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Underutilized toll roads

Started by Pink Jazz, July 19, 2015, 06:06:53 PM

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Kacie Jane

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 20, 2015, 02:31:01 PMYou will almost never see traffic jams on the AC Expressway during rush hour, but don't associate that with being underutilized!

I would think that's the definition of being underutilized, especially by New Jersey standards.


JREwing78

Quote from: US 41 on July 20, 2015, 09:05:41 AM
As far as American toll roads go I would say that the Indiana Toll Road is probably underutilized. The state of Indiana was losing money on it and the company that runs it now, declared bankruptcy a few months ago.

You're probably right - in 2011, traffic counts were 20,000 vehicles per day at the east end, 36,000 vehicles per day at the west end, albeit with considerable swelling in traffic counts on weekends. It's probably up a bit now, but east of Valparaiso the Toll Road generally has light to moderate traffic levels.

The Toll Road is certainly suffering from underinvestment, at least on the stretch between I-65 and Valparaiso. The massive toll plazas would move far more vehicles if converted to an open road tolling system. The one in Portage, in particular, can have long backups on weekends and holidays.

noelbotevera

I can think of another underutilized toll road in Virginia: the Dulles Greenway/Tollway. You can shunpike up to VA 28 rather than using the main lanes. Combined with higher tolls, Virginia's DOT AADT 2012 in Loudoun County only shows VA 267 (pages 12 and 13) getting only 81,000 AADT as the highest east of Sully Road to the Fairfax County Line. The lowest was 14,000 AADT west of Old Ox Road, and gradually increased to 22,000 by Loudoun County Pkwy.

For Fairfax County, this one is a little more outdated, because it is 2010.
VA 267 (pages 34-37) only maxes out in 125,000 AADT, much less than you could see in Washington, DC's metro. This stretch lasts between International Drive and I-66 (though at I-495, traffic thins out at 66,000 AADT). This AADT count saw a decrease from 140,000 AADT. Between the Fairfax County line and Leesburg Pike, there really isn't too much traffic, despite being a good connector for Dulles Airport traffic to I-495 or US 29 (via I-66).
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cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on July 20, 2015, 02:47:27 PM
Quote from: HenryI like to think that I-895 in Baltimore has been underutilized since the Fort McHenry Tunnel opened 30 years ago.

It's not.  The I-895 Baltimore Harbor Tunnel averages about 71K vehicles a day.  That's 65% more than the Chicago Skyway in your neck of the woods...

Agreed.  And I-895 does suffer from peak-period congestion in spite of the presence of I-95.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the reconstruction of the Canton Viaduct starts (planned for next year), and only leaves three travel lanes open (2 in the peak direction, 1 in non-peak).

Regarding underutilized, the one that is somewhat underutilized is Md. 695 (signed as I-695) much of which is MdTA [toll] maintained as the approaches to the Francis Scott Key Bridge over the outer Patapsco River (the planning name was Outer Harbor Crossing), including the bridge itself. 

2013 AADT was between 29,000 and 30,000, pretty  low for a four-lane freeway (in Maryland).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: noelbotevera on July 21, 2015, 07:46:03 AM
I can think of another underutilized toll road in Virginia: the Dulles Greenway/Tollway. You can shunpike up to VA 28 rather than using the main lanes. Combined with higher tolls, Virginia's DOT AADT 2012 in Loudoun County only shows VA 267 (pages 12 and 13) getting only 81,000 AADT as the highest east of Sully Road to the Fairfax County Line. The lowest was 14,000 AADT west of Old Ox Road, and gradually increased to 22,000 by Loudoun County Pkwy.

For Fairfax County, this one is a little more outdated, because it is 2010.
VA 267 (pages 34-37) only maxes out in 125,000 AADT, much less than you could see in Washington, DC's metro. This stretch lasts between International Drive and I-66 (though at I-495, traffic thins out at 66,000 AADT). This AADT count saw a decrease from 140,000 AADT. Between the Fairfax County line and Leesburg Pike, there really isn't too much traffic, despite being a good connector for Dulles Airport traffic to I-495 or US 29 (via I-66).

Relatively steep increases in tolls on the Dulles Toll Road part of Va. 267 (to fund most of the cost of a Metrorail line to Dulles Airport) probably account for at least some of the decline in traffic on the Toll Road. 

The Greenway part of Va. 267 is owned by a private concession, and has even steeper tolls, and does not provide a break for those drivers not going the entire distance from Va. 28 to U.S. 15/Va. 7.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Kacie Jane on July 20, 2015, 03:13:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 20, 2015, 02:31:01 PMYou will almost never see traffic jams on the AC Expressway during rush hour, but don't associate that with being underutilized!

I would think that's the definition of being underutilized, especially by New Jersey standards.

Looking at traffic counts measured in November, 2013 a few miles east of Rt. 42, it appears the Expressway has an amazingly even distribution of traffic.  In total, about 68,000 travel the road per day in this 2 lanes per direction stretch of highway.  During the AM rush hour, just a few hundred cars separated the flow going West (towards Philly) vs. going East (towards AC).  During the PM rush hour, the numbers were even closer! http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/refdata/roadway/traffic_counts/TMS2Go/reports/9-4-313%20on%2008-20-2013-10_21_2013.pdf

SteveG1988

The Betsy Ross Bridge compared to the Tacony Palmyra Bridge. Barely any connections on the PA side did this one in, as did the failure to build the PA90 expressway.

(Betsy Ross) 5.00 Toll
Average daily traffic (as of 2005)
36,400

(Tacony Palmyra) 2.00 toll
Average daily traffic (as of 2005)
44,628
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

jeffandnicole

Quote from: SteveG1988 on July 21, 2015, 11:32:13 AM
The Betsy Ross Bridge compared to the Tacony Palmyra Bridge. Barely any connections on the PA side did this one in, as did the failure to build the PA90 expressway.

(Betsy Ross) 5.00 Toll
Average daily traffic (as of 2005)
36,400

(Tacony Palmyra) 2.00 toll
Average daily traffic (as of 2005)
44,628

And to add: The Betsy Ross Bridge was 8 lanes wide, but reduced to 6 lanes due to the low usage in order to provide shoulders.  The Tacony Palmyra was reduced from 4 lanes to 3 many years ago, but they were very narrow lanes that resulted in a number of sideswipes.

The ADT figures are even more impressive when you figure the Tacony loses crossing time due to drawbridge openings...sometimes several times a day.

ekt8750

I take the Tacony all the time. That $3 difference adds up over time esp when you're a daily commuter.

bzakharin

Quote from: SteveG1988 on July 21, 2015, 11:32:13 AM
The Betsy Ross Bridge compared to the Tacony Palmyra Bridge. Barely any connections on the PA side did this one in, as did the failure to build the PA90 expressway.
That's an odd assertion to make given that access to I-95 is a lot more straightforward from the Betsy Ross bridge than from Tacony-Palmyra which makes the latter only better for local traffic (between exits 27 and 30 on I-95, southeast of Roosevelt Blvd.). I would think the low figures are due to the higher toll.

Bickendan

Do the Orange County roads (CA 73, 133, 241, 261) still count?

noelbotevera

I will add on to my previous post and say the PA Turnpike is underutilized. This ADT report from 2012

https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/Reports-Main/2012%20Reports/2012_INTERCHANGE_AADT_Report.pdf

shows that the highest was Bensalem at around 33,000 AADT. In 2014, there must be a significant decrease in traffic due to Act 89.

Note: i think I got the wrong PDF, but this was the only one I could find.
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froggie

QuoteThat's an odd assertion to make given that access to I-95 is a lot more straightforward from the Betsy Ross bridge than from Tacony-Palmyra which makes the latter only better for local traffic (between exits 27 and 30 on I-95, southeast of Roosevelt Blvd.). I would think the low figures are due to the higher toll.

I would agree.  The Betsy Ross Bridge has much better network connections than the Tacony-Palmyra.  It's pretty clear that the higher toll is what dissuades traffic, though knowing the origins/destinations of Tacony-Palmyra traffic would help cement that assertion.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Bickendan on July 21, 2015, 01:18:10 PM
Do the Orange County roads (CA 73, 133, 241, 261) still count?

AADTs on Ca. 73 are ranging in the 60,000's for the tolled part.

AADTs on Ca. 241 range from 6,600 at the south end to 48,000 at the north end approaching Ca. 91.

Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

SteveG1988

Quote from: froggie on July 21, 2015, 01:29:10 PM
QuoteThat's an odd assertion to make given that access to I-95 is a lot more straightforward from the Betsy Ross bridge than from Tacony-Palmyra which makes the latter only better for local traffic (between exits 27 and 30 on I-95, southeast of Roosevelt Blvd.). I would think the low figures are due to the higher toll.

I would agree.  The Betsy Ross Bridge has much better network connections than the Tacony-Palmyra.  It's pretty clear that the higher toll is what dissuades traffic, though knowing the origins/destinations of Tacony-Palmyra traffic would help cement that assertion.

What i meant was that unless your destination is on richmond street, or along i-95 it does not make sense to pay the extra toll. Tacony is a better local bridge, and people would rather pay 3 dollars less to do the same crossing.
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

ET21

Going off the OP for E-470, I think they planned for the eventual outward expansion of the residential growth. Unfortunately, that doesn't bode well right now in the short term for $$$. I'm curious as to why they didn't make it a complete loop connecting the Northwest Parkway to the western 470 terminus at I-70
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Clinched:
IL: I-88, I-180, I-190, I-290, I-294, I-355, IL-390
IN: I-80, I-94
SD: I-190
WI: I-90
MI: I-94, I-196
MN: I-90

-NCX75-

I don't know for sure but Houston's Fort Bend Toll Road and the tollways in Austin seem to always have light traffic.

thenetwork

Quote from: ET21 on July 21, 2015, 01:45:18 PM
Going off the OP for E-470, I think they planned for the eventual outward expansion of the residential growth. Unfortunately, that doesn't bode well right now in the short term for $$$. I'm curious as to why they didn't make it a complete loop connecting the Northwest Parkway to the western 470 terminus at I-70

One word:  NIMBYs!!! 

On a related note, Boulder residents for years have complained about US-36 (The Boulder Turnpike) not having enough lanes getting them to & from Denver.  Now that there are newly constructed HOT lanes (which BTW, begin collecting tolls tomorrow 7/22) they are going to complain about the high cost of the tolls during rush hour (up to $7.20 one-way).  It will be interesting to see how much those lanes will be used with the high pricing. 

The one wrinkle is that even though car pools of 2+ people (scheduled to change to 3+ in a year or two) and motorcycles will pay no toll, they still have to buy a transponder which can switch from carpool to single occupant/toll)

ekt8750

Quote from: froggie on July 21, 2015, 01:29:10 PM
QuoteThat's an odd assertion to make given that access to I-95 is a lot more straightforward from the Betsy Ross bridge than from Tacony-Palmyra which makes the latter only better for local traffic (between exits 27 and 30 on I-95, southeast of Roosevelt Blvd.). I would think the low figures are due to the higher toll.

I would agree.  The Betsy Ross Bridge has much better network connections than the Tacony-Palmyra.  It's pretty clear that the higher toll is what dissuades traffic, though knowing the origins/destinations of Tacony-Palmyra traffic would help cement that assertion.

Well they're coming from the same location, the heart of South Jersey, the Marlton/Mt Laurel area for the most part. From what I've seen, people go in all directions coming off the bridge so it has to be more of a matter of avoiding tolls than anything else. You can easily access the Aramingo Shopping Area from either bridge and while the Betsy provides direct ramps to 95 in both directions, it's not like you have to jump through a ton of hoops to get to 95 from the Tacony. The SB ramp is only 3/4 miles down State Rd and the NB is just around the corner from the foot of the bridge. Also when you're a regular driver, those $3 add up pretty quickly esp if you're an EZPass holder and the Burlington Bridge Commission offers a discount and the DRPA gives you squat (I know that's about to change).

briantroutman

Quote from: noelbotevera on July 21, 2015, 01:28:26 PM
I will add on to my previous post and say the PA Turnpike is underutilized. This ADT report from 2012

https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/Reports-Main/2012%20Reports/2012_INTERCHANGE_AADT_Report.pdf

shows that the highest was Bensalem at around 33,000 AADT. In 2014, there must be a significant decrease in traffic due to Act 89.

Note: i think I got the wrong PDF, but this was the only one I could find.


Hi Noel- You're misunderstanding that report. Those numbers refer to vehicles exiting and entering at those interchanges–not the number of vehicles on the Turnpike at that point. And even then, the 33,000 number that you cited for Bensalem is just the number of people entering at that interchange–not exiting. Combined, the Bensalem interchange alone handles an average of 62,000 vehicles per day.

At its busiest point (between I-476 and PA 309), the PA Turnpike averages almost 117,000 vehicles per day, and nowhere on the mainline does the number drop below about 22K, which is comparable to I-80 in similar parts of the state.

No, I don't think you can say that the mainline of the Turnpike is underutilized.

There are a few parts of the extended systems that are candidates, though. The Mon-Fayette (PA 43) was mentioned–with AADT numbers that drop below 5,000 in places. Turnpike 66 isn't as dead as 43, but I think its traffic counts haven't lived up to expectations. Also in southwestern PA–576 sees very little traffic, although in fairness, only a short segment is open. And on the other end of the state: the Northeast Extension north of Wilkes-Barre is a ghost road.

By the way–if you haven't already found them, PennDOT has traffic volume maps for the whole state (including the Turnpike) here: http://www.dot.state.pa.us/Internet/Bureaus/pdPlanRes.nsf/infoBPRTrafficInfoTrafficVolumeMap?openform

Duke87

Quote from: thenetwork on July 21, 2015, 02:49:13 PM
Quote from: ET21 on July 21, 2015, 01:45:18 PM
Going off the OP for E-470, I think they planned for the eventual outward expansion of the residential growth. Unfortunately, that doesn't bode well right now in the short term for $$$. I'm curious as to why they didn't make it a complete loop connecting the Northwest Parkway to the western 470 terminus at I-70
One word:  NIMBYs!!! 

Yep. The loop was planned to be finished but the remaining portion of it would have passed through Golden, a place that doesn't believe in building infrastructure that only accommodates motorized traffic and today is the epicenter of hipsterdom in the area. The western bypass of Golden that carries US 6 and CO 93 was built on the right of way planned for Northwest Parkway, but as a 2-4 lane undivided expressway rather than a freeway.
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1995hoo

Quote from: noelbotevera on July 21, 2015, 07:46:03 AM
I can think of another underutilized toll road in Virginia: the Dulles Greenway/Tollway. You can shunpike up to VA 28 rather than using the main lanes. Combined with higher tolls, Virginia's DOT AADT 2012 in Loudoun County only shows VA 267 (pages 12 and 13) getting only 81,000 AADT as the highest east of Sully Road to the Fairfax County Line. The lowest was 14,000 AADT west of Old Ox Road, and gradually increased to 22,000 by Loudoun County Pkwy.

For Fairfax County, this one is a little more outdated, because it is 2010.
VA 267 (pages 34-37) only maxes out in 125,000 AADT, much less than you could see in Washington, DC's metro. This stretch lasts between International Drive and I-66 (though at I-495, traffic thins out at 66,000 AADT). This AADT count saw a decrease from 140,000 AADT. Between the Fairfax County line and Leesburg Pike, there really isn't too much traffic, despite being a good connector for Dulles Airport traffic to I-495 or US 29 (via I-66).


Traffic going to or from Dulles Airport doesn't generally use the Dulles Toll Road except to connect into the toll-free Dulles Access Road. The only exceptions are people who are going to or from the Spring Hill Road interchange (accessible only via the Toll Road and requires payment of a toll on all four ramps) or people who are just plain confused by the two parallel roads.

There's also no toll between I-495 and I-66. Part of what skews traffic counts on that segment is the peak-direction HOV-2 restriction on I-66. Since the Dulles Access Road Extension (sometimes called "the Connector Road" by radio traffic reporters) only goes to and from I-66 unless you're driving a bus with access to the West Falls Church Metro stop, there are about six hours a day where peak-direction traffic (to DC in the morning, from DC in the afternoon) is a lot less than you might expect, due to the HOV restriction–when HOV is in effect on I-66, it de facto applies on the Dulles Access Road Extension between I-66 and Route 123 (or vice versa) because there are no other exits.
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tidecat

I remember when a coworker and I were doing an audit in Ohio County, Kentucky, and we decided to go to Owensboro for dinner.  At that time the Natcher Parkway was still a toll road, so after we got on at Beaver Dam and paid the toll, he was able to go 100 mph pretty much all the way in - there was literally not another car on the road.  That's not the case now that the tolls are gone.

theline

Quote from: JREwing78 on July 20, 2015, 08:55:23 PM
Quote from: US 41 on July 20, 2015, 09:05:41 AM
As far as American toll roads go I would say that the Indiana Toll Road is probably underutilized. The state of Indiana was losing money on it and the company that runs it now, declared bankruptcy a few months ago.

You're probably right - in 2011, traffic counts were 20,000 vehicles per day at the east end, 36,000 vehicles per day at the west end, albeit with considerable swelling in traffic counts on weekends. It's probably up a bit now, but east of Valparaiso the Toll Road generally has light to moderate traffic levels.

The Toll Road is certainly suffering from underinvestment, at least on the stretch between I-65 and Valparaiso. The massive toll plazas would move far more vehicles if converted to an open road tolling system. The one in Portage, in particular, can have long backups on weekends and holidays.
I agree that ORT would be a plus. A positive sign of the new leasee's commitment to the road is a recently-announced plan to rebuild the service plazas. They cited that the current buildings are from the '50s. (I'm not sure they go back quite that far.) I know that they have been renovated over the years, but they sorely need replacement.

Brandon

Quote from: froggie on July 20, 2015, 02:47:27 PM
Quote from: HenryI like to think that I-895 in Baltimore has been underutilized since the Fort McHenry Tunnel opened 30 years ago.

It's not.  The I-895 Baltimore Harbor Tunnel averages about 71K vehicles a day.  That's 65% more than the Chicago Skyway in your neck of the woods...

Now there's an underutilized toll road!  The Skyway lost money for decades as it was built about the same time and just after the Calumet, Kingery, and Borman Expressways (which are all non-toll).  Most Chicago-bound traffic there uses the Borman, Kingery, Calumet, and Ryan Expressways (I-94) instead of the Indiana Toll Road and Chicago Skyway (I-90).  The 2012 CMAP AADT on Northeastern Illinois Expressways atlas tells the story of I-94 versus I-90.

The Kingery/Borman carries about 92,000 vehicles a day at the state line with about 64,000 vehicles going north on the Bishop Ford (nee Calumet).  30,000 to 36,000 vehicles use the I-94 ramps through the interchange between the two.  At the Skyway interchange, about 122,000 vehicles go south on the Ryan as opposed to a mere 22,000 on the Skyway.  In other words, the Skyway is only carrying 18% of the traffic off the Ryan at that point.  By the time you're at the Kingery/Borman, I-94 is carrying about 10,000 to 14,000 more vehicles per day than the Skyway does at the Ryan.
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