Inconsistencies in signing

[roadman65]

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.233841,-75.239124,3a,75y,204.37h,84.12t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sh1bHH9n_vHDvDUp-rzIAWw!2e0

Here is one that I find interesting.  The US 202 shield here gets an upward and right arrow along with SECOND RIGHT to help ease confusion with the road that is immeadiately to the right.  However, the control cities for US 202 are not the same here with its directional arrows as they are to the right.  The cities of Doylestown and Norristown were both not made to help aid motorists in the same manner as the shield.  You would think that the person at PennDOT who thought of the SECOND RIGHT sign for US 202, would do the same for its control cities.

I thought about placing this in erroneous signs thread, but I do not think this counts as erroneous as much as inconsistent.  Plus I know that this is starting to become more common where the shields and the directional control have not so consistent arrows, but this one with the added on SECOND RIGHT for one and not the other is rather somewhat interesting to discuss.

[slorydn1]

Honestly, I believe that person who thought of the SECOND RIGHT sign was thinking of the use of it covered the entire installation of signs, that everything above the SECOND RIGHT sign was covered by it and that motorists would understand that the way to get to the listed control cities would be by turning on US-202 at the second right and not by turning onto what appears to be a very minor road (driveway into a parking lot, perhaps)?  At least that's the way I would take that sign installation if I were actually driving up to it in my car.

[NE2]

Arkansas frequently uses advance turn arrows on green guide signs.

[PHLBOS]

Signs for I-276 (PA Turnpike) eastbound:

Most if not all of them originally listed New Jersey as a control destination.  However, due to the MUTCDFHWA prohibition of state names as destinations (I disagree 100% with MUTCDFHWA on this one), some newer PennDOT installments use either Philadelphia (which is totally wrong IMHO) or NJ Tpk - New York (one could argue whether the latter is either the state or the city). 

Ironically, nearly every recent replacement BGS along the Turnpike/NE Extension mainline (PTC installations) still the old-school New Jersey listing, MUTCDFHWA prohibition be damned.

Should push come to shove regarding state name destination prohibitions; using Bensalem as an I-276 East destination through Willow Grove (Exit 343 - PA 611) would be a logical compromise.  Between the Bensalem (Exit 351 - US 1) interchange and the future I-95 interchange; either Bristol, TO NJ Tpk or even New York could be used as I-276 eastbound control destinations.

[roadfro]

Most if not all of them originally listed New Jersey as a control destination.  However, due to the MUTCD prohibition of state names as destinations (I disagree 100% with MUTCD on this one), some newer PennDOT installments use either Philadelphia (which is totally wrong IMHO) or NJ Tpk - New York (one could argue whether the latter is either the state or the city). 

While all references in the MUTCD refer to destinations or control cities, there doesn't appear to be a specific prohibition against using state names as the control. Even the street name/control city separation is a guidance (not a standard).

[PHLBOS]

Most if not all of them originally listed New Jersey as a control destination.  However, due to the MUTCDFHWA prohibition of state names as destinations (I disagree 100% with MUTCDFHWA on this one), some newer PennDOT installments use either Philadelphia (which is totally wrong IMHO) or NJ Tpk - New York (one could argue whether the latter is either the state or the city). 

While all references in the MUTCD refer to destinations or control cities, there doesn't appear to be a specific prohibition against using state names as the control. Even the street name/control city separation is a guidance (not a standard).

If it's not directly from MUTCD; then it might beIt's a directive from either FHWA or AASHTO.  All I know is that there has been a very noticable shift from listing state names as destinations in recent years.  Somebody out can feel free to confirm/clarify.  Clarified by Roadman in the reply below.  All references in previous post have been modified/corrected as required.

[roadman]

Eliminating state names in favor of cities when signs are updated, at least in Massachusetts, was based on a directive from the regional FHWA office in the early 1990s.  I would presume that the regional office got their direction from DC.

[Revive 755]

^ The FHWA office for Illinois must not care, especially since "Iowa" has started appearing as a control for I-88 on side roads.

[cjk374]

Iowa has been a control point even way down in south Louisiana:     https://www.google.com/maps/@30.250628,-92.998589,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s5KfMqhMsPH3KRnmTfZyXaA!2e0

But in this case, it's a town that is pronounced "I-way".

[roadman]

^ Or, as Yogi Bear would pronounce it,  "Eye-Oh-Way!"

[Brandon]

^ The FHWA office for Illinois must not care, especially since "Iowa" has started appearing as a control for I-88 on side roads.

That's ISTHA.  IDOT District 1 also doesn't give a shit as evidenced by "Iowa", "Indiana", and "Wisconsin" showing up all over the place.  I'm surprised "Missouri" hasn't replaced "St Louis" yet.

[Zeffy]

Eliminating state names in favor of cities when signs are updated, at least in Massachusetts, was based on a directive from the regional FHWA office in the early 1990s.  I would presume that the regional office got their direction from DC.

There's nothing wrong with state names for control cities though. It's a practice I would have rather seen continued rather than eliminating. The sign PHLBOS posted with New Jersey is a perfect example - how exactly are you going to put a control city on I-276 east when it doesn't even enter New Jersey and all the small towns it passes are probably too small to list? The closest is Trenton, which is incorrect. Of course, once I-95 is routed up there it will probably be replaced with New York City, and we'll get shunned like Maryland does with ignoring the three states before New York on their I-95 signs.

[PHLBOS]

There's nothing wrong with state names for control cities though. It's a practice I would have rather seen continued rather than eliminating. The sign PHLBOS posted with New Jersey is a perfect example - how exactly are you going to put a control city on I-276 east when it doesn't even enter New Jersey and all the small towns it passes are probably too small to list? The closest is Trenton, which is incorrect. Of course, once I-95 is routed up there it will probably be replaced with New York City, and we'll get shunned like Maryland does with ignoring the three states before New York on their I-95 signs.

Such was the reason why I mentioned using Bensalem from I-276 East signs from Valley Forge (Exit 326) through Willow Grove (Exit 343) and possibly Bristol or TO 95 NJ Tpk from Bensalem (Exit 351/US 1) to the new I-95 interchange as an option. 

Although using Trenton en lieu of Bensalem could work as well (Trenton on the Exit 351 BGS' (as a US 1 North destination off I-276)).

[bzakharin]

In some places, though, there is only one way to enter a state. With New Jersey, I would argue that from the I-95/I-295 split in Delaware, I-295 / Delaware Memorial Bridge is really the way to access New Jersey regardless of where in the state you're going. Similarly, from anywhere along and close to I-95 in New York state, the George Washington Bridge is the only option into NJ.

[PHLBOS]

In some places, though, there is only one way to enter a state. With New Jersey, I would argue that from the I-95/I-295 split in Delaware, I-295 / Delaware Memorial Bridge is really the way to access New Jersey regardless of where in the state you're going. Similarly, from anywhere along and close to I-95 in New York state, the George Washington Bridge is the only option into NJ.

I agree with you 100%.  Unfortunately, FHWA no longer sees eye-to-eye on this.

[mrsman]

There's nothing wrong with state names for control cities though. It's a practice I would have rather seen continued rather than eliminating. The sign PHLBOS posted with New Jersey is a perfect example - how exactly are you going to put a control city on I-276 east when it doesn't even enter New Jersey and all the small towns it passes are probably too small to list? The closest is Trenton, which is incorrect. Of course, once I-95 is routed up there it will probably be replaced with New York City, and we'll get shunned like Maryland does with ignoring the three states before New York on their I-95 signs.

Such was the reason why I mentioned using Bensalem from I-276 East signs from Valley Forge (Exit 326) through Willow Grove (Exit 343) and possibly Bristol or TO 95 NJ Tpk from Bensalem (Exit 351/US 1) to the new I-95 interchange as an option. 

Although using Trenton en lieu of Bensalem could work as well (Trenton on the Exit 351 BGS' (as a US 1 North destination off I-276)).

I'd say that from Valley Forge:  I-276 PENN TURNPIKE / Bensalem
From US 1: I-276 to NJTP / New York City

After the completion of I-95 interchange:
From Valley Forge:  I-276 PENN TURNPIKE / Bensalem
From US 1: I-276 to I-95 NJTP/New York City
From I-95 interchange: I-95 NORTH to NJTP/ New York City

Of course the northbound NJTP should have controls showing New York City continuously from at least this point northward. If they also wish to include Newark as well, that would be fine.

[machias]

Eliminating state names in favor of cities when signs are updated, at least in Massachusetts, was based on a directive from the regional FHWA office in the early 1990s.  I would presume that the regional office got their direction from DC.

There's nothing wrong with state names for control cities though. It's a practice I would have rather seen continued rather than eliminating. The sign PHLBOS posted with New Jersey is a perfect example - how exactly are you going to put a control city on I-276 east when it doesn't even enter New Jersey and all the small towns it passes are probably too small to list? The closest is Trenton, which is incorrect. Of course, once I-95 is routed up there it will probably be replaced with New York City, and we'll get shunned like Maryland does with ignoring the three states before New York on their I-95 signs.

I wonder if this is why NYSDOT and the NYSTA are starting to use "New York City" instead of "New York", which irks me because technically there's no legal entity called "The City of New York City".

[odditude]

I wonder if this is why NYSDOT and the NYSTA are starting to use "New York City" instead of "New York", which irks me because technically there's no legal entity called "The City of New York City".

It's the most commonly used name for the city, and serves as disambiguation.

[NE2]

There's no legal entity called "Washington, D.C.".

[The Nature Boy]

There's no legal entity called "Washington, D.C.".

The city of Washington in the District of Columbia?

[NE2]

The city of New York?

[corco]

There's no legal entity called "Washington, D.C.".

The city of Washington in the District of Columbia?

The city of Washington hasn't existed since 1871.

[ekt8750]

Signs for I-276 (PA Turnpike) eastbound:

Most if not all of them originally listed New Jersey as a control destination.  However, due to the MUTCDFHWA prohibition of state names as destinations (I disagree 100% with MUTCDFHWA on this one), some newer PennDOT installments use either Philadelphia (which is totally wrong IMHO) or NJ Tpk - New York (one could argue whether the latter is either the state or the city). 

Ironically, nearly every recent replacement BGS along the Turnpike/NE Extension mainline (PTC installations) still the old-school New Jersey listing, MUTCDFHWA prohibition be damned.

Should push come to shove regarding state name destination prohibitions; using Bensalem as an I-276 East destination through Willow Grove (Exit 343 - PA 611) would be a logical compromise.  Between the Bensalem (Exit 351 - US 1) interchange and the future I-95 interchange; either Bristol, TO NJ Tpk or even New York could be used as I-276 eastbound control destinations.

Side note it's nice to see PTC properly using Clearview these days.

[The Nature Boy]

There's no legal entity called "Washington, D.C.".

The city of Washington in the District of Columbia?

The city of Washington hasn't existed since 1871.

Interesting. I guess I never realized that "Washington" is not even legally apart of the city's name any more.

[Occidental Tourist]

On State Route 22 approaching East Long Beach, is the speed limit 45 at this point or about to be 45?