New York City's Broadway being downgraded from through street to local street

[roadman65]

I was noticing that at the intersection of Broadway and E 23rd Street in NYC, that a sign is erected telling SB Broadway traffic to turn left on 23rd Street and a "Local Streets" sign is erected with it with an up arrow on straight through Broadway.  In addition I see that Broadway was narrowed by adding a bikeway on the east side of the pavement.

In addition the intersection of Broadway and E 17th Street where through Broadway Traffic used to be directed left (east) around Union Square to its continuing alignment south of Union Square, now is prohibited to turn left and is defaulted on to Union Square West.

Now I am aware of Broadway being closed through Times Square to make it a pedestrian mall as part of the Times Square rennovation, but being away from New York for over two decades and living in Orlando, I do not hear the things going on in the big city.  So when things change its only when I visit NY in person or virtually I learn all these things.   Am I to assume that NYC wants one less arterial street between the change in both Times Square and between 5th Avenue and Union Square?  It seems so backwards as NYC should be making more lanes of traffic rather than reduce them.

[Pete from Boston]

Not really new.  This has been in progress for most of the past decade.

[dgolub]

Not surprising.  Broadway south of Columbus Circle isn't really a good through street.  The northern part up in my neighborhood is fine for through traffic, though.

[roadman65]

Not really new.  This has been in progress for most of the past decade.

Forgive me (really) but I have not payed much attention to New York in quite a long while, so its news to me.  I have been away since 1990 and if that was done in 1991, I would not know it as I have only been to NYC a few times since, with none of my travels on Broadway except in 2003 where I drove Broadway south of Union Square on a Saturday with too much traffic on it that I immediately got frustrated.

Years ago Broadway from Union Square to Canal Street Downtown was traffic free on weekends as my dad used to zip down Broadway from Park Avenue and onto Canal bound for NJ via the Holland Tunnel.  I was amazed at just how many people now come out and drive on weekends back 12 years ago from what was once in the mid 1980's and earlier.

[iBallasticwolf2]

Not surprising.  Broadway south of Columbus Circle isn't really a good through street.  The northern part up in my neighborhood is fine for through traffic, though.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@40.761255,-73.984231,3a,90y,207.41h,79.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1se91vCVDE_Fmt5BXSHr8X7g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3De91vCVDE_Fmt5BXSHr8X7g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D100%26h%3D80%26yaw%3D218.68021%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656
Just from this one image I can tell what your saying is very true.

[roadman65]

Not surprising.  Broadway south of Columbus Circle isn't really a good through street.  The northern part up in my neighborhood is fine for through traffic, though.

Oh Times Square always sucked being diverted onto 7th Avenue as Broadway south of 7th collected all of 7th Avenue traffic causing you to do a shoot over at 42nd Street later.  Then if I remember correctly, Broadway also defaulted onto 5th Avenue at Worth Square where you had to use 14th Street east to rejoin it.  Now they signalized Broadway crossing 5th, according to GSV and Googlemaps.

[02 Park Ave]

I had heard that the mayor of New York was complaining about traffic congestion.  These changes to Broadway certainly will not help the situation.

[noelbotevera]

The reason why Broadway is not a great through traffic connector south of Central Park is due to closures through Times Square and Herald Square. The only point where Broadway is open is between 36th - 41st Streets, and closed between 32nd -35th Streets, and 42nd to 47th or 48th Street. 7th, 8th Avenue or West Side Highway (screw whatever people say, NY 9A will always be the West Side Highway to me!) are some through routes. Heck, throw in FDR Drive (these are roads my dad used in the 90s, sometime around 1990-1991).

[froggie]

Broadway being a skewed alignment does tend to muck a grid-based system up a bit.  Also, regarding a comment roadman made earlier...if we're talking about what Manhattan needs more of given the traffic levels, it's SIDEWALK WIDTH, not traffic lanes.

[roadman65]

Broadway being a skewed alignment does tend to muck a grid-based system up a bit.  Also, regarding a comment roadman made earlier...if we're talking about what Manhattan needs more of given the traffic levels, it's SIDEWALK WIDTH, not traffic lanes.

I am for that if Manhattan needs that.  Now I am not saying Manhattan does not, I just was curious being away from the rat race 20 plus years what is going on in NYC that is warranting downgrades.  I only stated that traffic SEEMS to be getting (or have gotten worse), however with that being said speculation based on observations from one out of the loop does not see everything.  I basically just wanted to know what else is going on there, as I do not think that NYCDOT would purposely consolidate streets if they did not have a good reason.

[roadman65]

The reason why Broadway is not a great through traffic connector south of Central Park is due to closures through Times Square and Herald Square. The only point where Broadway is open is between 36th - 41st Streets, and closed between 32nd -35th Streets, and 42nd to 47th or 48th Street. 7th, 8th Avenue or West Side Highway (screw whatever people say, NY 9A will always be the West Side Highway to me!) are some through routes. Heck, throw in FDR Drive (these are roads my dad used in the 90s, sometime around 1990-1991).

Exactly my point.  Why is NYCDOT doing this?  Of course you break up a street and discontinue it this is bound to happen.

[NE2]

It's a through street if you take the 2 or 3. Of course the 1 is local.

[Duke87]

Looking at it as a "downgrade" is a failure to appreciate the whole picture. In Manhattan, most people do not get around by car. There are far more pedestrians than private automobiles and the changes to Broadway have made it more useful to the former. Nowhere is this more apparent than in Times Square, where now rather than the hordes of people being squeezed onto sidewalks that cannot fit them all, they are free to walk everywhere in the street. Still a very crowded place, but it is easier (and safer) to be a pedestrian there now than it was before the changes.

Consider as well the whole Braess' Paradox aspect of traffic. Adding roads does not necessarily improve system efficiency and removing them does not necessarily reduce it - indeed, both can in some cases do the opposite. Everywhere Broadway is open to cars and crosses an avenue, it results in a more complicated intersection which necessitates more signal phases and gives everyone a smaller share of the time. Everywhere it crosses a street, it results in another signal stopping crosstown traffic that can't be well coordinated since these things are always timed to favor north-south traffic. It is entirely reasonable that the loss of direct capacity from closing Broadway may be outweighed by the benefits to the streets and avenues it crosses, even if one looks strictly at motor vehicle traffic.

So honestly, I could get behind closing Broadway to cars the whole way between Union Square and Columbus Circle entirely. This would allow its signals with every street from 18th to 58th to be timed such that they coordinate with the signal at the nearest avenue, since there's no need to time signals up and down Broadway for pedestrian traffic flow. It would also give 5th Ave one less signal.  It could well result in a street network that's better for everyone.

[dgolub]

Looking at it as a "downgrade" is a failure to appreciate the whole picture. In Manhattan, most people do not get around by car. There are far more pedestrians than private automobiles and the changes to Broadway have made it more useful to the former. Nowhere is this more apparent than in Times Square, where now rather than the hordes of people being squeezed onto sidewalks that cannot fit them all, they are free to walk everywhere in the street. Still a very crowded place, but it is easier (and safer) to be a pedestrian there now than it was before the changes.

Consider as well the whole Braess' Paradox aspect of traffic. Adding roads does not necessarily improve system efficiency and removing them does not necessarily reduce it - indeed, both can in some cases do the opposite. Everywhere Broadway is open to cars and crosses an avenue, it results in a more complicated intersection which necessitates more signal phases and gives everyone a smaller share of the time. Everywhere it crosses a street, it results in another signal stopping crosstown traffic that can't be well coordinated since these things are always timed to favor north-south traffic. It is entirely reasonable that the loss of direct capacity from closing Broadway may be outweighed by the benefits to the streets and avenues it crosses, even if one looks strictly at motor vehicle traffic.

So honestly, I could get behind closing Broadway to cars the whole way between Union Square and Columbus Circle entirely. This would allow its signals with every street from 18th to 58th to be timed such that they coordinate with the signal at the nearest avenue, since there's no need to time signals up and down Broadway for pedestrian traffic flow. It would also give 5th Ave one less signal.  It could well result in a street network that's better for everyone.

This.  Agreed completely.

[jeffandnicole]

Looking at it as a "downgrade" is a failure to appreciate the whole picture. In Manhattan, most people do not get around by car. There are far more pedestrians than private automobiles and the changes to Broadway have made it more useful to the former. Nowhere is this more apparent than in Times Square, where now rather than the hordes of people being squeezed onto sidewalks that cannot fit them all, they are free to walk everywhere in the street. Still a very crowded place, but it is easier (and safer) to be a pedestrian there now than it was before the changes.

Consider as well the whole Braess' Paradox aspect of traffic. Adding roads does not necessarily improve system efficiency and removing them does not necessarily reduce it - indeed, both can in some cases do the opposite. Everywhere Broadway is open to cars and crosses an avenue, it results in a more complicated intersection which necessitates more signal phases and gives everyone a smaller share of the time. Everywhere it crosses a street, it results in another signal stopping crosstown traffic that can't be well coordinated since these things are always timed to favor north-south traffic. It is entirely reasonable that the loss of direct capacity from closing Broadway may be outweighed by the benefits to the streets and avenues it crosses, even if one looks strictly at motor vehicle traffic.

So honestly, I could get behind closing Broadway to cars the whole way between Union Square and Columbus Circle entirely. This would allow its signals with every street from 18th to 58th to be timed such that they coordinate with the signal at the nearest avenue, since there's no need to time signals up and down Broadway for pedestrian traffic flow. It would also give 5th Ave one less signal.  It could well result in a street network that's better for everyone.

This.  Agreed completely.

Exactly.  If one looks at closing Broadway with blinders on, it seems like a bad move.  But when you look at it from an aerial perspective and see that you come out with a true grid rather than a grid with some oddly angled road running thru it, you see how smooth the entire progression can become.

[Henry]

Then how will people get to the theaters, if no vehicles are allowed through there? Just had to throw it out there.

[NE2]

Then how will people get to the theaters, if no vehicles are allowed through there? Just had to throw it out there.

Dumbest post of 2015?

[Pete from Boston]

Then how will people get to the theaters, if no vehicles are allowed through there? Just had to throw it out there.

Now for the useful answer:

First of all, though it may be counterintuitive, not all Broadway theaters are on Broadway.  Making matters more confusing, Broadway theaters that are not on Broadway are not considered "Off-Broadway theaters."

But the answer to your question about those actually on Broadway, of course, is that people will get there like they get everywhere else in the city — they will walk. There are very few places now where drivers can park at their destination in the city and Broadway theaters are now and will continue to be yet another case of this.

[empirestate]

Then how will people get to the theaters, if no vehicles are allowed through there? Just had to throw it out there.

Almost none (if any) of the stage doors to the Broadway theaters is actually on Broadway; they're all on side streets where vehicles are permitted.


iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

I was wondering how many theatres are actually on Broadway...a quick search didn't really indicate there were any.

[02 Park Ave]

Then how will people get to the theaters, if no vehicles are allowed through there? Just had to throw it out there.

Now for the useful answer:

First of all, though it may be counterintuitive, not all Broadway theaters are on Broadway.  Making matters more confusing, Broadway theaters that are not on Broadway are not considered "Off-Broadway theaters."

But the answer to your question about those actually on Broadway, of course, is that people will get there like they get everywhere else in the city — they will walk. There are very few places now where drivers can park at their destination in the city and Broadway theaters are now and will continue to be yet another case of this.

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

[NE2]

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

Good riddance.

[empirestate]

I was wondering how many theatres are actually on Broadway...a quick search didn't really indicate there were any.

There are a handful that have Broadway addresses or otherwise front on that street, the Winter Garden being one prominent example. But vehicular access is only necessary at the stage door or the loading door, which is always on the side streets.


iPhone

[empirestate]

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

Okay...but you do understand that the Broadway League isn't giving the slightest reciprocal consideration to your viewpoint, right?


iPhone

[froggie]

If any type of business does not have convenient parking available for me, I feel they do not want my business.  Therefore, I do not deal with them.  Hence, I rarely go into any cities.

To put it bluntly, that's a very suburban, windshield-perspective viewpoint to have.  But the reality is that there are plenty of city businesses that do just fine WITHOUT insisting on copious amounts of "convenient parking".