US 41 in Appleton, Menasha and Neenah, Wisconsin

[hobsini2]

You know, WisDOT is going to end up replacing nearly half the signage on WI 441 anyway as part of the massive expansion/reconstruction project, so it would be an easy opportunity for promotion.

I am of the opinion that all loop/belt freeways should be interstates since they provide an important national function as obvious alternative freeway routes for inter-regional traffic.  And in some metro areas they provide direct interstate access to large suburbs.

WI 441 is a small-scale version of what's wrong with TN 840, CO 470 and a couple of Phoenix's loops, as examples.

This last point may be subjective, but I feel like having a 3di "legitimizes" an interstate route.  Not as if a lack of any makes an interstate less important, but having one really drives home that this is an important corridor; so important that it needs a spur and/or a loop to properly serve the area.

And let's not forget that Appleton is not the only city in the area with traffic that 441 serves as an alternate. If I was coming from Oshkosh on 41, if I wanted to avoid Downtown Neenah and Downtown Menasha to get east on 114 or 10, 441 would be the way to do it.

If nothing else, WI 441 is more of a bypass/alternate for Menasha and Neenah than it is for Appleton, for which it is more of an 'access facilitator' (ditto for the eastern suburbs south of the Fox River).  I use US10/WI 441 a LOT in getting to and from my place in the downtown Appleton area from the southwest.

I have been pushing WisDOT for major US 10 upgrades east of Appleton, including rerouting it to follow County 'CE' east from WI 441 and then towards Forest Junction, for many years now, essentially completing its bypass of Appleton, too.

Mike

And I would also favor that Mike.

[TriCountyExpressway]

You know, WisDOT is going to end up replacing nearly half the signage on WI 441 anyway as part of the massive expansion/reconstruction project, so it would be an easy opportunity for promotion.

I am of the opinion that all loop/belt freeways should be interstates since they provide an important national function as obvious alternative freeway routes for inter-regional traffic.  And in some metro areas they provide direct interstate access to large suburbs.

WI 441 is a small-scale version of what's wrong with TN 840, CO 470 and a couple of Phoenix's loops, as examples.

This last point may be subjective, but I feel like having a 3di "legitimizes" an interstate route.  Not as if a lack of any makes an interstate less important, but having one really drives home that this is an important corridor; so important that it needs a spur and/or a loop to properly serve the area.

And let's not forget that Appleton is not the only city in the area with traffic that 441 serves as an alternate. If I was coming from Oshkosh on 41, if I wanted to avoid Downtown Neenah and Downtown Menasha to get east on 114 or 10, 441 would be the way to do it.

If nothing else, WI 441 is more of a bypass/alternate for Menasha and Neenah than it is for Appleton, for which it is more of an 'access facilitator' (ditto for the eastern suburbs south of the Fox River).  I use US10/WI 441 a LOT in getting to and from my place in the downtown Appleton area from the southwest.

I have been pushing WisDOT for major US 10 upgrades east of Appleton, including rerouting it to follow County 'CE' east from WI 441 and then towards Forest Junction, for many years now, essentially completing its bypass of Appleton, too.

Mike

And I would also favor that Mike.

'CE' dead-ends at County Rd. 'D' in the Town of Holland. I suppose US10 could be re-routed along 'CE' to 'D' and then south on 'D' to the current US10. I would rather see it re-routed along County Rd. 'KK' to WIS57 in Forest Junction, where it would meet up with the current US10. That is the route I typically take when driving from Appleton to Manitowoc.

[mgk920]

You know, WisDOT is going to end up replacing nearly half the signage on WI 441 anyway as part of the massive expansion/reconstruction project, so it would be an easy opportunity for promotion.

I am of the opinion that all loop/belt freeways should be interstates since they provide an important national function as obvious alternative freeway routes for inter-regional traffic.  And in some metro areas they provide direct interstate access to large suburbs.

WI 441 is a small-scale version of what's wrong with TN 840, CO 470 and a couple of Phoenix's loops, as examples.

This last point may be subjective, but I feel like having a 3di "legitimizes" an interstate route.  Not as if a lack of any makes an interstate less important, but having one really drives home that this is an important corridor; so important that it needs a spur and/or a loop to properly serve the area.

And let's not forget that Appleton is not the only city in the area with traffic that 441 serves as an alternate. If I was coming from Oshkosh on 41, if I wanted to avoid Downtown Neenah and Downtown Menasha to get east on 114 or 10, 441 would be the way to do it.

If nothing else, WI 441 is more of a bypass/alternate for Menasha and Neenah than it is for Appleton, for which it is more of an 'access facilitator' (ditto for the eastern suburbs south of the Fox River).  I use US10/WI 441 a LOT in getting to and from my place in the downtown Appleton area from the southwest.

I have been pushing WisDOT for major US 10 upgrades east of Appleton, including rerouting it to follow County 'CE' east from WI 441 and then towards Forest Junction, for many years now, essentially completing its bypass of Appleton, too.

Mike

And I would also favor that Mike.

'CE' dead-ends at County Rd. 'D' in the Town of Holland. I suppose US10 could be re-routed along 'CE' to 'D' and then south on 'D' to the current US10. I would rather see it re-routed along County Rd. 'KK' to WIS57 in Forest Junction, where it would meet up with the current US10. That is the route I typically take when driving from Appleton to Manitowoc.

I'm proposing that US 10 follow a cross-county new ROW southeastward from where County 'CE' curves due eastward SE of Kaukauna, then eastward a bit after crossing into Calumet County, then curving southeastward just east of an interchange with County 'D' to then feed into the N-S part of existing US 10 on the east side of the Forest Junction area.  This as a 'super two' freeway/expressway on an upgradable four-lanes ROW.



Mike

[SEWIGuy]

You know, WisDOT is going to end up replacing nearly half the signage on WI 441 anyway as part of the massive expansion/reconstruction project, so it would be an easy opportunity for promotion.

I am of the opinion that all loop/belt freeways should be interstates since they provide an important national function as obvious alternative freeway routes for inter-regional traffic.  And in some metro areas they provide direct interstate access to large suburbs.

WI 441 is a small-scale version of what's wrong with TN 840, CO 470 and a couple of Phoenix's loops, as examples.

This last point may be subjective, but I feel like having a 3di "legitimizes" an interstate route.  Not as if a lack of any makes an interstate less important, but having one really drives home that this is an important corridor; so important that it needs a spur and/or a loop to properly serve the area.

And let's not forget that Appleton is not the only city in the area with traffic that 441 serves as an alternate. If I was coming from Oshkosh on 41, if I wanted to avoid Downtown Neenah and Downtown Menasha to get east on 114 or 10, 441 would be the way to do it.

If nothing else, WI 441 is more of a bypass/alternate for Menasha and Neenah than it is for Appleton, for which it is more of an 'access facilitator' (ditto for the eastern suburbs south of the Fox River).  I use US10/WI 441 a LOT in getting to and from my place in the downtown Appleton area from the southwest.

I have been pushing WisDOT for major US 10 upgrades east of Appleton, including rerouting it to follow County 'CE' east from WI 441 and then towards Forest Junction, for many years now, essentially completing its bypass of Appleton, too.

Mike

And I would also favor that Mike.

'CE' dead-ends at County Rd. 'D' in the Town of Holland. I suppose US10 could be re-routed along 'CE' to 'D' and then south on 'D' to the current US10. I would rather see it re-routed along County Rd. 'KK' to WIS57 in Forest Junction, where it would meet up with the current US10. That is the route I typically take when driving from Appleton to Manitowoc.

I'm proposing that US 10 follow a cross-county new ROW southeastward from where County 'CE' curves due eastward SE of Kaukauna, then eastward a bit after crossing into Calumet County, then curving southeastward just east of an interchange with County 'D' to then feed into the N-S part of existing US 10 on the east side of the Forest Junction area.  This as a 'super two' freeway/expressway on an upgradable four-lanes ROW.



Mike

But how much of US-10's traffic is through traffic?  (ie, coming to Appleton from the west and continuing on to Brillion or Manitowoc, and vice versa?)  In looking at the traffic count maps, it looks like most of the traffic on CE, and on the US-10 south of WI-441, is local. 

[mgk920]

'CE' dead-ends at County Rd. 'D' in the Town of Holland. I suppose US10 could be re-routed along 'CE' to 'D' and then south on 'D' to the current US10. I would rather see it re-routed along County Rd. 'KK' to WIS57 in Forest Junction, where it would meet up with the current US10. That is the route I typically take when driving from Appleton to Manitowoc.

I'm proposing that US 10 follow a cross-county new ROW southeastward from where County 'CE' curves due eastward SE of Kaukauna, then eastward a bit after crossing into Calumet County, then curving southeastward just east of an interchange with County 'D' to then feed into the N-S part of existing US 10 on the east side of the Forest Junction area.  This as a 'super two' freeway/expressway on an upgradable four-lanes ROW.



Mike

But how much of US-10's traffic is through traffic?  (ie, coming to Appleton from the west and continuing on to Brillion or Manitowoc, and vice versa?)  In looking at the traffic count maps, it looks like most of the traffic on CE, and on the US-10 south of WI-441, is local.

IMHO, the biggest interest here is in getting US 10 *OFF* of its current routing east of Appleton, which is very convoluted and increasingly congested, and onto a better, more direct and less congested routing.  Yes, most of the traffic is local and this local area is fast developing.  The current US 10 routing is quickly transitioning from a speedy access into the metro area and into part of a network of major urban/suburban arterials.

Mike

[hobsini2]

Traffic count maps are one thing. It's another if you are using it on a regular basis. I have been on US 10 between Appleton and Manitowoc several times in the last couple years. It is a very busy road for the current capacity especially in the summer.

[mgk920]

Traffic count maps are one thing. It's another if you are using it on a regular basis. I have been on US 10 between Appleton and Manitowoc several times in the last couple years. It is a very busy road for the current capacity especially in the summer.

Yea, I look upon that part of US 10 in the exact same way that I do WI 23 between FdL and Sheboygan.

Mike

[Roadguy]

Yea, I look upon that part of US 10 in the exact same way that I do WI 23 between FdL and Sheboygan.

Mike

This section will be treated similar to WI 21 west of Omro with passing lanes constructed at certain intervals to allow for passing.  There is a project scheduled to add these but I am unsure what year it will be done.

[Fox 11 News]

The closed ramps at College Ave & I41 in Grand Chute reopened last night - about a day ahead of what DOT had announced.

[mgk920]

The closed ramps at College Ave & I41 in Grand Chute reopened last night - about a day ahead of what DOT had announced.

For those in here who are unaware, when newsguys say 'Grand Chute', think 'unincorporated township area that would be Appleton's west side if Wisconsin had a better municipal boundary law'.

Mike

[triplemultiplex]

^^
Most populous unincorporated township in the state, if I'm not mistaken.

[mgk920]

^^
Most populous unincorporated township in the state, if I'm not mistaken.

I believe that you are correct.

Mike

[Fox 11 News]

The closed ramps at College Ave & I41 in Grand Chute reopened last night - about a day ahead of what DOT had announced.

For those in here who are unaware, when newsguys say 'Grand Chute', think 'unincorporated township area that would be Appleton's west side if Wisconsin had a better municipal boundary law'.

Mike

Or would be Appleton's west side, if, when Fox River Mall was built, the city had embraced the project and tried to/agreed to annex the land then instead of fighting it tooth & nail.

[SEWIGuy]

^^
Most populous unincorporated township in the state, if I'm not mistaken.

According to the 2010 Census, it had a population of 20,919.

The only other unincorporated towns with population >10,000 are Harrison in Calumet County and Lisbon in Waukesha County.  And both of those are just over 10,000.

[mgk920]

^^
Most populous unincorporated township in the state, if I'm not mistaken.

According to the 2010 Census, it had a population of 20,919.

The only other unincorporated towns with population >10,000 are Harrison in Calumet County and Lisbon in Waukesha County.  And both of those are just over 10,000.

Menasha Twp. (Winnebago County) should be in the 18K range and most of Harrison is now a highly contentious incorporated village.  Menasha (City), Kaukauna and Sherwood are bitterly fighting their attempt to merge the remaining township into that new village by 'gaming' a state law that was intended to make it easier to settle borders between existing central cities and surrounding townships.

The closed ramps at College Ave & I41 in Grand Chute reopened last night - about a day ahead of what DOT had announced.

For those in here who are unaware, when newsguys say 'Grand Chute', think 'unincorporated township area that would be Appleton's west side if Wisconsin had a better municipal boundary law'.

Mike

Or would be Appleton's west side, if, when Fox River Mall was built, the city had embraced the project and tried to/agreed to annex the land then instead of fighting it tooth & nail.

Long before then - the township had its own sewer and water service (buying water from the city) in that area at least a decade before the mall was announced.  The city was essentially powerless to do anything about that by then.  Remember, too, that at that time, the township was very bitter over the city having just annexed a bunch of land along College Ave out to and including the Taco Bell (the current city limits) and there was a court battle under way over an attempt by the City to annex farther out along the north side of College Ave to include what is now the plaza with HuHot, Cherry Berry and so forth (then the Elm Tree Bakery).

A failed attempt to incorporate that part of the township into a village happened about then, too.

OTOH, had the City Council agreed to annex the Legion hall when they petitioned it back in *1957*, when they were the only business on that whole part of the then newly opened College Ave (WI 125)....   The Aldermen saw the writing on the wall back then but read it wrong, thinking that not annexing the land would prevent the area from growing in that direction, as was an effective planning tool until about that time under Wisconsin law.  The City was straining under the weight of its explosive growth and development at the height of the post-WWII Baby Boom at that time.

That said, IMHO, the best thing that could happen to the metro area would be for it to be reorganized as one city under a neutral name, one mayor, one city council, one bureaucracy, etc - and even then, it would be less populous than two of the state's existing cities.

Mike

[Molandfreak]

That said, IMHO, the best thing that could happen to the metro area would be for it to be reorganized as one city under a neutral name, one mayor, one city council, one bureaucracy, etc - and even then, it would be less populous than two of the state's existing cities.

Applenashakauna? Or just Appleton, with 180,000 people?

[mgk920]

That said, IMHO, the best thing that could happen to the metro area would be for it to be reorganized as one city under a neutral name, one mayor, one city council, one bureaucracy, etc - and even then, it would be less populous than two of the state's existing cities.

Applenashakauna? Or just Appleton, with 180,000 people?

Something like 'City of Fox Valley'.  It would be about 230K.  The existing City of Appleton would control about a third of the resulting city's city council.

Mike

[hobsini2]

The closed ramps at College Ave & I41 in Grand Chute reopened last night - about a day ahead of what DOT had announced.

Good to know since I have to take my Uncle to Outagamie Co Airport next weekend.

[hobsini2]

That said, IMHO, the best thing that could happen to the metro area would be for it to be reorganized as one city under a neutral name, one mayor, one city council, one bureaucracy, etc - and even then, it would be less populous than two of the state's existing cities.

Applenashakauna? Or just Appleton, with 180,000 people?

Something like 'City of Fox Valley'.  It would be about 230K.  The existing City of Appleton would control about a third of the resulting city's city council.

Mike

I like the idea of a conglomerate but not one for the whole metro. Here's what I would do. Appleton can absorb Greenville, Grand Chute, Mackville and Harrison. Neenah and Menasha becomes one. Kimberly, Combined Locks, and Little Chute become one. And Kaukauna on it's own. There. I made 11 cities and towns into 4 cities.

[TriCountyExpressway]

The closed ramps at College Ave & I41 in Grand Chute reopened last night - about a day ahead of what DOT had announced.

Speaking of the College Ave./I-41 interchange, a few months ago, a reflective yellow border was applied to the backplates of the traffic lights at that intersection, as well as a couple of others along College Ave. in Grand Chute. Today, I was driving through Neenah on Commercial St./WIS-114 and noticed that that same reflective border was being applied to lights at the Main St. intersection as well. I am wondering, is this a WISDOT directive for state/US highways that run on surface streets? I have never seen this in Wisconsin, except for those two places I mentioned.

It looks like the FHWA did a study on these reflective backplates in South Carolina. http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/resources/casestudies/fhwasa09011/

[mgk920]

That said, IMHO, the best thing that could happen to the metro area would be for it to be reorganized as one city under a neutral name, one mayor, one city council, one bureaucracy, etc - and even then, it would be less populous than two of the state's existing cities.

Applenashakauna? Or just Appleton, with 180,000 people?

Something like 'City of Fox Valley'.  It would be about 230K.  The existing City of Appleton would control about a third of the resulting city's city council.

Mike

I like the idea of a conglomerate but not one for the whole metro. Here's what I would do. Appleton can absorb Greenville, Grand Chute, Mackville and Harrison. Neenah and Menasha becomes one. Kimberly, Combined Locks, and Little Chute become one. And Kaukauna on it's own. There. I made 11 cities and towns into 4 cities.

Combined Locks, Kimberly and Little Chute already share the same police agency, called 'Fox Valley Metro Police' and when the police merger discussions were under way in the 1990s, Kaukauna was invited to join in, but declined.  Combined Locks originally declined, but joined FVM sometime during the '00s.

Menasha and Neenah (Cities) merged their fire departments about 20 years ago, too, and it has been working out well beyond expectations.  The Neenah-Menasha Fire Department also has a joint first response pact with Appleton - about as close as two departments can get to each other without formally merging - where the station closest to the fire goes first, regardless of which of the three munis the fire is in.  IIRC, Appleton also has such a pact with Grand Chute Township.

Appleton and Grand Chute Township seriously studied merging their police departments a few years ago, but, fearing a 'loss of identity' (a *VERY* shallow reason, IMHO), the township backed out late in the proceedings.

If I had to reduce the metro to no less than three munis, I would do these three:

- Menasha (City), Menasha (Township south of US 10 west of Little Lake Butte des Morts and excluding the Palisades and east Valley Fair areas east of Little Lake Butte des Morts), Neenah (City), Neenah (Township), Harrison Township (areas in the Menasha boundary agreement area plus the Waverly Beach area);

- Appleton, Grand Chute Township, Greenville Township, Center Township (Mackville area), Menasha (Township areas excluded above), Buchanon Township (areas west of WI 441), Harrison Township (areas in the Appleton boundary agreement area);

- Combined Locks, Kimberly, Little Chute, Kaukauna (City), Kaukauna (Township), Harrison (excluding the areas described above), Sherwood, Buchanon Township (areas between WI 441 and Kaukauna), Vandenbroek Township.   The heavily developed northern part of this area is often locally referred to as 'The Heart of the Valley'.

My 'City of Fox Valley' would include all of the areas described above minus Kaukauna (Township) but including Clayton Township (Winnebago County) and the Winchester area.

Mike

[hobsini2]

  I could go for that too. But either way, it can be done into a couple of cities.

[DaBigE]

Menasha and Neenah (Cities) merged their fire departments about 20 years ago, too, and it has been working out well beyond expectations.

Growing up, my dad always referred to it as Neenah/Menasha, so I naïvely thought it was one municipality with an "odd" name. 

[hobsini2]

Menasha and Neenah (Cities) merged their fire departments about 20 years ago, too, and it has been working out well beyond expectations.

Growing up, my dad always referred to it as Neenah/Menasha, so I naïvely thought it was one municipality with an "odd" name. 

I wouldn't be surprised if someday they do merge to become Neenah-Menasha just like Wilkes-Barre and Winston-Salem.

[SEWIGuy]

I think the State of Wisconsin could encourage a lot more consolidation with its governmental entities.  School districts included.