I fucking ABHOR protected left turn arrows

[bugo]

It is ridiculous to sit in the left lane of an urban street with no traffic coming in the opposite direction for miles and not being able to make a left turn until the lights cycle. I can understand why the DOTs disallow left turns without the arrow in heavy traffic, but why not program the signals to have a regular green light from, say, 10pm to 7am. Yes, I have been the victim of the dreaded no turns on red light many times and yes, I've blown through them many times. The law should be written that if there is time to make the turn safely, then make the turn. I would go even further and say the state legislatures should ban left turn arrows except on dangerous intersections and only during the day.

[signalman]

I've been a victim of many of these and eventually turned on red at night as well.  IMO, situations like these could use a FYA.  The signal could be programmed to be protected only during peak hours, then switched to FYA the rest of the time; only turning red when the cross street has green.

[Zeffy]

This intersection has caused me to wait UNTIL SOMEONE PULLED UP ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE INTERSECTION BEFORE CHANGING. That's NOT okay. It took about 3 1/2 minutes before the signal did change, and considering the city I was in I thought about blowing through it when there was nothing remotely dangerous about doing it, but I've lately been seeing more actual Trenton PD cars scattered throughout the streets, so I didn't feel like chancing it.

But I agree with bugo - these things need a fucking change. I can't believe I had to sit in a turn lane for nearly 4 minutes because the cycle was dependent on someone being at the opposite side of the intersection.

[NE2]

This intersection has caused me to wait UNTIL SOMEONE PULLED UP ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE INTERSECTION BEFORE CHANGING. That's NOT okay. It took about 3 1/2 minutes before the signal did change, and considering the city I was in I thought about blowing through it when there was nothing remotely dangerous about doing it, but I've lately been seeing more actual Trenton PD cars scattered throughout the streets, so I didn't feel like chancing it.

Welcome to road biking 101.

[Big John]

^^ I only see traffic detectors in the pavement in only 1 of the left-turn lanes and I don't see any optical detectors.  Somebody dropped the ball there.

[Bickendan]

You want flashing yellow lights.
And NE2's right -- bikes have a hell of a time trying to trip a protected green arrow, even when the sensor wires are obvious and even when the city paints where the bike's supposed to go.

[Zeffy]

You want flashing yellow lights.
And NE2's right -- bikes have a hell of a time trying to trip a protected green arrow, even when the sensor wires are obvious and even when the city paints where the bike's supposed to go.

I would love a FYA here. It would work way better than this shit. Actually, a lot of Trenton's signals seem poorly timed. Maybe it was just that the traffic is a lot less on Sunday then other days so the lights are timed for the busy days. Which is stupid.

EDIT: Not to mention this fad is sweeping Hillsborough. Two of our intersections have been replaced with these monstrosities. Sometimes they work decent. Other times I'll go other ways to avoid them.

[wphiii]

I've been a victim of many of these and eventually turned on red at night as well.  IMO, situations like these could use a FYA.  The signal could be programmed to be protected only during peak hours, then switched to FYA the rest of the time; only turning red when the cross street has green.

Around here, a lot of the intersections with a left turn arrow part of the cycle just turn to straight green when the protected phase ends. Seems to work pretty well.

This is a big one, and it's either all green, red with green left-turn arrow (during the protected phase), or all red. The left-turning traffic is never prohibited from making the turn while the traffic alongside it is allowed to move.

[texaskdog]

I hate the intersections that have the left arrow AND the traffic going straight.  It turns red and the other direction does the same.  I prefer the MN signals:  The left turners go first and when the line subsides all straight traffic goes.  Left turners can still go, unprotected.

[1995hoo]

This morning I got stuck at the light leaving my neighborhood because I got there just 15 or 20 seconds too late: Traffic coming the other way on my street had gotten a green and if I'm not there before that green comes on, the light makes me wait through the whole light cycle before my side will get a green. I hate that. Waste of time, waste of gas idling, bad for the air to have people idling....if it had been midday with nobody around I might have run the light, but there were too many people on the other street to risk it in case one was an unmarked cop or some such. I wish the detection loop could trigger the green mid-cycle. Doesn't need to be an arrow. The current signal head there is the usual Virginia doghouse (huge improvement from when I moved to my house in 2001 and neither direction had an arrow, just straight green circles both at the same time).

[tradephoric]

Part of the problem is duel (and even triple) left turn lanes are becoming more common to combat congestion.  Agencies are extremely hesitant to provide permissive left turns at intersections with dual left turns.  Sure, you get increased capacity at 5PM but at 2AM drivers are needlessly waiting at a protected left turn.

[1995hoo]

Part of the problem is duel (and even triple) left turn lanes are becoming more common to combat congestion.  Agencies are extremely hesitant to provide permissive left turns at intersections with dual left turns.  Sure, you get increased capacity at 5PM but at 2AM drivers are needlessly waiting at a protected left turn.

This is understandable especially when there's also a dual turn in the other direction. Sometimes it's hard enough to see around large vehicle in a single permissive turn lane. Dual lanes would just make that worse.

Regarding your very valid point about late nights, I miss the days when some traffic lights around here used to go on flash overnight, especially lights outside strip malls and the like. The street would have a flashing yellow and the shopping area a flashing red.

[roadman65]

I hate the intersections that have the left arrow AND the traffic going straight.  It turns red and the other direction does the same.  I prefer the MN signals:  The left turners go first and when the line subsides all straight traffic goes.  Left turners can still go, unprotected.

Florida has been doing that for years.  I argued with a friend of mine (now retired for health reasons) who worked for Orange County Traffic Engineering in Signal Maintenance, that the way signals in Florida now have the left turn arrow at the same time as the through sucks.  He said to me that no matter where the left turn cycles, the same amount of red and green time exists.  I tend to disagree as the timing in his department is not doing that.

What is worse is the placement in rotation for the left turn protected left changes throughout the day.  Sometimes its at first when the through movement goes green and then at another part of the day its at the end of the through cycle.  Sometimes it changes from day to day as one day on John Young Parkway in Orlando at Town Center Boulevard it will be at the start of the through and go there the same time another day (weekday I mind you, as I can see the difference between Saturday and Monday for example) it will be at the end of the through movement.

To get to the OP, yes I hate it when we are forced to sit there and wait for a light to change when there is absolutely NO oncoming traffic!  It happens a lot to me and yes I can see part time left turn signals at those times in the day.  In fact Delaware does it where they will flash the red ball for the protected left turn signal and allow the motorist to turn left at certain off peak times after a full stop that no one ever makes.

[Bickendan]

Part of the problem is duel (and even triple) left turn lanes are becoming more common to combat congestion.  Agencies are extremely hesitant to provide permissive left turns at intersections with dual left turns.  Sure, you get increased capacity at 5PM but at 2AM drivers are needlessly waiting at a protected left turn.

This is understandable especially when there's also a dual turn in the other direction. Sometimes it's hard enough to see around large vehicle in a single permissive turn lane. Dual lanes would just make that worse.

Regarding your very valid point about late nights, I miss the days when some traffic lights around here used to go on flash overnight, especially lights outside strip malls and the like. The street would have a flashing yellow and the shopping area a flashing red.

Alternative solution is for sensors to automatically trip the signal the moment a car (or bike) hits the sensor during the overnight phases.

[roadman65]

Or go back to flashing the signals at night.  We do that for some between 2 AM and 5 AM on Orange Blossom Trail and allow free movements on OBT and just a normal STOP sign type of deal for the side roads.

[jeffandnicole]

This intersection has caused me to wait UNTIL SOMEONE PULLED UP ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE INTERSECTION BEFORE CHANGING. That's NOT okay. It took about 3 1/2 minutes before the signal did change, and considering the city I was in I thought about blowing through it when there was nothing remotely dangerous about doing it, but I've lately been seeing more actual Trenton PD cars scattered throughout the streets, so I didn't feel like chancing it.

But I agree with bugo - these things need a fucking change. I can't believe I had to sit in a turn lane for nearly 4 minutes because the cycle was dependent on someone being at the opposite side of the intersection.

^^ I only see traffic detectors in the pavement in only 1 of the left-turn lanes and I don't see any optical detectors.  Somebody dropped the ball there.

I travel thru this intersection at least 4 times a week.  I'm guessing what you experienced is called "a malfunction". 

In my experiences, this intersection works normally.  Obviously, when motorists are in the opposing left turn lanes, both sides will get the left turn arrow.  But I've been at the intersection where only one side or the other has a vehicle, and just that left turn light has turned green.

As far as the lack of traffic detectors, take a look at GSV again. They are there on both sides.  The intersection was recently reconstructed and new pavement put down on one side of the intersection which allows them to be more easily seen, but they exist on both left turn lanes.

https://goo.gl/maps/2Nvtl & https://goo.gl/maps/EHL03

It's also a good time to bring up this: If something doesn't appear right, it probably isn't.  I don't know of an intersection anywhere that is designed to mandate traffic be on both sides of the intersection, because you could go for several hours at night without another car needing to make an opposing movement.

[hbelkins]

Sometimes it seems like protected left turns are installed at random. You'll go through three or four intersections with permitted/protected (doghouses) or FYA's, then all of a sudden you hit one with a protected left. I've started to figure out that sight distance issues are probably the reason most protected lefts are installed amongst a sequence of doghouses or FYAs.

[Pete from Boston]

I find this to be a pretty minor inconvenience, and that may very well be because it seems to be written in the local DNA here that anyone who can race into the intersection first has the right-of-way to turn left, never mind how close or heavy the oncoming traffic.  That drives me so up a wall that I'll take a few minutes delay in my day to hold these impatient children someplace safe until the rest of us are out of the way.

[spooky]

I find this to be a pretty minor inconvenience, and that may very well be because it seems to be written in the local DNA here that anyone who can race into the intersection first has the right-of-way to turn left, never mind how close or heavy the oncoming traffic.  That drives me so up a wall that I'll take a few minutes delay in my day to hold these impatient children someplace safe until the rest of us are out of the way.

Ah yes, the Massachusetts left. Remember, the right-of-way belongs to whoever more aggressively pursues it.

[kkt]

I'm more bothered by the lack of protected left turn arrows at intersections that need them.  Traffic is so heavy there's no chance to turn left during the green phase, so people wanting to turn run the yellow and collide with oncoming traffic also running the yellow.

[tradephoric]

Part of the problem is duel (and even triple) left turn lanes are becoming more common to combat congestion.  Agencies are extremely hesitant to provide permissive left turns at intersections with dual left turns.  Sure, you get increased capacity at 5PM but at 2AM drivers are needlessly waiting at a protected left turn.

This is understandable especially when there's also a dual turn in the other direction. Sometimes it's hard enough to see around large vehicle in a single permissive turn lane. Dual lanes would just make that worse.

Regarding your very valid point about late nights, I miss the days when some traffic lights around here used to go on flash overnight, especially lights outside strip malls and the like. The street would have a flashing yellow and the shopping area a flashing red.

Not to rub it in, but it's commonplace for signals to flash at night in SE Michigan. There are 15 traffic signals on US24 between I-75 & Telegraph.  Of these 15 signals, 11 of them flash at night.  Many of the signals that go into flash are full blown 4-phase signals with left turn phases.   Even the I-75 off-ramp signals will go into flash at night.

[Bickendan]

I'm more bothered by the lack of protected left turn arrows at intersections that need them.  Traffic is so heavy there's no chance to turn left during the green phase, so people wanting to turn run the yellow and collide with oncoming traffic also running the yellow.

Just happened the other day at SE 26th and Powell (US 26) here in Portland. Car tried to turn left from 26th onto Powell, hit/got hit by a car running the yellow or red going the other way. Made worse that Powell Park's on one corner of the intersection and Cleveland High School's on the opposite corner.

[texaskdog]

This morning I got stuck at the light leaving my neighborhood because I got there just 15 or 20 seconds too late: Traffic coming the other way on my street had gotten a green and if I'm not there before that green comes on, the light makes me wait through the whole light cycle before my side will get a green. I hate that. Waste of time, waste of gas idling, bad for the air to have people idling....if it had been midday with nobody around I might have run the light, but there were too many people on the other street to risk it in case one was an unmarked cop or some such. I wish the detection loop could trigger the green mid-cycle. Doesn't need to be an arrow. The current signal head there is the usual Virginia doghouse (huge improvement from when I moved to my house in 2001 and neither direction had an arrow, just straight green circles both at the same time).

The light by my apartment is red for 1:40.  The cycle rarely has a car going through at 6:20 am.  When DST first kicked in the lights blinked for 2 days, it was SO NICE!!!

[Scott5114]

Norman has the opposite problem. We have a bunch of intersections that go to FYA during peak hours when a protected left would be really handy. So you get one car creep into the intersection, get stuck there while tons of oncoming traffic passes, and then either finally go in the last few seconds of the cycle once the herd passes, or else have to book it out of the intersection when the light turns red and cross traffic gets a green. It's especially maddening because green arrows are present in the signal heads, they just never come on.

[myosh_tino]

Alternative solution is for sensors to automatically trip the signal the moment a car (or bike) hits the sensor during the overnight phases.

That's how it's done, for the most part, in California where the vast majority of left turns are protected.