Dallas IH 345 study RFQ

[Anthony_JK]

[...]

You don't get to put a freeway wherever you like just because you like freeways, and local communities have the right to rescind bad decisions when there are other options. Every other country in the world does just fine without ten-lane strips of concrete tearing their center cities apart.

Except, it's not about merely plopping a freeway anywhere, but removing a freeway that is a major artery for traffic and forcing such traffic down already burdened surface streets. Deep Ellum and the neighborhoods in Dallas should have a say, but so should those who use the freeway. All alternatives should be considered, not just those you like.

Some people could accuse you of the same confirmation biases that you accuse others of, except against central-city freeways.

And, just because "everyone else does it" does not automatically make it an ironclad truth. The debate over how "throughpass" freeways should be handled in central cities is not as set in stone as some New Urbanists would like it to be.

[bugo]

I've driven on 345 more than most on this board, and I can say with certainty that it functions more like a spur than anything.

You must not have actually driven on it. It is NOT a spur at all. It is a part of a through highway, US 75. The southern stretch of US 75 was renamed I-45 but it is still part of the same highway. It is the main route between Tulsa/Kansas City/northward destinations and Houston/southern destinations. You're wrong.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it isn't a crucial part of the state's (and nation's) highway network. You're either very ignorant about this road or you're lying.

45 to 30 to 35E was often just as fast as 45 to 345 to 366.

But 75 south at 366 to the 45/75 interchange is much faster than taking 366 to 35E to 30 back to 45. You're moving the goalposts and talking about something that is completely different.

You don't get to put a freeway wherever you like just because you like freeways, and local communities have the right to rescind bad decisions when there are other options. Every other country in the world does just fine without ten-lane strips of concrete tearing their center cities apart.

I'm not trying to put a freeway up. The freeway has been there for 45 years. I don't know what you are trying to say by "put(ting) a freeway" up. You're the one who is wanting to change things.

You don't get to tear a freeway down just because you don't like freeways. You're selfish and hypocritical.

And the locals from the neighborhood don't get to make that choice alone. Their opinion doesn't trump (Ha!) the opinion of those who use the highway every day.

And you can't compare the US to other countries. Apples and oranges. The countries that I assume you are referring to are much smaller and more densely populated than the US. They have lots of trains in other countries. In the US, we drive on roads. If you don't like it, move to Lisbon or Prague.

And building the Central Freeway wasn't a bad decision. It was a no-brainer.

I don't understand why you freeway haters think it's OK to have a 1 mile gap in a major artery that not only serves the neighborhood, not only the city, not only the county, not only the metro, not only the region, not only the state but the entire country just because you don't like looking at it. Oh, your poor little eyes are so mistreated having to look at that big mean bully freeway. My heart cries for you.

[bugo]

I've driven on 345 more than most on this board, and I can say with certainty that it functions more like a spur than anything.

45 to 30 to 35E was often just as fast as 45 to 345 to 366.

If I am understanding this correctly:

I-45 to I-30 to I-35E = 1 leg of downtown Dallas freeway box.

I-45 to I-345 to SS 366 = 1 leg of downtown Dallas freeway box.

Approximately equal travel time is what one would normally expect.  On the other hand, this is what happens with I-345 removed:

I-45 to I-345 to US 75 = 1 leg of downtown Dallas freeway box.

I-45 to I-30 to I-35E to SS 366 to US 75 (I-345 removed) = 3 legs of downtown Dallas freeway box.

If these car haters get their way, it won't only be US 75 that is removed. As soon as it is gone they will descend like vultures and whine until they remove the Rogers, Stemmons and Thornton freeways from downtown Dallas. Talk about a dystopian traffic nightmare.

Have you car haters even taken into account the amount of pollution that these cars will emit sitting at traffic lights and putt putting through downtown at 30 MPH? Do you even think things like this through or do you just rely on your emotions?

Not to get too political, but when it comes to highways and guns, the Far Left acts like the Far Right acts about everything else. Emotion, emotion, emotion. No rationality whatsoever. Think with your brain, not your heart.

[bugo]

Yes. However, coming northbound from 45, it's not that much of an imposition to take the three legs. Furthermore, Cesar Chavez and the Good-Lattimer Expy are suitable relief routes for that movement, along with whatever boulevard they put there instead.

If you remove 75, all that traffic will be forced onto I-30/I-35E/TX 366. Those highways are already jammed with traffic as it is. How bad do you think it will be with all this extra traffic?

Like I said, you car haters don't think things through. You just act irrationally and emotionally.

I did think things through. Here are some cold, hard facts. In 2016, an average of 177,340 vehicles a day used US 75/I-345 between I-30 and TX 366. 218,840 vehicles used I-30 between I-45/US 75 and I-35E, 224,462 vehicles used I-35E between I-30 and TX 366 and 204,709 vehicles used TX 366 between I-35E and US 75. Add those 177,340 vehicles to the other three sides of the "downtown loop" and you have an absolute nightmare.

You would have to widen the N, S and W legs to 20 lanes each to handle the traffic. There simply isn't room for that many lanes.

I-345 doesn't split residential neighborhoods in half, There are few if any single-family homes inside the "downtown loop".

Numbers don't lie. Emotions do.

[bugo]

By the way, "TXtoNJ", the 2016 traffic count on the I-345 section of US 75 is 182,863 just south of TX 366. Just to the north of TX 366 on US 75, the traffic count is 251,808. Your claim that I-345 is a "spur" is a lie of Trumpian proportions.

Another tidbit that hasn't been mentioned is that the ramp from westbound TX 366 to southbound I-35E is a single lane ramp. Oops. Like I said, you didn't think it through.

[bugo]

Here are the traffic counts in downtown Dallas. Note that traffic INCREASES on US 75 north of TX 366:

[TXtoNJ]

Yes. However, coming northbound from 45, it's not that much of an imposition to take the three legs. Furthermore, Cesar Chavez and the Good-Lattimer Expy are suitable relief routes for that movement, along with whatever boulevard they put there instead.

If you remove 75, all that traffic will be forced onto I-30/I-35E/TX 366. Those highways are already jammed with traffic as it is. How bad do you think it will be with all this extra traffic?

Like I said, you car haters don't think things through. You just act irrationally and emotionally.

I did think things through. Here are some cold, hard facts. In 2016, an average of 177,340 vehicles a day used US 75/I-345 between I-30 and TX 366. 218,840 vehicles used I-30 between I-45/US 75 and I-35E, 224,462 vehicles used I-35E between I-30 and TX 366 and 204,709 vehicles used TX 366 between I-35E and US 75. Add those 177,340 vehicles to the other three sides of the "downtown loop" and you have an absolute nightmare.

You would have to widen the N, S and W legs to 20 lanes each to handle the traffic. There simply isn't room for that many lanes.

I-345 doesn't split residential neighborhoods in half, There are few if any single-family homes inside the "downtown loop".

Numbers don't lie. Emotions do.

Whoo lord, the projection here.

I'm not against freeways, at all. Just this one.

[bugo]

Nobody has given a rational reason to tear down this freeway. It's all been emotionally charged excuses like "It's ugly" or "I don't like looking at it."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen on the ground and by looking at aerial maps, it doesn't appear that I-345/US 75 cut any neighborhoods in half. It appears to be a commercial district.

Again, give me a rational reason to remove this freeway. I, along with several others in this thread, have given many rational, logical reasons to leave it there. All I've heard is nonsense. Think with your brain, not your heart or gut.

Also, you didn't bother to refute my claims. I refuted yours and provided solid evidence. If I'm wrong tell me why I am. I have seen zero evidence that my stance is incorrect.

[US 89]

Here are the traffic counts in downtown Dallas. Note that traffic INCREASES on US 75 north of TX 366:

The line of thinking seems to be this: 366, 30, and 35E get more traffic than 345 does, therefore 345 doesn't need to exist. Complete BS.

TXtoNJ's arguments seem to focus on the movement from I-35E to US 75 and vice versa. We can't forget the 45 to 75 movement...and originally, that was all US 75! Some people forget that 75 used to go south through Houston all the way to Galveston, as well as north. The only reason 75 doesn't go south from Dallas anymore is that it was replaced by I-45.
If you remove 345, you create a hole in a major north-south route, detouring all its traffic into roads that are already over capacity serving different movements.

[bugo]

TXtoNJ's arguments seem to focus on the movement from I-35E to US 75 and vice versa. We can't forget the 45 to 75 movement...and originally, that was all US 75! Some people forget that 75 used to go south through Houston all the way to Galveston, as well as north. The only reason 75 doesn't go south from Dallas anymore is that it was replaced by I-45.
If you remove 345, you create a hole in a major north-south route, detouring all its traffic into roads that are already over capacity serving different movements.

This guy gets it.

[TXtoNJ]

Here are the traffic counts in downtown Dallas. Note that traffic INCREASES on US 75 north of TX 366:

The line of thinking seems to be this: 366, 30, and 35E get more traffic than 345 does, therefore 345 doesn't need to exist. Complete BS.

TXtoNJ's arguments seem to focus on the movement from I-35E to US 75 and vice versa. We can't forget the 45 to 75 movement...and originally, that was all US 75! Some people forget that 75 used to go south through Houston all the way to Galveston, as well as north. The only reason 75 doesn't go south from Dallas anymore is that it was replaced by I-45.
If you remove 345, you create a hole in a major north-south route, detouring all its traffic into roads that are already over capacity serving different movements.

Very little traffic is going from Central to Schepps, and that traffic has other options (635, DNT, Loop 12).

If the reason you want to maintain this highway and continuing impacting a neighborhood like this is to maintain some sense of Platonic route continuity, then I'd say your priorities are very much out of order.

If I'm wrong tell me why I am. I have seen zero evidence that my stance is incorrect.

It's been provided several times in this thread. You're not going to give in on this one, though, because it seems to be ideological with you. You're basing things off a map instead of what people on the ground are telling you.

People want to live in a nice, pleasant city that's geared toward its residents. You want big urban freeways and to never give in to those who want something different. Why are you in the right here?

[hotdogPi]

Very little traffic is going from Central to Schepps

Do you have data to back up this claim?

[TXtoNJ]

Very little traffic is going from Central to Schepps

Do you have data to back up this claim?

Poke around the forum.

[kphoger]

Very little traffic is going from Central to Schepps

Do you have data to back up this claim?

Poke around the forum.

I just re-read all of your posts in this thread, and quoted below is the only post I found of yours that comes close to providing data.  Everything else is personal opinion and personal experience.  So tell us, what data did I miss?

That's what the report is about. Read through it - it's fairly compelling information.

[J N Winkler]

The report presumably being talked about (first link 25 MB, second link 88 MB):

http://dallascitymap.com/CityMAP_Briefing_092716.compressed.pdf

http://dallascitymap.com/DallasCityMAP_09272016_compressed.pdf

As noted upthread, the I-345 removal scenario assumes mode shift to transit and completion of the Trinity Parkway.

The main reason I am not joining the rush to reduce the debate to "Where do the 180,000 cars go?" in spite of my own reservations about I-345 removal is that screenline AADT does not tell the whole story.  It matters where the cars are going, the routes they are taking to get to their respective destinations, and the sensitivity of those journeys to travel time cost and reliability under various network revision scenarios.

[mrsman]

I've driven on 345 more than most on this board, and I can say with certainty that it functions more like a spur than anything.

45 to 30 to 35E was often just as fast as 45 to 345 to 366.

If I am understanding this correctly:

I-45 to I-30 to I-35E = 1 leg of downtown Dallas freeway box.

I-45 to I-345 to SS 366 = 1 leg of downtown Dallas freeway box.

Approximately equal travel time is what one would normally expect.  On the other hand, this is what happens with I-345 removed:

I-45 to I-345 to US 75 = 1 leg of downtown Dallas freeway box.

I-45 to I-30 to I-35E to SS 366 to US 75 (I-345 removed) = 3 legs of downtown Dallas freeway box.

This notion of the freeway box is really sound.  With the removal of I-345, you are forcing all of the traffic that would take the east side of the box (US 75 to I-45 or US 75 to I-30 East) to take the other 3 sides of the box to compensate for the removal.

All the traffic now has to travel further.  All the traffic now has to join in with the other freeways that are already clogged and add to the mess.  All for what?

Another thing:  There are already many radial traffic flows flowing into the Stemmons Freeway:  I-35E, 114, 183, and DNT.  Should we add another flow of traffic from US 75 into that mix?

The qn shouldn't be how should we get rid of I-345.  The qn should be how to better utilize I-345 so that it provides relief to the existing freeways that are already there.  Is there a better way Us 75 and 366 to form a better connection between I-35E and I-30 east or I-45?

This freeways is not a spur like Milwaukee's Park East freeway or SF's Embarcadero. It is a vital connector between two major radial routes.  Even if it is less busy than I-35E, does not mean that it should be removed completely.

[bugo]

I keep hearing how I-345 "cuts through a neighborhood". Correct me if I'm wrong, but judging from aerial photographs, there are no houses close to I-345, just commercial and/or industrial buildings. The claim that I-345 "cuts through a neighborhood" is categorically false, as is much of the information and alternative facts cited by the anti-I-345 crowd. I don't think the presence of I-345 harms the ambience of the Lizard Lounge one bit.

If you want to live in what you call a "nice, pleasant city" then don't move where there has been an elevated freeway for 45 years. Period. Move to San Francisco if you want that shit. I like knowing that if I go to Dallas, I can get from McKinney to the fairgrounds without having to sit at traffic lights or backtrack 15 miles just to get there.

What "neighborhood" does I-345 cut through here?

[bugo]

Very little traffic is going from Central to Schepps

Do you have data to back up this claim?

No, I don't have one damn shred of data to back up my emotion-based irrational claim.

FIFY

[TXtoNJ]

Very little traffic is going from Central to Schepps

Do you have data to back up this claim?

No, I don't have one damn shred of data to back up my emotion-based irrational claim.

FIFY

Try again. Start with the CityMAP data that J N Winkler so graciously provided again. And actually visit Deep Ellum so you can see just how wrong you are about the land use.

[Bobby5280]

Over the past 15 years a decent number of apartment buildings and condominiums have been built near US-75/unsigned I-345 on what used to be somewhat run down industrial looking land. And I think that exposes the true motivation for getting rid of I-345: make way for some high priced, douchey luxury condos built within spitting distance of Deep Ellum. If the highway is removed some real estate guys might make a bunch of money on the building development deals. But that all assumes we won't have another serious downturn in real estate (even though a really bad new pricing bubble already exists).

[kphoger]

Very little traffic is going from Central to Schepps

Do you have data to back up this claim?

No, I don't have one damn shred of data to back up my emotion-based irrational claim.

FIFY

Try again. Start with the CityMAP data that J N Winkler so graciously provided again. And actually visit Deep Ellum so you can see just how wrong you are about the land use.

Looking at those reports linked to by users such as MaxConcrete, austinri, and J N Winkler (fortunately, the pertinent info in the feasibility study from the OP is duplicated in the CityMAP report), I find the following data.

North Central Expressway (southbound US-75) traffic

Morning rush – 67% local destination, 11% continuing to I-45.
Afternoon rush – 43% local destination, 28% continuing to I-45.

In the morning, more traffic continues to I-45 than to any other radiating freeway.  In the afternoon, traffic continuing to I-45 is roughly the same as traffic continuing to all other radiating freeways combined (28% compared to 29%).

Julius Schepps Freeway (northbound I-45) traffic

Morning rush – 25% local destination, 38% continuing to US-75.
Afternoon rush – 40% local destination, 24% continuing to US-75.

As expected, traffic patterns in this direction are just flip-flopped.  In the morning, traffic continuing to US-75 is roughly the same as traffic continuing to all other radiating freeways combined (38% compared to 37%).  In the afternoon, more traffic continues to US-75 than to any other radiating freeway.



So what do I see in those numbers?

I see that, while most trips originating on either US-75 or I-45 do indeed have a local destination, the northbound morning rush is a clear counterexample; more traffic continues through downtown on I-345 than uses it to reach a local destination.

And, while the southbound afternoon rush isn't quite as dramatic, roughly 2 out of 7 drivers continue through downtown on I-345 rather than using it to reach a local destination.

And, finally, I see missing information.  What percentage of drivers use I-345 to transition between northern I-35E and either eastern I-30 or US-75?  I see data for how many drivers start out on one and end up on the other, but we don't know how many are using the southern part of the box (without I-345) and how many are using the northern part of the box (including I-345).  And those numbers could end up being critical pieces of information.  For example:  in the afternoon, 39% of drivers coming south on I-35E are headed through downtown to either US-75 or I-30.  How many of those drivers use I-345 as part of that trip?  Who knows?

[Road Hog]

I keep hearing how I-345 "cuts through a neighborhood". Correct me if I'm wrong, but judging from aerial photographs, there are no houses close to I-345, just commercial and/or industrial buildings. The claim that I-345 "cuts through a neighborhood" is categorically false, as is much of the information and alternative facts cited by the anti-I-345 crowd. I don't think the presence of I-345 harms the ambience of the Lizard Lounge one bit.

If you want to live in what you call a "nice, pleasant city" then don't move where there has been an elevated freeway for 45 years. Period. Move to San Francisco if you want that shit. I like knowing that if I go to Dallas, I can get from McKinney to the fairgrounds without having to sit at traffic lights or backtrack 15 miles just to get there.

What "neighborhood" does I-345 cut through here?

In the photo you posted, I counted no less than eight streets that pass underneath I-345. So in agreeing with you, I fail to see how Deep Ellum is cut off from the rest of downtown. An elevated freeway may not be scenic, but it's much less of an obstacle to neighborhood traffic than a surface freeway. (I have no problem with a cut-and-cover platform park, a la Woodall.)

[kphoger]

In the photo you posted, I counted no less than eight streets that pass underneath I-345. So in agreeing with you, I fail to see how Deep Ellum is cut off from the rest of downtown. An elevated freeway may not be scenic, but it's much less of an obstacle to neighborhood traffic than a surface freeway. (I have no problem with a cut-and-cover platform park, a la Woodall.)

Six of which are in the neighborhood of Deep Ellum itself.
Elm, Main, Commerce, Good Latimer, Canton, and Taylor all continue through.
The only ones that don't are basically just alleys.

[Duke87]

I don't think burying or building below grade is an option, D2 is going in.

According to DART's website, the preferred alternative has D2 at surface level where it crosses I-345. If built as such, this would not be an obstacle to 345 being moved below grade.

The main reason I am not joining the rush to reduce the debate to "Where do the 180,000 cars go?" in spite of my own reservations about I-345 removal is that screenline AADT does not tell the whole story.  It matters where the cars are going, the routes they are taking to get to their respective destinations, and the sensitivity of those journeys to travel time cost and reliability under various network revision scenarios.

Indeed. What will inevitably happen if any removal scenario starts moving forward is that some of the people who live in Joppa or White Rock Hills and work in Uptown or Richardson, etc. will say "shit, my commute is gonna get jacked up, time to move or find a new job so I don't have to drive through there anymore".

People's origins and destinations are not permanently fixed. If they find they "can't get there from here", many will simply stop trying.

So what you really have to weigh in this debate is the value of being able to "get there from here" against the value unlocked by having the freeway gone. Both are difficult to quantify and much of the valuation is subjective, so there isn't an inherently right or wrong answer.

But yes I, like most here, am skeptical of the merit of flat out removing functionally useful infrastructure for the sake of improving local aesthetics.

I could get behind the idea of moving it below grade and capping it, which would achieve significant aesthetic improvement while maintaining the throughput capacity.

[Bobby5280]

According to DART's website, the preferred alternative has D2 at surface level where it crosses I-345. If built as such, this would not be an obstacle to 345 being moved below grade.

On Sept 13 the Dallas City Council endorsed the Victory-Commerce-Swiss alignment, which would be built mostly below grade. That includes 2 subway stations on either side of Carpenter Park and the I-345 freeway. Aside from that there's nothing to prevent a highway tunnel from being built under a subway tunnel or vice versa. The soil is more stable for tunneling on the East side of downtown than it is on the West side closer to the Trinity River. That's one of the bigger engineering concerns for the D2 subway line.

Then there's the issue of funding for D2. Not all the money is there for it. And then there's the pesky $1.1 Billion Cotton Belt connector. Not everyone thinks the D2 subway line downtown needs to be the top priority.

Indeed. What will inevitably happen if any removal scenario starts moving forward is that some of the people who live in Joppa or White Rock Hills and work in Uptown or Richardson, etc. will say "shit, my commute is gonna get jacked up, time to move or find a new job so I don't have to drive through there anymore".

This is the consequence I don't think many of the anti-freeway folks who like Deep Ellum are considering at all. Deep Ellum has absolutely no monopoly at all on places where to socialize, eat, drink, etc in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. There's places all over the Metroplex where people can do that. Make it a royal pain in the ass for visitors to get in and out of Deep Ellum and you'll see a lot less visitors frequenting that area. I know good and well all the taverns, clubs and other businesses in that area can't survive alone on the money from people who live within walking distance. Hell, I live in Oklahoma and I've partied in Deep Ellum more than a few times over the years. One of the attractions for that zone to people out live outside downtown or even out of state is that it's directly connected to the rest of the highway network. If the downtown residents want to cut off access so only they can hang out in Deep Ellum that's on them. They'll get rid of many potential customers who can wine and dine just as easily in Addison, Lewisville, Arlington and lots of other places. And then when the business drops off we'll see how all those luxury condos hold on to their value.