Outline style LED pedestrian signals still in use

[Pink Jazz]

As some should know, many early adopters of LED pedestrian signals chose to go with outline style symbols rather than solid symbols to save money, since the outline symbols required fewer LEDs.  These were deleted in the 2003 MUTCD due to visibility issues for the elderly and visually impaired, requiring that all symbols on pedestrian signals be solid.

I was wondering, does anyone know of cities that still have them in use?  I remember when I lived in the Albuquerque area there was at one point many of the outline style symbols (with countdown timers), although I think most of them have since been replaced with new solid "incandescent look" signals.  Most pedestrian signals here in the Phoenix area, on the other hand, have solid symbols.

[Mohkfry]

Gary Indiana has them along Grant Street and along 11th Ave. Munster Indiana has a few as well. There are others scattered about but I can't remember the exact locations.

[roadfro]

Reno, NV has them at one intersection: Center St & Liberty St. It may have been the city's first use of LED countdowns–Reno uses the solid LED style now.

[thenetwork]

I don't know of too many cities that had outlines to begin with.  Most of the cities I am familiar with went from WALK/DONT WALK setups to incandescent ped/hand lenses to full LED ped/hand installs.

The only area I remember outlined signals was in Metro Detroit/Wayne County which used one-head fiber-optic installs.

[freebrickproductions]

Athens, AL has several countdown ones on the Athens State University campus.
Decatur, AL; Tuscaloosa, AL; and Auburn, AL have a few countdownless ones still in service.
Chattanooga, TN has lots of them still in service around the downtown.
Cullman, AL apparently still has a few, but I'll have to go down there again and check to make sure.
Vestavia Hills, AL may have a few Cooper LEDs in service in their pedestrian signals, and those have an outline man indication for the walk.
Anniston, AL may still have several countdownless ones in service in their downtown.
That's all that I can think of off the top of my head.

[jeffandnicole]

Gloucester County, NJ still has them at intersections where they haven't been replaced.  They also seem to have a tendency to malfunction, showing both the outline of the hand and walker at the same time.

[Pink Jazz]

I think I also remember LED outline pedestrian signals with countdown timers in Downtown Las Vegas in 2003, however, I think they may have been replaced.

[ET21]

Certain older signals around the suburbs of Chicago still have them. A lot have been replaced with newer lights over the last 5 years with modernization projects

[Pink Jazz]

As for some having a solid hand but an outline walking man, I guess this was a compromise to compensate for the higher cost of white LEDs compared to orange; orange is one of the "classic" LED colors, along with red, amber, and "green" (not the traffic signal style pure green, but the traditional chartreuse-y green found on many electronics and hardwired smoke detectors).

[roadfro]

I think I also remember LED outline pedestrian signals with countdown timers in Downtown Las Vegas in 2003, however, I think they may have been replaced.

That may well be possible. Las Vegas did introduce countdown timers in the downtown area first before they rolled out citywide. (I don't personally recall seeing any outline ped signals in Vegas, but my visits to Vegas don't typically take me into downtown proper.) It's a safe bet that if they existed, they've been replaced.

[Pink Jazz]

I think I also remember LED outline pedestrian signals with countdown timers in Downtown Las Vegas in 2003, however, I think they may have been replaced.

That may well be possible. Las Vegas did introduce countdown timers in the downtown area first before they rolled out citywide. (I don't personally recall seeing any outline ped signals in Vegas, but my visits to Vegas don't typically take me into downtown proper.) It's a safe bet that if they existed, they've been replaced.

I think I also remember one installed near the Flamingo on the Strip.  This may have potentially been a test location.

[cl94]

NYCDOT had a bunch. Don't know if they still do.

[odditude]

there are still some in Burlington Twp, NJ on Bromley Blvd.

[M3019C LPS20]

NYCDOT had a bunch. Don't know if they still do.

They still exist there.

[cl94]

If you want to go just across the border, Ontario appears to only use outline signals and they tend to follow the MUTCD pretty closely with only a handful of exceptions, mainly symbol signs. Bunch of them in the Falls a couple hundred yards from the border.

[Pink Jazz]

If you want to go just across the border, Ontario appears to only use outline signals and they tend to follow the MUTCD pretty closely with only a handful of exceptions, mainly symbol signs. Bunch of them in the Falls a couple hundred yards from the border.

The American MUTCD has no jurisdiction in Canada.  In fact, the Canadian MUTCD doesn't even mandate the use of Portland Orange and Lunar White for pedestrian signals, with many installations in Ontario and Quebec using the international Red and Green.

[cl94]

If you want to go just across the border, Ontario appears to only use outline signals and they tend to follow the MUTCD pretty closely with only a handful of exceptions, mainly symbol signs. Bunch of them in the Falls a couple hundred yards from the border.

The American MUTCD has no jurisdiction in Canada.  In fact, the Canadian MUTCD doesn't even mandate the use of Portland Orange and Lunar White for pedestrian signals, with many installations in Ontario and Quebec using the international Red and Green.

You also never placed a restriction on location. While it has no jurisdiction, the Ontario manual (whatever they call it) is heavily influenced by the MUTCD and quite often follows some of New York's quirks, at least in the Golden Horseshoe.

[Pink Jazz]

If you want to go just across the border, Ontario appears to only use outline signals and they tend to follow the MUTCD pretty closely with only a handful of exceptions, mainly symbol signs. Bunch of them in the Falls a couple hundred yards from the border.

The American MUTCD has no jurisdiction in Canada.  In fact, the Canadian MUTCD doesn't even mandate the use of Portland Orange and Lunar White for pedestrian signals, with many installations in Ontario and Quebec using the international Red and Green.

You also never placed a restriction on location. While it has no jurisdiction, the Ontario manual (whatever they call it) is heavily influenced by the MUTCD and quite often follows some of New York's quirks, at least in the Golden Horseshoe.

Does the Ontario manual currently mandate the use of Portland Orange and Lunar White?  While most Canadian provinces use those colors, I think there are many installs in Ontario that use Red and Green.  Quebec as far as I know uses Red/Green exclusively.

[cl94]

If you want to go just across the border, Ontario appears to only use outline signals and they tend to follow the MUTCD pretty closely with only a handful of exceptions, mainly symbol signs. Bunch of them in the Falls a couple hundred yards from the border.

The American MUTCD has no jurisdiction in Canada.  In fact, the Canadian MUTCD doesn't even mandate the use of Portland Orange and Lunar White for pedestrian signals, with many installations in Ontario and Quebec using the international Red and Green.

You also never placed a restriction on location. While it has no jurisdiction, the Ontario manual (whatever they call it) is heavily influenced by the MUTCD and quite often follows some of New York's quirks, at least in the Golden Horseshoe.

Does the Ontario manual currently mandate the use of Portland Orange and Lunar White?  While most Canadian provinces use those colors, I think there are many installs in Ontario that use Red and Green.  Quebec as far as I know uses Red/Green exclusively.

Yes, it does. The hand must be an outline, while the man can be either an outline or solid. Shapes are also very regulated and "walk/don't walk" is strictly prohibited. The traffic signal section of the Ontario Traffic Manual is basically a more-restrictive version of the MUTCD.

[Pink Jazz]

Yes, it does. The hand must be an outline, while the man can be either an outline or solid.

That seems a bit backwards, since I have never seen a pedestrian signal with an outline hand and a solid man; I have only seen the opposite, which is probably due to the higher cost of white LEDs compared to orange.  The 2003 MUTCD has mandated both symbols to be solid.  The current trend for most cities now is to use "incandescent look" LED signals, which places a diffuser over the symbols and countdown timer to give them a more uniform, less pixelated appearance.

[jakeroot]

That seems a bit backwards, since I have never seen a pedestrian signal with an outline hand and a solid man; I have only seen the opposite, which is probably due to the higher cost of white LEDs compared to orange.

An outline of any LED is cheaper than a whole shape. Ontario/Quebec have opted to use outlines for their hands. Though it's a practice unheard of in the US, they do it because it's (evidently) cost effective for them.

Now, as to why both shapes aren't outlines? Couldn't tell you.

[Pink Jazz]

That seems a bit backwards, since I have never seen a pedestrian signal with an outline hand and a solid man; I have only seen the opposite, which is probably due to the higher cost of white LEDs compared to orange.

An outline of any LED is cheaper than a whole shape. Ontario/Quebec have opted to use outlines for their hands. Though it's a practice unheard of in the US, they do it because it's (evidently) cost effective for them.

Now, as to why both shapes aren't outlines? Couldn't tell you.

Well, historically orange LEDs are cheaper than white LEDs, although the cost difference has narrowed in recent years. Orange LEDs have been around since the 70s and were introduced around the same time as amber and green LEDs (all of which came after red and infrared LEDs). White LEDs (along with blue and pure green LEDs), on the other hand were not introduced until the mid-1990s and the costs were initially much higher than the classic red/orange/amber/green.

[roadman]

In Wakefield, MA, outline hand/man ped signals are still in use at these locations:

North Avenue at Prospect Street/Church Street
North Avenue at Albion Street
North Avenue at Main Street

[PurdueBill]

I have wondered for a long time about some pedestrian signals in Peabody, Mass that appeared to be LED but were installed before LED became common (late 80s/early 90s iIrc, which would be early for LEDs) and have worded messages.  If not LED, are they little incandescent bulbs?  Are they an early LED type?  I thought of them in the context of the outline hand/figure signals, which also involve rows of LEDs, not filled-in fields.
If my foggy memory serves, they appeared at more intersections than the one linked, but Peabody Square, Main & Washington, and Central/Railroad/Walnut don't have their original pedestrian signals anymore. 

[Pink Jazz]

I have wondered for a long time about some pedestrian signals in Peabody, Mass that appeared to be LED but were installed before LED became common (late 80s/early 90s iIrc, which would be early for LEDs) and have worded messages.  If not LED, are they little incandescent bulbs?  Are they an early LED type?  I thought of them in the context of the outline hand/figure signals, which also involve rows of LEDs, not filled-in fields.
If my foggy memory serves, they appeared at more intersections than the one linked, but Peabody Square, Main & Washington, and Central/Railroad/Walnut don't have their original pedestrian signals anymore.

Are you sure it is LED and not fiber optic?  White LEDs were not available at the time.  Perhaps it could be fiber optic.