The UK votes to leave the EU

[english si]

Trading markets with whom? Red China?

Communist China doesn't produce goods or buy goods - it's little more subsistence-level farming in the few places in China where it is still practised. It's Capitalist China (whose produce is mostly stuff that we don't make (we shipped our low-end manufacturing to Europe and beyond decades ago) or won't travel, so we have almost nothing to lose - but you'd have known that if you'd had any understanding of the UK economy). And I don't recall suggesting China - in fact a search through this thread says that the first mention of it in this thread is what I'm quoting here.

I could continue to type a lengthy reply showing how your post was a big load of nonsense, but this quote is an example to show, in microcosm, that you are almost completely ignorant of the relevant information and rely on outdated notions (the 'red scare' - what is it, 1985?), prejudice, fear-mongering and bigoted xenophobia to make your points (which explains why you didn't think the Remain campaign was bad - you are using the same hate-stirring fallacious bollocks). That you used the straw man fallacy on top of all that too, just adds to why I shouldn't bother typing a lengthy reposte: you'll either not understand it, or will wilfully misunderstand it.

Oh, and to answer your question:

• Iceland (never underestimate Iceland - which is indeed smaller in population than most of the Regional Authorities in the UK, because there's only one and it has the population of Austria, ie it is bigger than 38 of your United States (up to and including Virginia) - England, Portugal, and hopefully tonight France, did so to their peril), who were so keen that they announced it within the 60 hours between the result and my post, despite most of those hours being weekend.
• Mexico (who have a draft proposal for a deal written up already!)
• New Zealand (who have offered to second their trade deal negotiators so we can deal with the influx of requests)
• Australia (pretty sure both main parties said they would - if it's only one, well they will have at least 49.9% of the vote in the election and so a lot of say!)
• South Korea
• Ghana
• the EU (now waiting for us to leave formally so it can offer us the proposal its already worked out)
• the US
• and all other people who want to do business with us, and we would them, but haven't yet said.

[Desert Man]

10-some other EU member nations have minorities of parliaments express interest in withdrawal from the EU. They are Greece, Italy, Sweden (non-Eurozone), Poland (also non-Eurozone), the Czechs (same), the Netherlands (they voted strongly against the rejected EU constitution proposal), Portugal, Spain, and even Denmark, Ireland and France. In the former East Germany, there's a joke: "we changed our money twice: the first was reunification adapting to the West German Mark, and then was solely the Euro, expect the Eurozone to collapse and we change again", LOL.

[cpzilliacus]

Trading markets with whom? Red China?

Communist China doesn't produce goods or buy goods - it's little more subsistence-level farming in the few places in China where it is still practised. It's Capitalist China (whose produce is mostly stuff that we don't make (we shipped our low-end manufacturing to Europe and beyond decades ago) or won't travel, so we have almost nothing to lose - but you'd have known that if you'd had any understanding of the UK economy). And I don't recall suggesting China - in fact a search through this thread says that the first mention of it in this thread is what I'm quoting here.

China is still run by  Communists.  Need I say  more?  Even the "capitalist" part.

I could continue to type a lengthy reply showing how your post was a big load of nonsense, but this quote is an example to show, in microcosm, that you are almost completely ignorant of the relevant information and rely on outdated notions (the 'red scare' - what is it, 1985?), prejudice, fear-mongering and bigoted xenophobia to make your points (which explains why you didn't think the Remain campaign was bad - you are using the same hate-stirring fallacious bollocks). That you used the straw man fallacy on top of all that too, just adds to why I shouldn't bother typing a lengthy reposte: you'll either not understand it, or will wilfully misunderstand it.

1985?  When the United States was run by a president that was hugely popular with some (not me - I consider that man to be one of the worst presidents of the 20th century), not exactly the sharpest tool in the box (compare and contrast with your PM at the time, Margaret Thatcher). 

I do not like imperialists, be they with names like Putin or Mao or Stalin or Catherine the Great or James Knox Polk.

Oh, and to answer your question:

• Iceland (never underestimate Iceland - which is indeed smaller in population than most of the Regional Authorities in the UK, because there's only one and it has the population of Austria, ie it is bigger than 38 of your United States (up to and including Virginia) - England, Portugal, and hopefully tonight France, did so to their peril), who were so keen that they announced it within the 60 hours between the result and my post, despite most of those hours being weekend.
• Mexico (who have a draft proposal for a deal written up already!)
• New Zealand (who have offered to second their trade deal negotiators so we can deal with the influx of requests)
• Australia (pretty sure both main parties said they would - if it's only one, well they will have at least 49.9% of the vote in the election and so a lot of say!)
• South Korea
• Ghana
• the EU (now waiting for us to leave formally so it can offer us the proposal its already worked out)
• the US
• and all other people who want to do business with us, and we would them, but haven't yet said.

Do you think that all of those nations are going to have more economic heft than the 27 nations of the EU?  Note that I am not saying that you should not trade with  most of them, because nations should trade  with each other. 

The North Korean example of juche does not seem to work especially well.

And FWIW, I admire Iceland and the Icelandic people.  The embassy of Iceland in Washington is a tenant of the Swedish embassy - smart move on the part of the Icelandic government.

Have you considered the damage that will be incurred by Britain as companies move away?  Consider this from the Wall Street Journal.

Bottom line - the remain people ran a terrible campaign, and apparently did not bother to reach out to young voters - not sure if that was a matter of laziness or stupidity or arrogance or something else.

But a Britain (or just England or maybe England and Wales) will be a diminished nation without Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that is inevitable if Brexit happens. 

In personal terms, I consider myself a friend of Britain and admire many aspects of the British nation (with the possible exception of driving on the left). I consider Brexit a self-inflicted wound and I find it interesting that the leaders involved in Brexit are leaving politics either of their own will or being forced out.

[US 41]

The only thing that happened is that the UK voted to be a sovereign country that is not controlled by Brussels. The UK is now free to negotiate their own trade agreements just like the US and Canada (and almost every other country) already do.

[SP Cook]

The alarmist idea that this was a black and white vote is, of course, silly.  Free of the EU, the world's 5th largest economy will still trade with Europe, be it a continued EU or the much more likely (and better) eventual result of a former EU, as now.  Just freed of the silly "ever closer union" idiocy of currency union, Euro armies, Euro foreign policy, and having to accomodate the "refugees" (combination of economic migrants and people who are just as extreme as those they are fleeing from, just with a different Caliph in mind), all the while being subject to a "court" where nations that gased people two generations ago and shot people trying to leave their socialistic paradise not 35 years ago lecture the birthplace of the Rule of Law. 

The UK, free and soverign, will be just fine and some Eurocrat will eventually have to find actual work.

As to Northern Ireland, the idea the borders will be put in place is silly.  As to Scotland, the idea that it can make it as an actual country is moreso.  Once the oil runs out, you have golf, sheep, and far-left politicians issuing IOUs.

[Desert Man]

The state of the EU 2016:
An Irish, Portuguese and Greek customers enter the bar.
A German pays for their tab.
DUN DUN DUN DASH!

[english si]

China is still run by  Communists.  Need I say  more?  Even the "capitalist" part.

"Communists" - in name only. Sure they are one party totalitarians, but they have mostly rejected the ideology, especially the economic stuff. It doesn't make much difference anyway, my main point was how your argument that Brexit is bad is based on fear and hatred of those not like you and Red scare is very much that.

1985?  When the United States was run by a president that was hugely popular with some (not me - I consider that man to be one of the worst presidents of the 20th century), not exactly the sharpest tool in the box (compare and contrast with your PM at the time, Margaret Thatcher).

And the point goes wooosh over your head. Unsuprisingly - I said as much.

I do not like imperialists, be they with names like Putin or Mao or Stalin or Catherine the Great or James Knox Polk.

Or Jean-Claude Junker or Donald Tusk or Martin Shultz?

Anti-imperialists sided with Leave and voted Leave out of anti-imperialism. Remain spent a lot of energy lying through their teeth about the EU Army (the official announcement from the Commission was meant to happen late last month, but events have overshadowed it) and other imperialist trappings of the EU, because they knew they were screwed if they didn't portray official EU policy as myths made up by xenophobic Leavers.

Do you think that all of those nations are going to have more economic heft than the 27 nations of the EU?

Given they include the 27 nations of the EU, then duh! Did you even read the list?

Note that I am not saying that you should not trade with  most of them, because nations should trade  with each other.

Exactly - and that was the problem with the EU - it wasn't about trade, but about blocs.

The North Korean example of juche does not seem to work especially well.

And no one voted for juche! OK, maybe a few hardcore EU-philes who wanted Remain to keep us inside the EU's disdain for the world outside Europe (which is growing as the Eurozone economy continues to stagnate and there's the brink of the population collapse - a more inward-focussed EU is part of the managed decline strategy starting to gain traction).

Have you considered the damage that will be incurred by Britain as companies move away?  Consider this from the Wall Street Journal.

Yes - we've lost none. Yet again (try reading around the subject - all you've posted is WSJ articles) the WSJ is completely clueless. Frankfurt and Paris have been trying to get in on the London action for years and failed. Frankfurt even got EU laws passed designed to scupper the City of London (the UK vetoed a tax we'd have paid 93% of, but that veto wasn't allowed to stand) and they have done jack shit to move business to Germany. EU markets are falling faster than the UK - it's not just Brexit (Italy looks close to imploding like Greece), but Brexit was the trigger for a massive collapse in Frankfurt and Paris.

Today, Siemens announced that they were staying, despite saying otherwise on the orders of Osborne (out of his job tomorrow? I hope so!) before the vote.

Bottom line - the remain people ran a terrible campaign

Yes - it was xenophobic, bigoted and hateful

• to non-EU countries and their inhabitents.
  
  • 'Red China', etc aren't to be trusted
    
  • Iceland/Albania/Norway/Switzerland are rubbish and who wants to be like them
    
  • Russia needs a strong EU to be able to stop it (a strong and aggressive EU is what's provoking Putin to attack, having tried to be friends and it falling on deaf ears). Putin was actually never supportive of Brexit (or Czexit or Nexit, and was happy for Ukraine to seek closer ties with the EU, provided they didn't loosen ties with Russia - it was the EU who demanded an either/or approach) and issued a statement saying that there were good and bad things about it for Russia.
    
  • Americans are rednecks who
    
  • Turkey is definitely not joining the EU (said by the biggest pusher for Turkish membership of the EU)
• to those who were voting Leave and on the fence
  
  • that Leave was racist, despite many like me voting for Leave to end the Euro-supremacy of our trade and migration policies
    
  • that Leave was Little Englander, despite Wales (and not small proportions of Scots and Irish) voting Leave, and the Leave campaign being fronted by classic Liberals who wanted to leave Little European mindsets behind
    
  • that Leave killed Jo Cox (even UKIP horror rhetoric didn't kill Jo Cox - someone stark raving mad did) - Will Straw (who is having a bad time recently - heading up the official Remain campaign that failed to everyone's dismay, then his father's being torn to pieces by Chilcot a week later) actually made this campaign strategy
• to the other 27 countries, and the EU itself
  
  • that they would illegally (EU treaty law, and WTO rules) put up barriers between them and their best customer out of spite
    
  • that it needs reform and therefore we must be in it to make it not a shitty organisation as the other 27 countries don't seem to care about it
    
  • that they'd deport UK citizens living in their countries, despite that being a horrific act under international law - of course, PM (well tomorrow) May has refused to say that EU citizens won't be as her Remain stance means she feels she needs to keep the threat of deportation as a bargaining chip (despite every major Leaver, and a majority of the Commons, demanding that assurances to EU nationals living in the UK are given ASAP) as she believes the Remainiac bullshit that the EU27 aren't to be trusted to act in a sensible manner.
    
  • that it will mean a return to the Troubles in Ireland, Gibraltar invaded and World War Three.

and apparently did not bother to reach out to young voters - not sure if that was a matter of laziness or stupidity or arrogance or something else.

Just yesterday, the low turnout was found to be wrong, and it's actually the case that young voters did vote in fairly high numbers, and the alleged 70-30 splits for Remain were bad polling.

Certainly Labour's arrogant stance, that Corbyn was forced to go along with, that Labour is for Remain as no Labour people would ever dream of Brexit (71% of Labour-held seats in Westminster voted Leave), is hilarious as someone who despises Blairism and Brownism and thinks Bennism (now Corbynism) is honourable, but very very misguided (right on the EU though). But it's terrible for our country: either Labour have a leader that can't lead and has most of the parliamentary party against him but is fairly popular with the wider party (though less so the general population), or Labour have a leader who is out of touch with the party outside of parliament and is even less likely to lead them to victory. There's no real opposition, and Theresa May has just been coronated as PM without much of a fight.

But a Britain (or just England or maybe England and Wales) will be a diminished nation without Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that is inevitable if Brexit happens.

Scotland will not leave the Union - the EU has made it clear that the Scottish Government need to respect the vote of 2014 that the Scottish people want to be part of the UK and the vote of 2016 where the UK decided to Leave. Independence will not mean EU membership, which would be the key reason to get it (Spain and Belgium will veto membership for internal issues and are openly saying so, the EU itself refuses to talk and will need a lot of winning around).

Northern Ireland has had everyone involved say that there's not the conditions for a vote - specifically a lack of a clear majority. Wales definitely isn't going from the UK - it was for Leave more than England!

In personal terms, I consider myself a friend of Britain and admire many aspects of the British nation

Then why do you despise 17m+ of its people's choice so much? Why do you think it re-gaining the right to self-determination is so bad?

I consider Brexit a self-inflicted wound

Remain would have been a self-inflicted wound. Unless you think a whiter, less open to the outside world, country that's part of a collapsing bloc that isn't democratic, but it's law sits above this country's parliament's law, is a good thing.

the leaders involved in Brexit are leaving politics either of their own will or being forced out.

Corbyn is last Brexiteer standing

Farage has done his live's ambition and it's time for a more 'red-UKIP' person (ie one who'll appeal lots in Labour areas and thus clean up in the next GE, rather than a middle-class former stockbroker who'll get a lot of votes, but not take them over the line in the north) to take over. Boris got stabbed in the back by Gove and then Gove got shunned as the Conservatives don't like that sort of thing. Leadsom was well out of her depth and gaff-prone, leaving May to claim number 10.

Corbyn is clinging on because they know that Corbyn will win any leadership ballot (and his Leave-leaning and lukewarm support for Remain suits the heartlands more, but the party itself are still in denial about that) as the parliamentary party is completely and utterly unrepresentative of the membership (OK, the electorate isn't behind Corbyn, but probably is more so than any one who might throw their hat into the ring) and not just on Brexit. Angela Eagle, who threw her hat into the ring and started a leadership challenge at the wrong time yesterday, has been threatened with deselection by her constituency party for doing so (and these aren't entryists who paid £3 to elect Corbyn). I gather that he's got the votes from MPs to be allowed to stand against Eagle (despite rule changes that meant he had to), so perhaps the parliamentary party isn't totally hating Corbyn.