouse or flashing yellow arrow where one need not stop if there is no opposing traffic.  Many of these installations also have signage accompanying them that reads "Turn with caution on flashing red after stop".

Personally, I like the idea behind them.  It allows permissive turns; albeit a bit more restrictive than most PPLT signals.  There is also a protected phase, which comes in handy when opposing traffic is heavy or when a driver deems it unsafe to make a left turn during the permissive phase.

Wouldn't it make it less safe on the higher speed roads? Vehicles having to come to a stop before an opening in traffic makes sure they are going to be in the intersection much longer then the FYA where they just need to yield and can adjust their speed to allow a larger opening and less time in the intersection. My understanding is the FYA is supposed to replace them as well.

[steviep24]

NY is using the flashing red arrow now. Come across this one last week at NY 104 at Furnace Rd. in Ontario.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.227454,-77.281641,3a,37.5y,281.8h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sc8VKEBksHqkfH9n2rvmw7Q!2e0?hl=en

[jeffandnicole]

DelDOT used the T signals on high speed roads, where aproaching traffic is moving at 55+ mph.  The flashing red arrow requires one to stop before proceeding with their left turn, as opposed to a doghouse or flashing yellow arrow where one need not stop if there is no opposing traffic.  Many of these installations also have signage accompanying them that reads "Turn with caution on flashing red after stop".

Personally, I like the idea behind them.  It allows permissive turns; albeit a bit more restrictive than most PPLT signals.  There is also a protected phase, which comes in handy when opposing traffic is heavy or when a driver deems it unsafe to make a left turn during the permissive phase.

Wouldn't it make it less safe on the higher speed roads? Vehicles having to come to a stop before an opening in traffic makes sure they are going to be in the intersection much longer then the FYA where they just need to yield and can adjust their speed to allow a larger opening and less time in the intersection. My understanding is the FYA is supposed to replace them as well.

It could be the reason they want traffic to stop is to prevent traffic from under-estimating the speed of oncoming traffic before they turn. 

Of course, the flashing red arrow is treated much like a flashing yellow arrow anyway, in terms of people actually coming to a stop.

[Alex4897]

DelDOT used the T signals on high speed roads, where aproaching traffic is moving at 55+ mph.  The flashing red arrow requires one to stop before proceeding with their left turn, as opposed to a doghouse or flashing yellow arrow where one need not stop if there is no opposing traffic.  Many of these installations also have signage accompanying them that reads "Turn with caution on flashing red after stop".

Personally, I like the idea behind them.  It allows permissive turns; albeit a bit more restrictive than most PPLT signals.  There is also a protected phase, which comes in handy when opposing traffic is heavy or when a driver deems it unsafe to make a left turn during the permissive phase.

They use the 'T' signals on lower speed roads as well. I believe Kirkwood Rd is 45 mph in the area of these signals.

Yea, I think Kirkwood Highway is 45 for its entirety (at least until you hit Newark, but at that point most people refer to it as Capitol Trail).

[signalman]

DelDOT used the T signals on high speed roads, where aproaching traffic is moving at 55+ mph.  The flashing red arrow requires one to stop before proceeding with their left turn, as opposed to a doghouse or flashing yellow arrow where one need not stop if there is no opposing traffic.  Many of these installations also have signage accompanying them that reads "Turn with caution on flashing red after stop".

Personally, I like the idea behind them.  It allows permissive turns; albeit a bit more restrictive than most PPLT signals.  There is also a protected phase, which comes in handy when opposing traffic is heavy or when a driver deems it unsafe to make a left turn during the permissive phase.

Wouldn't it make it less safe on the higher speed roads? Vehicles having to come to a stop before an opening in traffic makes sure they are going to be in the intersection much longer then the FYA where they just need to yield and can adjust their speed to allow a larger opening and less time in the intersection. My understanding is the FYA is supposed to replace them as well.

No.  The stop bar is on an angle for better visibility for the turning vehicles and cars aren't stopped in the intersection.  The FYA is not going to replace them either, unless DelDOT wants to replace them.  FRA are still permissible.

[dfnva]

Are green up arrows permitted?

I see them all the time where I live, so I would think?

EDIT: Example near where I live:

Virginia (VDOT) used to extensively use upward pointed green arrows in situations like this one above, particularly when there was a protected left turn signal.

Few examples remain, one at VA-244/Columbia Pike at John Marr Dr in Annandale was replaced within the last year....
* https://goo.gl/maps/Dp7e3 -- Old signals in operation until 2012 (final VDOT-installed/operated Marbelites in operation in Northern Virginia)
* https://goo.gl/maps/qXl1M -- Carbon copy McCains installed in 2012 retaining the old-style of use of arrows.
* https://goo.gl/maps/YYkmU -- Replaced again in 2014 with green ball indications.

[1995hoo]

You can find two of those single-head green up arrows in Virginia on the eastbound Commerce Street overpass above I-95 at the T-intersection with the ramp to I-495 towards Tysons. No need for the two thru lanes ever to have a light color other than green, but the left turn lane onto the ramp has a full doghouse signal....can't say I've ever seen it turn red, though, and there's no real reason for it ever to turn red. A flashing yellow arrow would make more sense there.

I'd post a link except the Google Maps app won't give me one when I use Street View.

Edited to add: Here's the Street View link. https://www.google.com/maps/@38.781346,-77.179159,3a,75y,111.04h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1snz3LLfeHvp_3Q4M1dQZLoQ!2e0

[DevalDragon]

I'll throw this one out here in Old Traffic Signal in Navarre Ohio

[signalman]

I'll throw this one out here in Old Traffic Signal in Navarre Ohio

I don't quite understand why the signal closest to the camera is positioned where it is.  Also, is that parked pickup on the right technically in the intersection since it's in front of the stop bar?

Edit: The second photo isn't showing up for me. 

[Beeper1]

This concept has been mentioned earlier but I have an example of my own:
DE 2 just east of DE 7 at the entrance to a shopping center.  The mainline never turns red.

There's a setup exactly like this in Auburn, MA where US-20 EB and MA-12 NB split.  There are signals for the mainline of US-20 EB but they never change, just stay as green.  That intersection is currently being rebuilt so I dont know if those particular lights will stay or if they will be removed. It doesn't look like the new layout of the intersection will change the fact that EB 20 has no traffic crossing or merging into it.

[M3019C LPS20]

I'll throw this one out here in Old Traffic Signal in Navarre Ohio

Is there a firehouse in the immediate area?