D7 Removing "Botts Dots"??

[Brandon]

I wish ODOT would adopt those. It's so hard to see the lane markers in the dark when it's raining on Portland freeways.

Come to NY and see lanes totally disappear when it rains.

Yup. Recently, MassDOT started using standard Stimsonite markers placed in grooves, so they can't be removed by plows. They seem to be holding up. Would be nice if NYSDOT did that. The visibility difference along NY/MA 2 at the border is striking.

ODOT can't use Botts Dots because of snow. Plows would tear them up in the first winter.

I take it you mean Ohio (the only ODOT I usually think of).

IDOT and ISTHA tend to use the recessed reflectors that have a protective metal casing instead of recessing the entire raised reflector.  Of course, after a number of years, the salt can get to them.  ISTHA has also gone to recessing the entire lane marking to protect them from plow damage.

[Kniwt]

WSDOT has mostly done away with botts dots, but they replaced them with, what are in my opinion, superior markings that keep the raised bit, but are exceptionally reflective. They're called raised rib markings, and are used in places with mostly non-snow precipitation (Washington, Oregon, Northern California, the UK, etc).

Saw many of these in west Texas last month, both on centerlines and along the shoulders, and the installations looked fairly new. The ones on the shoulder lines are kind of nasty for cyclists, though -- almost as dangerous as full-fledged rumble strips (but aren't as visible because they're covered by paint), although they don't take any actual space from the shoulder, so that's a plus.

[jeffandnicole]

I wish ODOT would adopt those. It's so hard to see the lane markers in the dark when it's raining on Portland freeways.

I swear I saw raised rib markings down in Oregon just last week. I must have been mistaken.

Not on the Banfield you didn't.
It's possible on the Baldock or East Portland, though. I'll need to check once the snow melts off.

ODOT can't use Botts Dots because of snow. Plows would tear them up in the first winter.

Which ODOT?

Any?

The CA Division of Highways started placing Botts Dots in pavement rebates as early as the mid-60's on facilities within areas that required plowing -- but it was a relatively expensive methodology.  However, no applied pavement marker, whether reflective plastic markings or retroreflective thermoplastic strips, will last too long when subject to regular plowing, which tends to gouge below the pavement surface.  Replacing such markers or treatments is and likely will be a regular springtime activity for some time to come. 

Plows are not gouging below the pavement surface.  A plow blade skims along the surface at most, with salt or other deicing material taking care of what's left on the surface. 

If you're in an area where Botts Dots are used, any other pavement marking should have a very long, useful life. 

We've discussed this with you many a time.  Plows do indeed scrape up paint.  Watch them sometime, you'll be amazed at how much sparking there can be when the blade strikes the pavement repeatedly.  Maybe it just doesn't snow enough in South Jersey for you to notice.

Yes, we discussed paint.  I'm referring to the remark that was made regarding the plow gouging below the road service.

Again...I've mentioned numerous times I'm driving those plows.  I see the sparking from the drivers seat of the plow.  I see the skids.  I see the results of the plowing...the damage to the plows and the roads.  I know what the particulars are when it comes to plowing and salting roads (regardless if the plow operator actually abides by those particulars).  It's a lot more than setting the plow down and flipping a switch to spread salt.

And yes, I took notice of the pictures people posted.  And no doubt some of that could have been caused by plows.  Although going back to my original point way back when, the entire northern half of the country isn't getting relined every spring.  The entire country of Canada isn't getting relined every spring.  In some areas of the country, or some cities, the paint apparently is reapplied each year.   But...I allowed the argument to die down.

So, going back to what I just said...Botts Dots aren't used in areas where there's snow. Thus, there should be no concern in regards to winter maintenance and the material used for strips when replacing Botts dots.

[cl94]

I wish ODOT would adopt those. It's so hard to see the lane markers in the dark when it's raining on Portland freeways.

Come to NY and see lanes totally disappear when it rains.

Yup. Recently, MassDOT started using standard Stimsonite markers placed in grooves, so they can't be removed by plows. They seem to be holding up. Would be nice if NYSDOT did that. The visibility difference along NY/MA 2 at the border is striking.

ODOT can't use Botts Dots because of snow. Plows would tear them up in the first winter.

I take it you mean Ohio (the only ODOT I usually think of).

IDOT and ISTHA tend to use the recessed reflectors that have a protective metal casing instead of recessing the entire raised reflector.  Of course, after a number of years, the salt can get to them.  ISTHA has also gone to recessing the entire lane marking to protect them from plow damage.

I did mean Ohio, as I also forget there are other ODOTs around.

[AsphaltPlanet]

The entire country of Canada isn't getting relined every spring.

umm, for all intents and purposes, actually it is.

[Bickendan]

I wish ODOT would adopt those. It's so hard to see the lane markers in the dark when it's raining on Portland freeways.

I swear I saw raised rib markings down in Oregon just last week. I must have been mistaken.

Not on the Banfield you didn't.
It's possible on the Baldock or East Portland, though. I'll need to check once the snow melts off.

I only used the 5. I drove straight from Tacoma to Keizer to see family, then straight back north.

Street View clearly shows raised rib markings along the 5 at the Terwilliger Curves as well as north of Portland approaching the Columbia River. They are slightly different raised markers than the kind used by WSDOT, but they are still unmistakably raised rib markings.

The Minnesota and the Baldock, sounds about right

[cl94]

The entire country of Canada isn't getting relined every spring.

umm, for all intents and purposes, actually it is.

The only places that don't are in western British Columbia, which doesn't get snow.

[jakeroot]

The entire country of Canada isn't getting relined every spring.

umm, for all intents and purposes, actually it is.

The only places that don't are in western British Columbia, which doesn't get snow.

It doesn't see regular snow a la the rest of Canada. But trust me, it snows just about every winter. 15 inches is average. Inland areas (Abbotsford and east) receive more due to being farther from water. Winter 2016-2017 has been particularly brutal, with snow just about once a week. Some of the fire stations hand out free salt once a week, and people come flocking from all over, like birds, to claim their free salt, since it's become highly desirable this winter.

So, going back to what I just said...Botts Dots aren't used in areas where there's snow. Thus, there should be no concern in regards to winter maintenance and the material used for strips when replacing Botts dots.

That's not true. Like I just said up-thread, Botts Dots are used (formerly and presently depending on the agency) in Seattle, where it snows basically every year (not like Chicago but we still have plows). Here are some examples of botts dots along some urban Seattle freeways: I-705 in Tacoma, the older stretches of the 520, formerly along most of 90 and the 405. Cities like Bellevue still use them for nearly all of their markings.

[jeffandnicole]

Do the plows tear those dots up, or are they low enough that the plows can skim over them?

[jeffandnicole]

As far as like painting goes, I'm still in awe that some areas paint so much.

[coatimundi]

Do the plows tear those dots up, or are they low enough that the plows can skim over them?

Botts dots? No, plows heavily damage them so they're not used very often in an area that gets any kind of snowfall. Coastal California pretty much never sees snow, so they can be (and were) used with great abandon.

[jeffandnicole]

Do the plows tear those dots up, or are they low enough that the plows can skim over them?

Botts dots? No, plows heavily damage them so they're not used very often in an area that gets any kind of snowfall. Coastal California pretty much never sees snow, so they can be (and were) used with great abandon.

What about in the Seattle example above?

[AsphaltPlanet]

http://wsdotblog.blogspot.ca/2008_12_01_archive.html?m=1

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/khbs.relaymedia.com/amp/article/arkansas-highway-department-blames-storm-for-missing-road-reflectors-1/4950813

[jakeroot]

http://wsdotblog.blogspot.ca/2008_12_01_archive.html?m=1

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/khbs.relaymedia.com/amp/article/arkansas-highway-department-blames-storm-for-missing-road-reflectors-1/4950813

Not sure what relevance the second link has, but I appreciate the former.

[coatimundi]

I know they like to talk about their snow and it's always a big deal when they get it, but Western Washington (except for the Olympic Mountains) typically gets an amount of snow that would make most other parts of the northern US chuckle. It's usually enough to cover the ground and stick, but it's gone pretty quickly and it doesn't happen very often. Plows just aren't used that much.

[jakeroot]

I know they like to talk about their snow and it's always a big deal when they get it, but Western Washington (except for the Olympic Mountains) typically gets an amount of snow that would make most other parts of the northern US chuckle. It's usually enough to cover the ground and stick, but it's gone pretty quickly and it doesn't happen very often. Plows just aren't used that much.

It's very much dependent on where you are, how much snow you get. Just a couple weeks ago, Tacoma got a flurry of snow, meanwhile, Des Moines (only 10 miles north) got a half foot. It's very random.

The bigger issue really is whether plows are used or not. The fact remains that Seattle does get enough snow to require plowing from time to time. They wouldn't use Botts Dots if they were an issue for the plows. I do see missing Botts Dots from time to time. I assume this is the result of overly-aggressive plowing. I'm guessing WSDOT lays out specific guidelines for plowing over Botts dots.

[AsphaltPlanet]

^ I think it's relevant to point out that snow =/= snow.

The mean temperature in Seattle is, on average, never below freezing.  So it's probably very rare that snow in Seattle is going to stay on the ground for any extended period of time anyways, therefore the rubber tipped plows don't actually need to be super effective at removing snow since it will likely melt within a day or two anyways.

This obviously isn't the same in a lot of other areas of the continent (or, even further inland in Washington state), where plows often need to be far more effective at removing the snow from the road, because even with generous salt application, it might not melt immediately.

[jakeroot]

^ I think it's relevant to point out that snow =/= snow.

I do find it strange that Arkansas would use steel-tipped plows. They're statistically warmer and less snowy than Seattle, so you'd think rubber-tipped plows would be a perfect fit for them (particularly since raised markers are used (to some extent)).

FWIW, even without raised markers, rubber-tipped plows aren't always a bad idea (*in places that don't see much snow*). They don't plow up all the snow, but I don't think they tear up the pavement markings to the same extent as steel-tipped plows. If I were in charge, I'd use rubber-tipped plows to remove most of the snow, and let the sun and cars melt the rest.

The mean temperature in Seattle is, on average, never below freezing.  So it's probably very rare that snow in Seattle is going to stay on the ground for any extended period of time anyways, therefore the rubber tipped plows don't actually need to be super effective at removing snow since it will likely melt within a day or two anyways.

That's very true. Some areas see snow stick around for several days (outlying areas), but Seattle proper rarely sees prolonged periods of snowpack (if you could even call it that).

This obviously isn't the same in a lot of other areas of the continent (or, even further inland in Washington state), where plows often need to be far more effective at removing the snow from the road, because even with generous salt application, it might not melt immediately.

My whole point with bringing Seattle up in the first place was because cl94 and j&n suggested that areas with snow don't use raised markers. While that's true for areas with more or less permanent snowpack, Seattle (which gets a hell of a lot more snow than Los Angeles or San Francisco) does use raised markers, even with the constant threat of snow. The climate is unique in that, as you said, plowing all the way to the surface isn't generally necessary because there's enough cars driving around to melt the snow from the street by mid-day (snow simply doesn't last long enough to present an issue). If there's a prolonged period of snow (more than three days), and the temperature stays below freezing, that's when you start to see some issues. Because the plow cannot reach all the way to the surface, there's always some sort of snow or ice on the ground (whereas places like Minneapolis or Buffalo might be able to get all the way to the ground with their steel-tipped plows, thus no threat of snow or ice buildup). Before cold nights (snow expected or not), de-icer trucks roam the streets of Puget Sound to prevent freezing. This may also prevent snow from sticking, but I'm not sure how it works.

[jeffandnicole]

Before cold nights (snow expected or not), de-icer trucks roam the streets of Puget Sound to prevent freezing. This may also prevent snow from sticking, but I'm not sure how it works.

This is why brine has become very popular.  It helps melt that first 1/2 inch or inch of snow in the first hour it falls, and from my experiences tends to make snow removal a bit easier.  But once it gets wet, then it loses its effectiveness.  So after an hour, anything new that falls will stick or ice up.  Since black ice could form from moister in the air, brine helps against that too.

If a storm misses the area, the brine sticks to the road until its wet.  Brine laid today will still be there next week if it doesn't get wet.

The worst cases of brine being used is when it's going to rain before changing over.  The rain washes it away in minutes, rendering it useless.  Granted, it's cheap, and it's usually applied during the daytime when the employees are at work anyway, but it's still a waste.

[Brandon]

^ I think it's relevant to point out that snow =/= snow.

I do find it strange that Arkansas would use steel-tipped plows. They're statistically warmer and less snowy than Seattle, so you'd think rubber-tipped plows would be a perfect fit for them (particularly since raised markers are used (to some extent)).

FWIW, even without raised markers, rubber-tipped plows aren't always a bad idea. They don't plow up all the snow, but I don't think they tear up the pavement markings to the same extent as steel-tipped plows. If I were in charge, I'd use rubber-tipped plows to remove most of the snow, and let the sun and cars melt the rest.

It doesn't always work.  Remember that -20F you discussed in the weather thread in Minneapolis?  Nothing melts at those temperatures, and we can have them for days, even weeks on end in the Upper Midwest/Great Lakes.  As an example, we had a season a few years ago we termed "Chiberia".  And then you have the insane amounts of snow that places like the Keweenaw Peninsula get.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/climate-weather/blogs/greetings-from-chiberia-11-surreal-shots-of-the-windy-citys
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_2014_North_American_cold_wave#Record_cold_temperatures
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20140106/chicago/chicago-extreme-cold-temperatures-plunge-chiberia

http://www.uppermichiganssource.com/content/news/Snow-mounds-pile-higher-in-Houghton-County-410679035.html
http://www.upmatters.com/news/local-news/snow-removal-in-keweenaw-county-snowiest-in-the-state/611894351
http://www.mininggazette.com/news/2017/01/keweenaw-gets-dumped-on-while-rest-of-up-spared/

[jeffandnicole]

^ I think it's relevant to point out that snow =/= snow.

I do find it strange that Arkansas would use steel-tipped plows. They're statistically warmer and less snowy than Seattle, so you'd think rubber-tipped plows would be a perfect fit for them (particularly since raised markers are used (to some extent)).

FWIW, even without raised markers, rubber-tipped plows aren't always a bad idea. They don't plow up all the snow, but I don't think they tear up the pavement markings to the same extent as steel-tipped plows. If I were in charge, I'd use rubber-tipped plows to remove most of the snow, and let the sun and cars melt the rest.

It doesn't always work.  Remember that -20F you discussed in the weather thread in Minneapolis?  Nothing melts at those temperatures, and we can have them for days, even weeks on end in the Upper Midwest/Great Lakes.  As an example, we had a season a few years ago we termed "Chiberia".  And then you have the insane amounts of snow that places like the Keweenaw Peninsula get.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/climate-weather/blogs/greetings-from-chiberia-11-surreal-shots-of-the-windy-citys
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_2014_North_American_cold_wave#Record_cold_temperatures
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20140106/chicago/chicago-extreme-cold-temperatures-plunge-chiberia

http://www.uppermichiganssource.com/content/news/Snow-mounds-pile-higher-in-Houghton-County-410679035.html
http://www.upmatters.com/news/local-news/snow-removal-in-keweenaw-county-snowiest-in-the-state/611894351
http://www.mininggazette.com/news/2017/01/keweenaw-gets-dumped-on-while-rest-of-up-spared/

Nicely, snow/ice with temps that cold actually isn't too bad to drive/walk on.  It can't really melt, so traction is pretty good.  When ice gets that small liquid layer on it is when it's slippery and dangerous.

[jakeroot]

^ I think it's relevant to point out that snow =/= snow.

I do find it strange that Arkansas would use steel-tipped plows. They're statistically warmer and less snowy than Seattle, so you'd think rubber-tipped plows would be a perfect fit for them (particularly since raised markers are used (to some extent)).

FWIW, even without raised markers, rubber-tipped plows aren't always a bad idea. They don't plow up all the snow, but I don't think they tear up the pavement markings to the same extent as steel-tipped plows. If I were in charge, I'd use rubber-tipped plows to remove most of the snow, and let the sun and cars melt the rest.

It doesn't always work.  Remember that -20F you discussed in the weather thread in Minneapolis?  Nothing melts at those temperatures, and we can have them for days, even weeks on end in the Upper Midwest/Great Lakes.  As an example, we had a season a few years ago we termed "Chiberia".  And then you have the insane amounts of snow that places like the Keweenaw Peninsula get.

Whoops, my mistake. I meant to specificy that rubber-tipped plows might not be a bad idea, regardless if there's raised markers or not, in areas that don't see much snow (evidently, Arkansas uses steel-tipped plows). There's no doubting the benefits of steel in exceptionally snowy areas.

I've edited my post accordingly.

[mrsman]

I am saddened that Botts Dots are going away.  While I understand the importance of retro-reflectivity, the use of Botts Dots provides a sudden audible noise to drivers that they were drifting out of their lane.  This will be lost once the dots are gone and I don't think the single reflective markers between the stripes will provide a suitable alternative. 

Indeed.  And just at the time when there are more and more distractions for drivers in their cars when this little device would perform a big help to maintaining safety.

[jakeroot]

I am saddened that Botts Dots are going away.  While I understand the importance of retro-reflectivity, the use of Botts Dots provides a sudden audible noise to drivers that they were drifting out of their lane.  This will be lost once the dots are gone and I don't think the single reflective markers between the stripes will provide a suitable alternative. 

Indeed.  And just at the time when there are more and more distractions for drivers in their cars when this little device would perform a big help to maintaining safety.

There are other forms of raised markers, and I don't believe D7 ever stated that they were moving away from raised markers (just Botts dots).

[cl94]

I am saddened that Botts Dots are going away.  While I understand the importance of retro-reflectivity, the use of Botts Dots provides a sudden audible noise to drivers that they were drifting out of their lane.  This will be lost once the dots are gone and I don't think the single reflective markers between the stripes will provide a suitable alternative. 

Indeed.  And just at the time when there are more and more distractions for drivers in their cars when this little device would perform a big help to maintaining safety.

There are other forms of raised markers, and I don't believe D7 ever stated that they were moving away from raised markers (just Botts dots).

I think it would be better to just use reflective markers. More common and more visible.