Football (North America: NFL, CFL, Arena Football, minor leagues)

[texaskdog]

Wondering where the new USFL will go...if they get moving.  Top 8 metro areas without NFL teams:  West would be LA, Portland, Sacramento, Las Vegas, East would be San Antonio, Austin, Columbus, Orlando.  For whatever reason they like tiny Akron.  Other big cities without teams:  Norfolk, Providence, Milwaukee, Memphis, OKC, Louisville, Richmond, Hartford, Birmingham.  Birmingham & Memphis always drew well in the old incarnation.

[mgk920]

^^
The average resident of Metro Milwaukee is an even more rabid Packer fan than are the residents of northeastern Wisconsin.

Mike

[texaskdog]

^^
The average resident of Metro Milwaukee is an even more rabid Packer fan than are the residents of northeastern Wisconsin.

Mike

I could argue that a summer league is not necessarily competing but hard to get a city to buy in to a new "alpha team".  I did have them on the alternate list.

[texaskdog]

I've been doing some NFL geographic replays.  I got kicked off the alternate reality boards by an evil moderator so wondering if its something anyone here does.

[Big John]

^^ Plus Milwaukee doesn't have a stadium that can hold a football game (beyond high school, or D3 college if including adjacent Waukesha County).  You can't fit a regulation football field in Miller Park.

[mgk920]

I've been doing some NFL geographic replays.  I got kicked off the alternate reality boards by an evil moderator so wondering if its something anyone here does.

Howabout if American football, or even better, basketball, in North America were organized in a European-style promotion/relegation system.



Mike

[Alps]

I've been doing some NFL geographic replays.  I got kicked off the alternate reality boards by an evil moderator so wondering if its something anyone here does.

Howabout if American football, or even better, basketball, in North America were organized in a European-style promotion/relegation system.



Mike

Can't work in this country. We invest too much in our franchises - expensive stadia, huge TV and marketing deals, pretty much every corner of this country dedicated to one or at most two franchises. People want to root for the frontrunners. There's not enough territorialism here compared to Europe, where every city wants to be the best.

[english si]

Can't work in this country. We invest too much in our franchises - expensive stadia,

Look at Portsmouth or Leeds - both of which have had the biggest falls linked to over-investment failing: trophies, European football, but followed by money issues, relegation and an inability to recover.

Though teams can recover: my own team Southampton built a new stadium, redeveloped the old one, and within 5 years got relegated, then in the 8 since relegation nearly went bust, got relegated down to the third tier, and won back-to-back promotions and stayed up last season.

It also allows your Swanseas and Wigans to climb up the ladder, replacing mis-managed teams like Portsmouth and Leeds, without the hatred caused by moving a franchise.

huge TV and marketing deals

TV deals done through the league, surely?

pretty much every corner of this country dedicated to one or at most two franchises.

The local rivalry of a Spurs-Arsenal, or a City-United is missing. The rivalries come from "you left our area" pride, rather than about the teams themselves.

People want to root for the frontrunners.

So why do people turn up at Buffalo Bills games? Why do people pay to watch the Detroit Lions or Cleveland Browns? Why do they still visit even when playoff chances have gone? Heh, you guys often go wild at College or High School level games that function like lower-league matches do in England: only with a lot more people.

And given that you can like a college and an NFL team, you can do that with a promotion/relegation system. Only you are creating competition on the fringes with relegation. Bad teams don't race to the bottom to try and get the first draft pick, they try and race away to not be replaced by some other team. If your team can't be kicked out for being poor, and your fanbase will turn up whatever, then there's little incentive to improve/

There's not enough territorialism here compared to Europe, where every city wants to be the best.

With notable exceptions, I'm not sure that is true. In fact, I would say that compared to Europe, the US has a lot more area-based tribalism. And in fact, that area-based tribalism is what drives a lot of it: City X wants to be on the map, and so tries to win over City Y's failing NFL team. And, of course, the prestige of an NFL team, and trying to keep it there.

[mgk920]

Promotion/relegation would also eliminate the problem, especially in basketball and hockey, of weak teams moving from city to city to city in search of homes of some sort.  It the team is crap and doesn't draw, relegate it and replace it with an up and coming team that deserves a better slate of opponents - *DON'T* reward it with the 'first pick in the draft' (or the most slips in the hat for the draft lottery).

And some of the HOTTEST games to watch 'across the pond' are those late-season games involving teams that are in danger of relegation - the 'relegation matches'.

Mike

[formulanone]

It the team is crap and doesn't draw, relegate it and replace it with an up and coming team that deserves a better slate of opponents - *DON'T* reward it with the 'first pick in the draft' (or the most slips in the hat for the draft lottery).

NFL's drive for parity seems to work quite well, although whether the draft lottery works instead of a "worst-picks-first" system is debatable. The NBA is the only major league that uses the lottery system, but has the least number of championship-winning teams over the past thirty years. I still think a draft lottery prevents a team from intentionally tanking, although I have my doubts pro teams with professional athletes could conceivably try to lose badly, when any future contracts are on the line, and they've been wired to win their whole lives.

As an aside, I do think it's fascinating how Americans and Europeans have alternating views of the economics of government* and sports; whereas there's no salary caps, no revenue-sharing, and limited parity systems there in sport, yet we approve of it for our teams, leagues, and franchises, over here in the States...



* = mind you, this is a gross generalization, it obviously isn't one-size-fits-all

[mgk920]

It the team is crap and doesn't draw, relegate it and replace it with an up and coming team that deserves a better slate of opponents - *DON'T* reward it with the 'first pick in the draft' (or the most slips in the hat for the draft lottery).

NFL's drive for parity seems to work quite well, although whether the draft lottery works instead of a "worst-picks-first" system is debatable. The NBA is the only major league that uses the lottery system, but has the least number of championship-winning teams over the past thirty years. I still think a draft lottery prevents a team from intentionally tanking, although I have my doubts pro teams with professional athletes could conceivably try to lose badly, when any future contracts are on the line, and they've been wired to win their whole lives.

As an aside, I do think it's fascinating how Americans and Europeans have alternating views of the economics of government* and sports; whereas there's no salary caps, no revenue-sharing, and limited parity systems there in sport, yet we approve of it for our teams, leagues, and franchises, over here in the States...



* = mind you, this is a gross generalization, it obviously isn't one-size-fits-all

Also, the big difference between 'here' and  'there' with promotion/relegation - with it, there is no need for such things as a salary cap, minimum wage, a players' union and so forth.  If a team is too resource poor and/or crappy, they are simply relegated to the next lower level division and replaced with one from the lower level division that more deserves being there.  There are also no ongoing soap operas regarding weak teams moving from city to city (especially bad in the NBA and NHL).

I kind of like that idea.



Mike

[english si]

Down with commie football and its 32 monopolistic cash cows that aren't allowed to fail!

County Cricket in England (and Wales) runs on a closed-system:
- there's a weird finance scheme that I think means the Test (decent international) sides 'loan' the better players by paying their wages, and the counties pay them back when they play for the county.
- you have to be upped to a First-class county to play in the tournament (last to be so was Durham in 1992, before that it was Glamorgan in 1921) in the proper tournament. There's 18 currently (Derbs, Durham, Essex, Glamorgan, Gloucs, Hants, Kent, Lancashire, Leics, Middlesex, Northants, Notts, Somerset, Surrey, Sussex, Warwicks, Worcs and Yorks), with European national sides, Unicorns' (basically a conglomerate team of the rest of England and Wales) and the 'minor county' of Scotland invited to take part in limited-overs tournaments.
- however, there's two divisions of 9 teams, with 3 sides moving in each direction each year. This was done to fit in the second limited-overs competition.

Rugby League's Super League runs on three-year licenses - before it had been either promotion and relegation or a closed system (they tried both) - they look at things other than just how they play - stadium, finances, marketing, playing strength (inc junior teams). However they are ditching these and going back to promotion/relegation when the licences next run out.

[texaskdog]

It the team is crap and doesn't draw, relegate it and replace it with an up and coming team that deserves a better slate of opponents - *DON'T* reward it with the 'first pick in the draft' (or the most slips in the hat for the draft lottery).

NFL's drive for parity seems to work quite well, although whether the draft lottery works instead of a "worst-picks-first" system is debatable. The NBA is the only major league that uses the lottery system, but has the least number of championship-winning teams over the past thirty years. I still think a draft lottery prevents a team from intentionally tanking, although I have my doubts pro teams with professional athletes could conceivably try to lose badly, when any future contracts are on the line, and they've been wired to win their whole lives.

As an aside, I do think it's fascinating how Americans and Europeans have alternating views of the economics of government* and sports; whereas there's no salary caps, no revenue-sharing, and limited parity systems there in sport, yet we approve of it for our teams, leagues, and franchises, over here in the States...



* = mind you, this is a gross generalization, it obviously isn't one-size-fits-all

Really, there are no dominant teams anymore like there used to be and its the "anyone can beat anyone" mentality.  Don't know if that's bad or good.  Only thing they really don't do is give top team tougher schedules.  Really the best teams only get a couple of tougher games, evened out by the weak links in their own division.

[triplemultiplex]

The most important thing about a professional sport is to keep it entertaining.  The NFL has figured out how to do that by keeping it's teams relatively competitive via revenue sharing, salary caps and its draft system.  The greater the distribution of winning teams geographically, the more interest it will hold for consumers.  It's more fun that way.

Just like chucking tons of cash doesn't guarantee a championship for the Yankees or the Heat, neither does the NFL's system guarantee success for a poorly run team.  A team still has to put together the right elements to win and that is not an easy thing to do.  But at least they aren't working against teams who get an unfair advantage just because more people live in their media market.

[ET21]

Football is back 

[DSS5]

Football is back 

Well, my Alma Mater (Appalachian State) is really stinking it up this year.

So...how 'bout them Buckeyes!

[mgk920]

Just think, Mike McCarthy could have avoided all of that trouble and controversy by simply declining that illegal formation penalty in the play before that one, like he should have!



Mike

[texaskdog]

^^ Plus Milwaukee doesn't have a stadium that can hold a football game (beyond high school, or D3 college if including adjacent Waukesha County).  You can't fit a regulation football field in Miller Park.

What did the Packers do?  Or did they tear that stadium down.

[texaskdog]

Football is back 

Well, my Alma Mater (Appalachian State) is really stinking it up this year.

So...how 'bout them Buckeyes!

They can milk that Michigan win a few more years. But even the Zips almost did.

[1995hoo]

^^ Plus Milwaukee doesn't have a stadium that can hold a football game (beyond high school, or D3 college if including adjacent Waukesha County).  You can't fit a regulation football field in Miller Park.

What did the Packers do?  Or did they tear that stadium down.

They played in old County Stadium, former home of the Brewers. It was demolished in 2001.

[Desert Man]

Locally, the Desert Valley Coyotes of a Southern California league, whom played in San Jacinto last year will move to a new high school football stadium in Rancho Mirage high school closer to it's Palm Springs fan base. There is a larger football stadium in the College of the Desert (home of the COD Roadrunners), but this is what the Coyotes are able to find. I remember when the Coyotes team roster made a public appearance in Youth sports day where I took my nephew to participate in some youth sports provided by local youth sports organizations. It's good to meet them and it comes to show the Palm Springs area is "ready for some football".

[Roadmaestro95]

Well I'd thought I'd never see it...but the Cleveland Browns are 3-2...and are in FIRST PLACE. Good for them, even after they dealt their top pick RB away, and even though they just lost Hoyer for the rest of the year and gotta revert back to Weeden.

[DSS5]

At this point, it would be a miracle if App State pulled a 3-9 season out of this mess. My expectations for the game against The Citadel (who kicked our asses last year but aren't doing so well this season) are so low that they're through the floor. I don't think I'll actually follow it.

At least my Buckeyes are still kicking ass and taking names. Saturday's game should be exciting. It's been a good year for Northwestern so far and they're undefeated, but Ohio State is the first Big 10 team on their schedule.

[Henry]

Not a good time to be a Bears or Seahawks fan...Chicago lost its second in a row, and Seattle has now lost its first.

[Roadmaestro95]

Not a good time to be a Bears or Seahawks fan...Chicago lost its second in a row, and Seattle has now lost its first.

How about being a New York We-Forgot-How-To-Play-Football Giants fan? With Eli "Turnover" Manning at the helm this year instead of our previous ELIte QB...0-5 is looking great!