Is the MUTCD taking away idenities of each state?

[Billy F 1988]

To me signs like this are harmless:

I love that overhead Exit 7 gantry, except for that rinky-dink arrow. That's the only thing odd I see, other than that, it looks like something that other state could potentially adopt.

[Ian]

I love that overhead Exit 7 gantry, except for that rinky-dink arrow. That's the only thing odd I see, other than that, it looks like something that other state could potentially adopt.

But the "rinky-dink" arrow is the best part!

[amroad17]

The above photos show the reason the NJ Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway should have signs kept the way they currently are!  There is nothing wrong with having an exit gantry, flip signs, and entry signs like the ones above.  The one thing I do like is the new pull-through signs with the NJ Turnpike logo along with the control city.

[PHLBOS]

There is nothing wrong with having an exit gantry, flip signs, and entry signs like the ones above.

Those will likely be replaced w/LED signs (whole or partial) since those flip-types serve as semi-VMS'.

[Alps]

^Colorado would have therefore rolled out those flag route markers quickly in 1968, since as I observed there were plenty of them by what I think was August of that year. 

I wonder how fast that is compared to, say, the California green route marker rollout of 1964, or South Carolina's fairly lackadaisical approach to their blue shields.  I haven't been to South Carolina since 2010, but the last time I was there, there were plenty of black and white shields left.

By the end of 2012, black and white shields are still around, but quite rare. I'd peg it at "number of East/West US 1 shields in Connecticut in 2003" levels, maybe 20% old and 80% new.

[hbelkins]

Why are the standalone route markers mounted on guide signs, a la New Jersey, eliminated from the new MUTCD? What's the big deal?

[agentsteel53]

By the end of 2012, black and white shields are still around, but quite rare. I'd peg it at "number of East/West US 1 shields in Connecticut in 2003" levels, maybe 20% old and 80% new.

your definition of rare is more inclusive than mine.   

California black and white shields are rare! (one known.)  Colorado black and white shields are, as far as I know, extinct.  SC seems to be even more common than Idaho outline shields, which I think are getting accidentally posted to this day.

[agentsteel53]

Why are the standalone route markers mounted on guide signs, a la New Jersey, eliminated from the new MUTCD? What's the big deal?

indeed.  this seems a bit finicky.

that said - while we're at it, can we eliminate black borders on the surface shields too? 

[Alps]

Why are the standalone route markers mounted on guide signs, a la New Jersey, eliminated from the new MUTCD? What's the big deal?

I think those were out of the MUTCD for some time now - you sure they weren't proscribed in 2003? All it does is add dead non-reflective space to the sign at night that doesn't do anything to convey a message.

Why are the standalone route markers mounted on guide signs, a la New Jersey, eliminated from the new MUTCD? What's the big deal?

indeed.  this seems a bit finicky.

that said - while we're at it, can we eliminate black borders on the surface shields too? 

I have far too many examples to quote, but I'm positive you mean, "can we eliminate black borders that don't match the shape of the shield?"

[kendancy66]

Must ... Push ... Sky ... Back .. to where .. it ... Belongs (whew)

Did that last edit work for you?

Yes the vertical on all those pictures of NJ Turnpike is now looking much better.  I thought the problem was my web browser.  Thank You.

[mgk920]

On the topic of the California-style cutout U.S. shields, what other states have used them? I have seen them in Minnesota (only for marking concurrent U.S. routes on interstates, back when Minnesota actually did that), and Texas.

Iowa uses that as S.O.P. for state circles and US shields on their BGSes.

One thing not yet brought up in this discussion is a musing that I saw a couple of years ago (no reference handy, though) where the writer posited that the over much of the past century and especially since WWII, the MUTCD and its predecessors has actually had a very strong positive effect on overall USA national unity - in that all of the familiar signage is consistent across the USA, but with enough state-by state differences allowed to maintain identities - ie, state route shields (plus Wisconsin's county signs) and minor differences on how things are presented.

Any thoughts?

Mike

[agentsteel53]

I have far too many examples to quote, but I'm positive you mean, "can we eliminate black borders that don't match the shape of the shield?"

yeah, "black backgrounds" is probably a more accurate descriptor - but then we'd have to throw in black borders, to get to shields like this which are the classic surface-mount cutouts I am angling for.

[Flyer78]

why does that Exxon gas station have prices on the back of the sign, to serve wrong-way traffic?

Maybe because people who are in the parking areas might want to read those too.

I always wondered if it is a requirement to post prices on both sides of a sign. I've seen it on the NY Thurway, where prices from one plaza to another may be different, therefore posting prices for westbound traffic on an eastbound area seems a bit odd... and in the Thurway's case, typically the price pylon signs are even with the gas station. Before the new service areas on the Northeast Extension of the PA Turnpike/I-476, the two plazas had four gas pylon signs, all with prices, and if I recall correctly, always posted on all four sign faces.

One story on posting prices is here http://cbsn.ws/GPn7Db * which seems to indicate it is almost tradition to post prices, vs. anything else (and no answer to the "both sides" question)

*If you prefer the full link: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-43144153/why-do-gas-stations-post-their-outrageous-prices-because-well-they-always-have/

[StogieGuy7]

Colorado black and white shields are, as far as I know, extinct. 

By now, that's probably true.  The last of the old "COLO" black and white signs that I knew of were in two places in the Colorado Springs area:

1) Along CO-83 just south of downtown Colorado Springs, near it's intersection with I-25.  However, that was back in the early 1990s - before they extended CO-115 northward and shortened 83 by a bit.  That would have certainly meant the end for them;

2) There were some other old "COLO" black and white shields (again in the early 90s) along CO-67 in the Cripple Creek-Victor area.  I'd bet anything that those old signs have been gone for at least 20 years now. 

There are still quite a few old circle (and maybe a couple of old square) badges along Vermont's state highway system.  From the time before VT traded those in for those green not-an-oval-not-a-circle-not-a-rectangle UFO-style badges.

[agentsteel53]

I'd bet anything that those old signs have been gone for at least 20 years now. 

quite likely.  the last two COLO shield signs that I know of were this one, gone around 2004:


and this one in Pueblo, with one shield, gone by 2007:


I do have a photo, taken in 2008, of a white guide sign on US-160 for state route 184, that appears to have had a new-style flag shield bolted onto an older COLO shield.  so there may very well be a COLO shield left - it's just not visible.

There are still quite a few old circle (and maybe a couple of old square) badges along Vermont's state highway system.  From the time before VT traded those in for those green not-an-oval-not-a-circle-not-a-rectangle UFO-style badges.

the circle is still in use.  town-maintained as opposed to state-maintained road.  the squares are much more rare.  as far as I know, there are no shields in VT older than '61 spec.

this one exists and I think it may be a goof, reflecting NH standard of the time.  the fact that it is placed with '61 spec US shields implies it is probably an attempt at '61 spec.


this is the large '61 spec, used until 1973 or so before they went to the circle:


and this is the much rarer small '61 spec, used as a reassurance until the mid-'60s when all the shields were made large.


as far as I know, there are none of these left - neither the '50s style small-state-name rectangle, and certainly not the embossed US cutout:


there are several of these floating around, in varying states of disrepair.  1961 spec US shield, small size.

[Scott5114]

How fast did Oklahoma roll out the meat cleavers? Seems that was a pretty fast process.

The announcement was made in early 2006, with a goal to get them all replaced by 2007 (which was the year of Oklahoma's centennial). This was largely done, with a few random circles left by the close of 2006 (probably no more than 10% circles, and that's on the high end). That number has only gone down since.

[agentsteel53]

The announcement was made in early 2006, with a goal to get them all replaced by 2007 (which was the year of Oklahoma's centennial). This was largely done, with a few random circles left by the close of 2006 (probably no more than 10% circles, and that's on the high end). That number has only gone down since.

I assume that independent-mount was more quickly replaced than guide sign?

how many did we find in our Nov '09 journey?  any apart from that wacky OK-3 circle on a 21x18 shield on an old alignment?

[deathtopumpkins]

There are still quite a few old circle (and maybe a couple of old square) badges along Vermont's state highway system.  From the time before VT traded those in for those green not-an-oval-not-a-circle-not-a-rectangle UFO-style badges.

You can find plenty of '61 spec large and small squares if you know where to look. Even though I've only been to 2 counties in Vermont I've found probably at least a dozen. Grafton's full of them, for example. Just find some out-of-the way town that maintains its own roads.