The most common driver mistake that you see where you live?

[1995hoo]

^^ If traffic's that bad, then just turn right and go around the block.

Depending on where you are, "going around the block" may not always be a reasonable option. I can think of a TWLTL near my house where if you come out of the McDonald's and make a right, "going around the block" would more realistically require going down a street and then cutting a mid-block U-turn to come back to the street that has the TWLTL, simply because the suburban street pattern doesn't allow for just looping around with a few turns. You'd still wind up having to make a left turn without a light anyway. (Making a right turn and then a U at the next light on the street with the TWLTL isn't an option for most drivers because a sign prohibits it, and most people are understandably reluctant to make a left into the high school parking to turn around there.)

[kphoger]

Twltl text

As we can see, this action is legal in many places (if not all), and is common driver behavior.  For these two reasons, even if we were to agree that it's dangerous, I would still not consider it a "mistake".

Similarly:
flipping someone off is not a mistake, it's offensive;
accelerating too slowly or burning rubber is not a mistake, it's mildly annoying;
letting people in front of you when the light turns green is not a mistake, it's slightly inconvenient;
merging at a lower speed than you is not a mistake, it's a difference of opinion.

We have a "Signage pet peeves" thread, an "MUTCD gripes" thread, and a "Roadgeek Rants and Raves" thread.  Maybe we need a "Driver pet peeves" thread?

[J N Winkler]

As we can see, this action is legal in many places (if not all), and is common driver behavior.  For these two reasons, even if we were to agree that it's dangerous, I would still not consider it a "mistake".

I would still consider it a mistake unless it were carried out under unusually favorable circumstances.  The reason for this is that, although it has been established that using a TWLTL to stage left turns is de jure legal in many places, drivers have a separate legal duty to carry out their maneuvers in a safe, cautious manner.  Most of the time it is not possible to use a TWLTL to stage left turns and still meet this standard, and the person who is turning out of a driveway will be found at fault in any accident since he or she is legally obliged to yield to traffic in the road.

Similarly:
flipping someone off is not a mistake, it's offensive;
accelerating too slowly or burning rubber is not a mistake, it's mildly annoying;
letting people in front of you when the light turns green is not a mistake, it's slightly inconvenient;
merging at a lower speed than you is not a mistake, it's a difference of opinion.

These are all excursions from (various flavors of) recommended good practice which, I would agree, are not driving mistakes as such since they don't directly jeopardize safety.

[empirestate]

Certainly one would expect to see much greater volumes of cross traffic going straight through (past the driveway) and not maneuvering into the TWLTL to begin a left turn; however, it takes just one car entering the TWLTL in preparation for a turn, without signalling, to collide with a car moving into the TWLTL to stage a left turn.  One would expect this scenario to be more likely opposite driveways which serve popular businesses or other heavy traffic generators, or in situations where driveway consolidation has occurred without some form of turn protection (such as signalization) being put in.

It does take just one, you're right, but then again it takes just one car to cause a potential accident in any number of scenarios. I guess I just haven't found the center turn lane to be any more hazardous than so many other aspects of urban and suburban driving. And as I say, I find that hazard somewhat mitigated by staging my turn, because my attention to the "just one car" is accompanied by my attention to only one direction of cross traffic, rather than both at once.

The real problem with the single-stage scenario is that it requires a wide gap in traffic, which on a busy road may not occur for several minutes (especially if you execute it in properly cautious fashion and wait for all of the lanes in your desired direction to be clear, not just the lane you intend to turn into).  On the other hand, using the TWLTL to stage the left turn is open to some of the same objections as a turn that puts you side by side with another moving vehicle (e.g. you turn right to right, and another vehicle coming from the other direction turns left to left so that it is next to you)--it requires you to make assumptions about other drivers' intended lane position and direction which, if not borne out in reality, result in a conflict and possibly a collision.

I don't disagree with any of that, but it doesn't seem to appear as high on my list of relative riskiness as it does on yours, is all.

I would suggest a less risky way of using a TWLTL to stage a left turn is simply to turn right out of the driveway, into one of the through lanes (not the TWLTL), move left, enter the TWLTL at a point which is not part of the approach to a driveway in either direction, and U-turn.  This essentially uses the TWLTL as an informal Michigan left.

Besides those instances where that's impossible or impractical, as others have and will describe, I would simply add that in my opinion that's a more risky method, rather than less. I can't imagine such a tactic being fruitful in places like New Jersey and Long Island, where I'm likely to find this type of lane often.

[kphoger]

Agreed.  I have, in general, found staging a left turn in the TWLTL less dangerous than completing the entire left turn in one swoop.  And, as I've mentioned before, it's virtually impossible to navigate Branson (my wife's home town) without doing so.  TWLTLs there are a way of life.

[theline]

^^ If traffic's that bad, then just turn right and go around the block.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.

[kphoger]

^^ If traffic's that bad, then just turn right and go around the block.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left.

True, but then you're no longer on the street you want.

[theline]

Good catch. I was just applying the cliche, but it didn't quite work in this case. 

[NYhwyfan]

Drivers who block intersections and side roads even when there is a sign reminding them "State Law: Do Not Block Side Road"

[Alps]

Merging at a slow speed is indeed a driver mistake. Safe practice is to accelerate toward freeway speed while approaching and within the merge area, not after moving into the freeway lane.

[NE2]

Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.

[Brandon]

Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.

Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway?  You turn into the lane you need.

[jeffandnicole]

Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.

Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway?  You turn into the lane you need.

Because if two lanes were turning left, the person on the left would conflict with the person on the right.

And...

If you are turning left onto a 2 lane roadway, the person across the intersection can legally turn right.

[pianocello]

I can always count on Davenport drivers not to turn into the closest lane. Myself included.

[1995hoo]

Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.

Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway?  You turn into the lane you need.

I was sitting at a red light this morning watching traffic on the other road turning right while I waited for a green. There were two right-turn lanes (one mandatory, one optional). One of the drivers in the mandatory lane apparently thinks like you do, as he turned and immediately tried to bomb across into the left lane (there are three lanes after you turn there). In so doing he nearly smashed into the car that was turning right from the option lane.

[Brandon]

Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.

Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway?  You turn into the lane you need.

Because if two lanes were turning left, the person on the left would conflict with the person on the right.

And...

If you are turning left onto a 2 lane roadway, the person across the intersection can legally turn right.

1. That's a given if you are turning with 2+ turn lanes.

2. No, that's not a given.  If you have the protected arrow, you have right-of-way over the person turning right.  The person turning right is supposed to stop and wait.  Ditto for a left turn during the permitted phase.  The person turning right has right-of-way and you are supposed to stop and wait for him to finish.

[DaBigE]

Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.

Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway?  You turn into the lane you need.

Because in some states, that's the law.

[corco]

Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.

Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway?  You turn into the lane you need.

Why wouldn't you? It's the polite thing to do and you substantially reduce the risk of accident, not necessarily from a car turning right on red at the intersection, but from a car turning right out of a driveway just downstream from you.

It's just good manners, and should be the law where it's not.

[Brandon]

Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.

Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway?  You turn into the lane you need.

Why wouldn't you? It's the polite thing to do and you substantially reduce the risk of accident, not necessarily from a car turning right on red at the intersection, but from a car turning right out of a driveway just downstream from you.

It's just good manners, and should be the law where it's not.

I'll respectfully disagree.  If you do not have the right-of-way to turn, you wait for the other person to complete his turn.  Again, if you do not have a protected left, you wait for the person turning right.  If you have the protected left, the person turning right must stop and wait.  It's as simple as that and does not need a silly law restricting movement.

[empirestate]

Presumably Michigan doesn't have the turn into closest lane rule. Because that would really fuck with Michigan lefts.

Why the hell would you turn into the closet lane anyway?  You turn into the lane you need.

In my state the lane you need is, by law, the closest one. Sometimes you also need, for other reasons, a lane not closest to you, and that's when you work things out using your driving acuity.

Hey, when I was a kid I got yelled at all the time by my peers for not coloring within the lines. Now that I'm all grown up and have the necessary skills to stay within prescribed lines, and so I do unless I need not to. For all the emphasis placed by five-year-olds on staying within lines, I'm awfully surprised how little of that care remains into adulthood!

[corco]

I'll respectfully disagree.  If you do not have the right-of-way to turn, you wait for the other person to complete his turn.  Again, if you do not have a protected left, you wait for the person turning right.  If you have the protected left, the person turning right must stop and wait.  It's as simple as that and does not need a silly law restricting movement.

But if you have that law in place and enforce it, then right turning traffic has the right of way to the outside lane and left turning traffic has right of way to the inside lane, allowing for a lot more throughput.

A four lane road may not be the best way to look at it, because sometimes those are too tight for two vehicles to be turning at the same time. But what about a six lane road? Is it really necessary to deny a right turner the ability to make any movement just to accommodate a left turner that just has to get to the right lane as quickly as possible?

It's a different way of framing right of way. I'm pretty sure that in most situations where a left turner turns into the outside lane and hits somebody turning right into the outside lane, it would be a no-fault accident or the fault of the person turning left, not the fault of the person turning right in states where this is the law.

[Brandon]

I'll respectfully disagree.  If you do not have the right-of-way to turn, you wait for the other person to complete his turn.  Again, if you do not have a protected left, you wait for the person turning right.  If you have the protected left, the person turning right must stop and wait.  It's as simple as that and does not need a silly law restricting movement.

A four lane road may not be the best way to look at it, because sometimes those are too tight for two vehicles to be turning at the same time. But what about a six lane road? Is it really necessary to deny a right turner the ability to make any movement just to accommodate a left turner that just has to get to the right lane as quickly as possible?

Yes.  If the person turning right has a red signal, and the person turning left has a protected signal, the person turning right should wait until it is clear before proceeding.

It's interesting how driving etiquette varies from state to state.  Around here, the Midwest, it is considered uncouth to turn right on red if the left turn has a protected signal.  Most cops will consider an accident to be the fault of the right turning vehicle in that case.

[kphoger]

I'll respectfully disagree.  If you do not have the right-of-way to turn, you wait for the other person to complete his turn.  Again, if you do not have a protected left, you wait for the person turning right.  If you have the protected left, the person turning right must stop and wait.  It's as simple as that and does not need a silly law restricting movement.

A four lane road may not be the best way to look at it, because sometimes those are too tight for two vehicles to be turning at the same time. But what about a six lane road? Is it really necessary to deny a right turner the ability to make any movement just to accommodate a left turner that just has to get to the right lane as quickly as possible?

Yes.  If the person turning right has a red signal, and the person turning left has a protected signal, the person turning right should wait until it is clear before proceeding.

It's interesting how driving etiquette varies from state to state.  Around here, the Midwest, it is considered uncouth to turn right on red if the left turn has a protected signal.  Most cops will consider an accident to be the fault of the right turning vehicle in that case.

I agree with corco.  If I'm facing a red light and want to turn right, then it's my duty to wait until it is "clear" to make my turn.  Especially in places where it's the law for oncoming left-turning traffic to take the left lane, then the definition of "clear" is a little fuzzy.  Think about the step-by-step progression of these scenarios:  (1) merging onto a freeway with no yield sign at the head of the on-ramp; (2) merging onto a freeway with a yield sign at the head of the on-ramp; (3) entering via RIRO on an expressway with an acceleration lane; (4) entering via RIRO on an expressway with no acceleration lane; (5) making a right turn onto an arterial.  All of those situations might mean entering the roadway with another vehicle already in the left lane–a vehicle which may legally enter the lane you intend to use.  Yet we don't hesitate to merge onto a freeway next to an 18-wheeler as long as he's in the left lane.

Also, do you remember when (and it might still be like this, for all I know) the interchange of Harlem Avenue and the Eisenhower featured opposing green left- and right-turn arrows?  EB Ike traffic got a green left arrow onto NB Harlem at the same time WB Ike traffic got a green right arrow onto NB Harlem.  If people don't keep their lanes while turning, that kind of setup turns out badly.

[jeffandnicole]

Most cops will consider an accident to be the fault of the right turning vehicle in that case.

Ultimately though, it's not who the cop considers to be at fault.  It's who the judge considers to be at fault.

[Billy F 1988]

Oh, boy. Where to start. First off, me as a pedestrian. I hate crossing those uncontrolled crosswalks with a passion! Mainly because a good deal of Missoula's streets lack stop lines. Take McDonald Avenue and Russell Street for example. God, I hate crossing that thing! People don't even take at least two to three seconds to look for foot traffic. They're too busy looking for the motoring traffic. One intersection that I also hate that is an accident waiting to happen is Brooks Street and South Avenue heading northbound US 93 Business/eastbound US 12. I get forced to stop because people that turn on to the eastern portion of South Avenue don't see pedestrians cross there. I have a major gripe about that intersection because I'm afraid someone will get hit by an unattentive motorist there.

Now, me as a driver. I hate it when get tail gated. Man that pisses me off so much. I was in the back seat of my roommate's aunt's car a few nights ago coming home from Denny's on Brooks. We got off Ernest Avenue and some dumbass almost ran into the back of us. He honks the horn and I flip the guy the bird. Shit like this piss me off as a motorist. Another thing is that when I obey the speed limits in Missoula, people tend to not like the fact that I'm going the speed limit and that they have to rush me and force me to break the speed limit. That goes for school zones. Those are double fine zones. Why is it that you have to be in that much of a rush to get to where you want to go? Next, speeders! God, I hate speeders! They want to peel off a corner like an F1 racer or pass you by on the interstate at 90 like in a bad NASCAR scene.