Dallas IH 345 study RFQ

[MaxConcrete]

(New thread started since the previous thread is mostly off-topic)

The major corridor study is being launched. See item 0000003234 at the site below
http://www.txdot.gov/business/consultants/architectural-engineering-surveying/advertised-contracts.html

This document has some details on the alternatives to be studied.
http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot/ppd/103017/pre-rfq-presentation.pdf

The removal option is especially severe, since it turns IH 45 into a boulevard south of IH 30 with no connection to IH 30. The complete removal would be a disaster, and is a poison pill for that option as shown in the document.

That leaves the below-grade option, which also removes the elevated structure south of IH 30. This will be very expensive.

[Plutonic Panda]

What would be the added cost if they decided to do a cut and cover tunnel? Have no exit or entry points to downtown throughout the tunnel. Built solely for through traffic. 4 lanes each way should suffice. Just create new portals which would be expensive at the interchanges. Ventilation and lighting systems add onto the cost. Some money would be saved from not rebuilding the new connections to downtown and Deep Ellum.

It isn't a perfect solution but seems like a good compromise. Would be at least worth studying if they intend on spending all of this money.

[Chris]

If they can build the I-635 express lanes below grade, they surely could do that with I-345 as well. But I suppose it is harder to get that kind of funding if it is not a capacity upgrade. It means transportation dollars are spent without improving mobility.

[longhorn]

345 would have to be closed anyway to trench, so the "no freeway" crowd will still get a taste of what a closed 345 is like.

[Interstate 69 Fan]

Hmm... the removal option is scary. One question, though. Where will Interstate 45, US 75, TX 366, and US 175 be re-routed to? City Streets? If so, which ones?

[txstateends]

Hmm... the removal option is scary. One question, though. Where will Interstate 45, US 75, TX 366, and US 175 be re-routed to? City Streets? If so, which ones?

The anti-345ers don't care about or haven't thought about that.  They also have no idea that Sherman is wanting to get interstate status for US 75 once any remaining non-interstate-quality items there are taken care of.  This would surely mean an extension of I-45 to at least US 82 if Sherman's efforts go through.  There would have to be some kind of retained connection in Dallas for I-45 to be extended. 

[The Ghostbuster]

I believe they would be crazy to choose the remove alternative. These are likely needed connections. How feasible would the below-grade alternative be?

[sparker]

Hmm... the removal option is scary. One question, though. Where will Interstate 45, US 75, TX 366, and US 175 be re-routed to? City Streets? If so, which ones?

The anti-345ers don't care about or haven't thought about that.  They also have no idea that Sherman is wanting to get interstate status for US 75 once any remaining non-interstate-quality items there are taken care of.  This would surely mean an extension of I-45 to at least US 82 if Sherman's efforts go through.  There would have to be some kind of retained connection in Dallas for I-45 to be extended. 

I suppose it's possible that if an I-45 extension to Sherman and/or the state line could be rerouted around I-635 east of central Dallas if I-345 removal is undertaken -- but it seems like a waste, particularly if the present elevated section is replaced by a cut-and-cover below-grade facility.  If Sherman-area folks are serious about an Interstate upgrade to US 75 -- and want it to actually be an extension of I-45 -- they should at least make contact with the anti-345 folks to discuss alternatives acceptable to both factions (even if it's just to let the urbanists know that they're out there and active in their own pursuits).  It's likely some in the tear-down movement simply want to Make A Point!!! -- but if the matter involves negotiations beyond a binary "yes/no" format, compromises will come into play, likely from less activist quarters that have some sort of a stake in the outcome.  Cut & cover may well be the final outcome -- but that won't emerge from the "teardown" side.   

[The Ghostbuster]

How much more traffic would use surrounding surface streets and freeways if 345 were removed? Those who want 345 torn down better not complain if they find surrounding roads much more congested than before.

[Bobby5280]

How much more traffic would use surrounding surface streets and freeways if 345 were removed? Those who want 345 torn down better not complain if they find surrounding roads much more congested than before.

If unsigned I-345 were removed it's a sure bet gridlock on surface streets would become a really serious problem in Deep Ellum and the junction between the N Central and Woodall Rodgers freeways. That is unless direct access to the neighborhood is removed by cutting off the thru roadways coming up from I-45 and down from N Central. That would solve any gridlock issues, but it might be really bad for business in Deep Ellum too.

It's also a sure bet that newly completed Horseshoe Project would get jammed up regardless of what's done about Deep Ellum surface street access to I-45 and N Central. The Horseshoe already funnels I-35E & I-30 traffic through downtown. Adding thru I-45/N Central traffic to that is going to put a serious strain on things.

LBJ Freeway isn't all that great an alternative to using I-45 and N Central to get through Dallas. Even with the completed expansion between I-35E and N Central it's still prone to monster traffic jams every bit as bad or even worse than jams that can occur in the downtown area. Routing I-45 along it is a non-starter.

Another alternative would be routing I-45 along the George W Bush Turnpike. But the GWB isn't going to be completed to the South side of Dallas for many years (if ever). The recent political moves to kill toll road projects threatens to grind any superhighway development to a halt.

Also, why should I care what residents in Sherman want? They don't live here. That I should be caring about what some people who live 65 miles north of me want so they can get to Houston 12 minutes faster once or twice a year is misguided.

I have plenty of friends and relatives who live in the Dallas area and none of them spend 100% of their time in their own local neighborhoods. They regularly have to drive to other parts of the metroplex or places out of town. Lots of people who work and play in Downtown Dallas live out in the suburbs and exhurbs of the DFW area. As rapidly as the DFW region is adding population the highway traffic capacity needs are only going to grow. It's already enough of a pain in the ass to get in and out of downtown Dallas. Removing that Southern-most 1.5 miles of N Central Expressway will increase the pain in the ass factor even worse.

I'll certainly agree the existing section of N Central between I-30 and Woodall Rodgers is an eyesore and works to divide downtown and Deep Ellum. I think the best solution, but also most costly, is to replace the elevated freeway with a cut & cover tunnel similar to building Klyde Warren Park over 3 blocks of the Woodall Rodgers Freeway.

San Francisco tore down the Embarcadero Freeway and turned the area into a park, the world didn't end. New York City's economy and infrastructure didn't collapse when they tore down the West Side Highway and turned it into a surface street.

Comparing the West Side Highway/West Street in NYC and the Embarcadero to the first 1.5 miles of North Central Expressway is an apples to oranges comparison. The West Side Highway and Embarcadero were not along major thru traffic corridors. When those two freeways were removed/stubbed their host cities were already pedestrian friendly and had well developed subway and bus systems. The DFW metro is still very much a vehicle-centric region. The Dallas light rail system and regional passenger rail networks aren't yet developed enough to provide an effective alternative to car travel for everyone in that region.

[hotdogPi]

Another alternative would be routing I-45 along the George W Bush Turnpike. But the GWB isn't going to be completed to the South side of Dallas for many years (if ever). The recent political moves to kill toll road projects threatens to grind any superhighway development to a halt.

It's not named after Dubya.

[Plutonic Panda]

Also, why should I care what residents in Sherman want? They don't live here. That I should be caring about what some people who live 65 miles north of me want so they can get to Houston 12 minutes faster once or twice a year is misguided. "Oh, some people in Tulsa want to get to College Station, let's live with this big elevated mess above our neighborhood so they're not slightly inconvenienced sometimes."

Well for one because you live in a city and people have a right to live differently than in a concrete jungle while being able to quick access to downtown.

With your logic, it seems anyone could say about any infrastructure project including interstates. Just because they don't use it or see benifit in it doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to moving good and getting people to and from work.

[sparker]

It seems like a cut-and-cover substitute for the present viaduct is likely the optimal solution for all involved: city residents, suburban commuters, and what through traffic there is.  If the more militant want to dance on the area where the former elevated facility was sited, they can do so quite easily on a nice landscaped "city-commons" type cap.  Won't be cheap by any means, but it does function as a workable solution. 

[bugo]

Anybody who thinks turning US 75 and I-45 into a street is fucking high and isn't thinking rationally. I-635 is not an option because it is way out of the way and would have to be widened to 20 lanes to handle the extra traffic. The anti-car Nazis can go fuck themselves. If they hate cars so much, they should buy a bunch of farmland and build their own car-free utopia out there and leave the rest of us alone.

[Plutonic Panda]

^ +1! This is coming from a millennial lol

[Chris]

These are the 2016 traffic counts by TxDOT



177,000 vehicles per day is a serious traffic volume. According to the map, this is the volume between all exits to Downtown Dallas, so it is through traffic. You can't just detour this traffic via I-35E or I-635. Apart from the required additional mainline capacity, it would also require significant reconstruction of the freeway-to-freeway interchanges, because a typical 1 or 2 lane connector is not designed to handle that kind of additional traffic.

I think they should put the freeway below grade with eight lanes and handle downtown-bound traffic via surface streets, where it can disperse across the grid. A freeway similar to the Woodall Rodgers, but with a longer deck, between 1 and 1.5 mile in length. This will be benificial to both mobility and the city for decades to come.

[hotdogPi]

If I-345 and part of US 75 were instead part of I-45, the removal discussion wouldn't even be happening.

[sparker]

If I-345 and part of US 75 were instead part of I-45, the removal discussion wouldn't even be happening.

Well then.......the folks from up in Sherman need to get off their butts and sit down with their local MPO, TxDOT, and whoever else will listen (maybe their congressperson?) and get I-45 commissioned over both I-345 and US 75 to the OK state line -- just like the folks out by Fort Hood got I-14 signed, sealed, and delivered over their 25-mile stretch of US 190.  That certainly would add a new wrinkle to the mix! -- and it's not like this is anything new to Texas.

After that: O.K., OK: your move! 

[Plutonic Panda]

Anybody who thinks turning US 75 and I-45 into a street is fucking high and isn't thinking rationally. I-635 is not an option because it is way out of the way and would have to be widened to 20 lanes to handle the extra traffic. The anti-car Nazis can go fuck themselves. If they hate cars so much, they should buy a bunch of farmland and build their own car-free utopia out there and leave the rest of us alone.

Wow Jeremy. Great retort. Hope you win something.

I'm not anti freeway, i'm anti this tiny elevated piece of crap.

You come off as pretty anti freeway, not just because you oppose this one.

[Brian556]

Remember that tunnels pose a danger in the event of accident with fire. Elevated is way safer.

[silverback1065]

is this just called 345 just for federal funds?  i see no reason why this isn't just signed as just us 75. 

[Bobby5280]

If complete removal of I-345 was going to be an option that issue should have been settled 15 years ago when the Horseshoe Project was still in its planning stages. The Horseshoe could have been designed to handle at least some of the traffic burden coming from I-45.

TX DOT appears to be promoting the buried freeway option and thankfully at least some city leaders in Dallas seem receptive to that as opposed to completely removing the freeway.

For I-345 to be completely removed from downtown Dallas and not cause major traffic increases on surface streets and other freeways I-45 would have to be removed clear down to I-20. They might as well tear out the US-175 freeway in South Dallas (and that new connecter under construction linking the C F Hawn Freeway with I-45). That funnels a bunch of traffic into downtown via I-45 too.

By the way, I've heard new urbanist types campaigning for the removal of I-30 from downtown Dallas as well, which is an even more ridiculous propositon. What's next? Get rid of I-35E as well? I don't know about anyone else, but there's no way in hell I would visit a giant city's downtown area if I had to drive through dozens of traffic lights to get there. I would only visit destinations in the suburbs. The funny thing is I pretty much do that already with trips down to the Dallas area.

As for pitching mass transit, the park and ride concept may work for commuters who work in the downtown area. It's not so practical an idea for tourists and other visitors. That might explain why the biggest tourist attractions in the DFW area are not in downtown Dallas.

I lived in New York City for 5 years. I rode the bus and subway there frequently. But it wasn't something I wanted to do. It was something I had to do. I knew plenty of people who flatly refused to ride the subway. They did so out of fear of crime (which was bad back then). They also hated the crushing crowds, nasty smells and other unpleasant features. It was as still is a status symbol to at least take a cab, drive or have a car service.

I'm not anti freeway, i'm anti this tiny elevated piece of crap.

I wouldn't exactly call that elevated freeway "tiny." It's pretty big, but it is ugly too.

[Stormwalker]

You come off as pretty anti freeway, not just because you oppose this one.

If the thousands of photos on this website I've taken since 2002 don't convince you otherwise maybe this analogy will:

I really like cars but I'm anti 1972 Ford Pinto. This particular freeway just sucks.

I think everyone agrees that I-345 as it currently exists is terrible, and not just because It's an eyesore.  The traffic flow is terrible.  Large scale reworking is needed.

Even so, making it a city street is not the answer.  Either an improved elevated freeway or a tunnel like Woodall Rogers is needed to meet the traffic flow requirements. 

Speaking as a resident of Dallas (proper, not suburb), I think that even if a new (likely insanely expensive) bypass of Dallas was built and all I-35E and I-45 traffic rerouted, the local traffic alone would still need an I-345 in some form

EDIT: corrected types (really should not use phone to post!)

[Stormwalker]

177,000 vehicles per day is a serious traffic volume. According to the map, this is the volume between all exits to Downtown Dallas, so it is through traffic. You can't just detour this traffic via I-35E or I-635. Apart from the required additional mainline capacity, it would also require significant reconstruction of the freeway-to-freeway interchanges, because a typical 1 or 2 lane connector is not designed to handle that kind of additional traffic.

I think they should put the freeway below grade with eight lanes and handle downtown-bound traffic via surface streets, where it can disperse across the grid. A freeway similar to the Woodall Rodgers, but with a longer deck, between 1 and 1.5 mile in length. This will be benificial to both mobility and the city for decades to come.

OK, let's say you have 177,000 vehicles per day. If they are passing through, they don't need to be in the center city. That's why Washington has a beltway, Atlanta has a perimeter, London has an orbital, and Dallas has 635, 161, or LOOP 12 (or lots of other freeways actually). How many does that get rid of?

Then you have people going into downtown. There no reason for anyone with a destination in downtown to need a freeway THROUGH downtown. How many does that get rid of?

Then you have people going from the northern parts of the city to the southern parts. In fact the only remaining people are going from one specific area of Dallas to another specific area of Dallas - because every other direction has a better route. In that instance the remaining motorists, of which there aren't that many, are welcome to use the 22 6-lane and 6 4-lane  arterial routes that serve those areas. Ta da.

That's nice in theory.  Personally, I think it would have been better if I-45 and I-35E had bypassed Dallas to begin with instead of going through the city center (we'd still need arterial freeways for local traffic, however).  In practice, it just doesn't fly, because...

1). 635 can't remotely handle that traffic.  It can't really handle the traffic it has now.  Expanding it to the size it would need to be to handle that much traffic is not at all feasible - the right-of-way issues in some areas (especially the northeast quarter) make it impossible.  You'd have to build a completely new outer loop - how much would that cost, and would the through traffic be willing to go that far out of the way to the east to begin with?

2). Loop 12 certainly can't handle it.  The west part of Loop 12 is the only segment which is a freeway; the rest of it is on city streets.  There's no really viable connector from I-35E to Loop 12 in the south, much less I-45... you'd have to divert traffic onto I-20 West and then to Spur 408, neither of which is ready for that load... nor is the freeway segment of Loop 12 itself, which already has congestion issues of its own.

3). What "lots of other freeways?".  Dallas' freeway and tollway system consists of...
a). Radial routes through the city center - the "spokes" in Dallas' wagon wheel layout:

• I-45 - Part of the main thing you're trying to divert traffic from.
• US 75- The other part of the main thing you're trying to divert traffic from.  Really needs to be designated as part of I-45 anyway.
• I-35E - The other thing you're trying to divert traffic from.
• I-30 -West-to-Northeast, also carries traffic into downtown, so it's part of your problem.
• US 80 See I-30.
• US 175 - Routes traffic onto I-45, so it's part of your problem as well.
• Dallas North Tollway - starts in downtown and goes north, therefore not usable for bypassing downtown.
• SH 183 (which I initially forgot), which branches off of I-35E north of downtown and heads northwest, not really relevant to bypassing downtown.
  

b). Circumferential routes - none of which provides a complete loop freeway

• SH Loop 12 - Previously addressed.
  
• I-635/I-20 (I still tend to think of this as all being 635, since when I grew up 20 still multiplexed with 30 into downtown) - Previously addressed.
• President George Bush Turnpike - Not even a half-circle at this point, from I-30 to I-30.  Certainly not of any use in relieving traffic from I-45 or I-35E, since you can't really get to it from south of downtown without going through downtown!

c). Connectors

• I-345 - 'nuff said.
• SH Spur 366 (Woodall Rogers Freeway) - connector on the north side of downtown, connects I-35E to US 75 and I-345.  As it exists entirely in the downtown area, not really relevant to the idea of diverting traffic away from downtown.  Also pretty congested already.
• SH Spur 408 - connects I-20 in the south to Loop 12.  Previously touched on when addressing Loop 12.

The "other freeways" you seem to think should be handling this traffic do not exist.  They would have to be built; while that's a great idea, and might be the best long-term solution for Dallas' traffic problems, where's the money going to come from?  And what about the people who live in the areas where those freeways would be built?  They wouldn't be any happier about that than Deep Ellum residents are about I-345.  Finally, what's going to happen during the time between tearing down I-345 and building the new freeways?  It'd make downtown a bigger traffic nightmare than it already is.

In the end, Dallas' freeway system is designed to route traffic through downtown.  Unless you first change that, removing I-345 would be nothing short of a disaster.

EDIT: Fixed wonky formatting, added SH 183 which I initially forgot.[/list]

[hotdogPi]

What do you mean by can't handle - you mean you can't physically fit more cars on them or what? What are you basing that assertion on? What's the capacity that they'd have to bear that they can't handle? What part of the 345 AADT gets shifted to Loop 12, 635, 161, 360, PGBT? You mean its going to be stop and go traffic for 4 hours a day like it is now? so? 635 just can't handle it.

You can't bury it, there's a subway going in. I guess you could finagle it under or over the subway tunnel.

The TxDOT CityMap study http://dallascitymap.com/results.html#home doesn't say the others can't handle it.

I'll give you one thing, there is a dog park under 345 that's dry on rainy days like today and it's very nice to walk the dog down there.

Yes. Roads do have a maximum capacity, usually around 2200 vehicles per hour per lane. And this number corresponds with traffic that is slightly congested but almost at free-flow speeds – adding any cars past this point decreases traffic flow.