Coronavirus pandemic

[hotdogPi]

Wearing a mask is not to prevent you from catching the virus. It's to keep you from giving it to others. Thus, not wearing a mask is essentially the same as drunk driving. The law is not there to keep you from doing something stupid and hurting yourself, it's to protect the people around you from you. You don't know if the strangers you're around in the store are diabetic, or if they have some other underlying condition, or if they live with or care for someone who is high risk.

So you think you know more than a person with a biology degree and whose wife is a nurse!?!

Is the biology degree with a specialization in epidemiology? If not, it's irrelevant. Likewise, nurses do not necessarily have expertise in viral infection–a nurse who works in physical therapy or neurology wouldn't necessarily have helpful information to give, for instance.

Use a little common sense. (Not just you, but everyone). If the mask won't prevent you from getting the virus, how can it be expected to prevent you from spreading it? Do the masks have little "one way" or "do not enter" signs on them? People act like the virus is a sentinent being that can make conscious decisions, or like a flea that jumps from one surface to another. If the virus can get in through a mask ("protecting you") then it most certainly can get out through a mask ("protecting others.")

Why do you suppose a surgeon in an operating room wears a mask? It's not because they're afraid of catching anything from the patient...

Let's be honest here, HB and others aren't actually actively engaging in any intelligent "discernment."  They are simply attempting to justify how they want to act.

Masks aren't required for everything. Max Rockatansky does a lot of long-distance running, where it's not needed.

They are definitely needed inside a building, although I could see possible exceptions for things like jewelry stores where you have a single employee behind a counter and no more than one or two customers in the store at any given time.

[Max Rockatansky]

Wearing a mask is not to prevent you from catching the virus. It's to keep you from giving it to others. Thus, not wearing a mask is essentially the same as drunk driving. The law is not there to keep you from doing something stupid and hurting yourself, it's to protect the people around you from you. You don't know if the strangers you're around in the store are diabetic, or if they have some other underlying condition, or if they live with or care for someone who is high risk.

So you think you know more than a person with a biology degree and whose wife is a nurse!?!

Is the biology degree with a specialization in epidemiology? If not, it's irrelevant. Likewise, nurses do not necessarily have expertise in viral infection–a nurse who works in physical therapy or neurology wouldn't necessarily have helpful information to give, for instance.

Use a little common sense. (Not just you, but everyone). If the mask won't prevent you from getting the virus, how can it be expected to prevent you from spreading it? Do the masks have little "one way" or "do not enter" signs on them? People act like the virus is a sentinent being that can make conscious decisions, or like a flea that jumps from one surface to another. If the virus can get in through a mask ("protecting you") then it most certainly can get out through a mask ("protecting others.")

Why do you suppose a surgeon in an operating room wears a mask? It's not because they're afraid of catching anything from the patient...

Let's be honest here, HB and others aren't actually actively engaging in any intelligent "discernment."  They are simply attempting to justify how they want to act.

Masks aren't required for everything. Max Rockatansky does a lot of long-distance running, where it's not needed.

They are definitely needed inside a building, although I could see possible exceptions for things like jewelry stores where you have a single employee behind a counter and no more than one or two customers in the store at any given time.

Hopefully this will come off more tactful than my initial response I drafted to two posts back...   What people like SEWIguy don't understand is that there absolutely situations where masks aren't necessary, even in areas where they aren't required.  Example; in Fresno everyone is supposed to have a mask on while out in a "public space."   That vague definition can be inferred to mean any place that really isn't inside a home where a person is isolated from everyone else.  It isn't realistic to have an order that exactly and expect people to follow it to a tee in all situations.  To your point, there is no way a mask would be workable on a distance run or even a walk for some people.   When I go to the store, I put the mask on...even though I would prefer not to.  We didn't have a mask requirement for quite a long ways into the pandemic and the numbers of new cases really has remained fairly proportional to what they were.  So to that end, I tend to question their effectiveness...that's all.  If holding that opinion somehow makes me a horrible and selfish person in the eyes of someone like SEWIguy then so be it.  I do get tired of people like SEWIguy who are forceful with their views dog piling on anyone who doesn't agree with them. 

[SEWIGuy]

LOL, I never argued that you should be wearing masks outside when you are on a run.  I walk the dog every day, don't wear a mask, and never come within 20 feet of another human being.  The entire context of the discussion was in places like stores, restaurants, etc.

[SectorZ]

Wearing a mask is not to prevent you from catching the virus. It's to keep you from giving it to others. Thus, not wearing a mask is essentially the same as drunk driving. The law is not there to keep you from doing something stupid and hurting yourself, it's to protect the people around you from you. You don't know if the strangers you're around in the store are diabetic, or if they have some other underlying condition, or if they live with or care for someone who is high risk.

So you think you know more than a person with a biology degree and whose wife is a nurse!?!

Is the biology degree with a specialization in epidemiology? If not, it's irrelevant. Likewise, nurses do not necessarily have expertise in viral infection–a nurse who works in physical therapy or neurology wouldn't necessarily have helpful information to give, for instance.

Use a little common sense. (Not just you, but everyone). If the mask won't prevent you from getting the virus, how can it be expected to prevent you from spreading it? Do the masks have little "one way" or "do not enter" signs on them? People act like the virus is a sentinent being that can make conscious decisions, or like a flea that jumps from one surface to another. If the virus can get in through a mask ("protecting you") then it most certainly can get out through a mask ("protecting others.")

Why do you suppose a surgeon in an operating room wears a mask? It's not because they're afraid of catching anything from the patient...

Or, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

A few studies have confirmed surgeons wearing a mask changes nothing for post-operative infection rates.

I also didn't know this until finding it. It kind of shocked me as I would not have expected them to be so useless, but your comment piqued my curiosity.

[kalvado]

What people like SEWIguy don't understand is that there absolutely situations where masks aren't necessary, even in areas where they aren't required.

Much better definition would be - within 6-10' from people other than household members, and having one available when such contact may be plausible (having one in a pocket may be a good idea even on a remote trail). But that may be too lousy of a definition.

[kalvado]

Wearing a mask is not to prevent you from catching the virus. It's to keep you from giving it to others. Thus, not wearing a mask is essentially the same as drunk driving. The law is not there to keep you from doing something stupid and hurting yourself, it's to protect the people around you from you. You don't know if the strangers you're around in the store are diabetic, or if they have some other underlying condition, or if they live with or care for someone who is high risk.

So you think you know more than a person with a biology degree and whose wife is a nurse!?!

Is the biology degree with a specialization in epidemiology? If not, it's irrelevant. Likewise, nurses do not necessarily have expertise in viral infection–a nurse who works in physical therapy or neurology wouldn't necessarily have helpful information to give, for instance.

Use a little common sense. (Not just you, but everyone). If the mask won't prevent you from getting the virus, how can it be expected to prevent you from spreading it? Do the masks have little "one way" or "do not enter" signs on them? People act like the virus is a sentinent being that can make conscious decisions, or like a flea that jumps from one surface to another. If the virus can get in through a mask ("protecting you") then it most certainly can get out through a mask ("protecting others.")

Why do you suppose a surgeon in an operating room wears a mask? It's not because they're afraid of catching anything from the patient...

Or, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

A few studies have confirmed surgeons wearing a mask changes nothing for post-operative infection rates.

I also didn't know this until finding it. It kind of shocked me as I would not have expected them to be so useless, but your comment piqued my curiosity.

Looks like some bad science to me. 95% CI on 36 cases? gimme a break!

[cl94]

What people like SEWIguy don't understand is that there absolutely situations where masks aren't necessary, even in areas where they aren't required.

Much better definition would be - within 6-10' from people other than household members, and having one available when such contact may be plausible (having one in a pocket may be a good idea even on a remote trail). But that may be too lousy of a definition.

I like that definition. For example, when hiking yesterday, I had a mask in my pocket. Generally, I was able to move several feet off the trail so people could pass at distance. But when we couldn't, I masked up and the other people generally did as well. Hell, fellow forum user Dougtone and I had a short meet-up from our cars in Delhi, NY (we were both in the area hiking) and masked up for the short time we talked. It's just not worth the risk and, as a transportation professional, I want to show good behavior when out in the public.

[Max Rockatansky]

LOL, I never argued that you should be wearing masks outside when you are on a run.  I walk the dog every day, don't wear a mask, and never come within 20 feet of another human being.  The entire context of the discussion was in places like stores, restaurants, etc.

But you jumped on me for not liking the concept of not wearing mask, despite me doing so in practice.  To that end, you revealed your true colors on your thought process behind the issue; anyone who thinks differently than you is wrong.  That was the point of me saying "is this an example of social pressure?"    People like you forcing their views unreasonably onto others are just as bad (IMO) as those who are willfully defiant of safety regulation and law. 

Should someone be going to the diner without a mask on if it is required by law or establishment policy?...no.  That doesn't mean that they have to like it or agree with the reasoning behind it.  Like I said, I wasn't under a blank of mask regulations myself I probably wouldn't be wearing one myself.   I personally of the mind that I don't want to get fined, cited, or trespass from a place of business I frequent.  More so, I personally find it pretty lame to vilify someone completely for not wearing a mask either in that situation.  There are infinitely far worse things that a person can do than not wearing a mask.  Not wearing a mask doesn't by default a terrible person make.  The problem is that the concept of "social pressure"  inevitably leads to situations like what transpired above. 

[Max Rockatansky]

What people like SEWIguy don't understand is that there absolutely situations where masks aren't necessary, even in areas where they aren't required.

Much better definition would be - within 6-10' from people other than household members, and having one available when such contact may be plausible (having one in a pocket may be a good idea even on a remote trail). But that may be too lousy of a definition.

I like that definition. For example, when hiking yesterday, I had a mask in my pocket. Generally, I was able to move several feet off the trail so people could pass at distance. But when we couldn't, I masked up and the other people generally did as well. Hell, fellow forum user Dougtone and I had a short meet-up from our cars in Delhi, NY (we were both in the area hiking) and masked up for the short time we talked. It's just not worth the risk and, as a transportation professional, I want to show good behavior when out in the public.

I do likewise when I'm out hiking.  Fortunately most of the trails I venture onto are so remote that encountering others and getting around them really isn't a problem.  If I need to stop at a store I carry a mask with me anyways because I legitimately don't know if it is their policy to have them on usually until I get to the front door. 

[SEWIGuy]

LOL, I never argued that you should be wearing masks outside when you are on a run.  I walk the dog every day, don't wear a mask, and never come within 20 feet of another human being.  The entire context of the discussion was in places like stores, restaurants, etc.

But you jumped on me for not liking the concept of not wearing mask, despite me doing so in practice.  To that end, you revealed your true colors on your thought process behind the issue; anyone who thinks differently than you is wrong.  That was the point of me saying "is this an example of social pressure?"    People like you forcing their views unreasonably onto others are just as bad (IMO) as those who are willfully defiant of safety regulation and law. 

Should someone be going to the diner without a mask on if it is required by law or establishment policy?...no.  That doesn't mean that they have to like it or agree with the reasoning behind it.  Like I said, I wasn't under a blank of mask regulations myself I probably wouldn't be wearing one myself.   

Then you would be selfish.  Period.

If you don't want me to keep jumping on you, stop saying stupid, selfish sh*t.  It's very simple.

[Max Rockatansky]

LOL, I never argued that you should be wearing masks outside when you are on a run.  I walk the dog every day, don't wear a mask, and never come within 20 feet of another human being.  The entire context of the discussion was in places like stores, restaurants, etc.

But you jumped on me for not liking the concept of not wearing mask, despite me doing so in practice.  To that end, you revealed your true colors on your thought process behind the issue; anyone who thinks differently than you is wrong.  That was the point of me saying "is this an example of social pressure?"    People like you forcing their views unreasonably onto others are just as bad (IMO) as those who are willfully defiant of safety regulation and law. 

Should someone be going to the diner without a mask on if it is required by law or establishment policy?...no.  That doesn't mean that they have to like it or agree with the reasoning behind it.  Like I said, I wasn't under a blank of mask regulations myself I probably wouldn't be wearing one myself.   

Then you would be selfish.  Period.

If you don't want me to keep jumping on you, stop saying stupid, selfish sh*t.  It's very simple.

See, it's all about you and what you think.  Be damned what anyone else thinks or feels does it?  Kind of ironic that you're pointing the "selfish"  at me when you can't have your way with everyone agreeing with you wholesale. 

There is a substantial difference between having a reasonable disagreement with someone and being a hot headed jerk about it.  You can't even formulate a clear argument as to why I should change my opinion because you'd rather lob insults.  Maybe it wasn't my place to interject when you did it to another poster but I'm but I rather have my say on how lame it was. 

[Max Rockatansky]

To that end there had been more than a fair share of disagreements in this thread.  I know in my case there was one early on where I "strongly"  disagreed with what another poster was saying. Personally I don't see a problem with disagreements or having different views on this topic (or any other for that matter) so long as they don't descend into outright insults.  I know full well that people are passionate in what they believe one way or the other, but does this really have go bush league like so many other social media posts do?

[hotdogPi]

Not wearing a mask because it isn't necessary is reasonable, even though I disagree with it. The problem is not wearing a mask as a form of protest, or specifically because the virus is overhyped/a hoax/a conspiracy, or because "freedom". Those are the people I want to stay away from.

I do think that if someone is an essential worker at a grocery store or something else that requires being near people for several hours a day, a mask is absolutely required, and this situation is much more important than being a customer for just a few minutes.

Please stop throwing the same insult over and over. It only weakens your case.

[SectorZ]

Then you would be selfish.  Period.

If you don't want me to keep jumping on you, stop saying stupid, selfish sh*t.  It's very simple.

You're the type of person that's going to egg on a jogger or cyclist murdered by some nut with your ridiculous rhetoric because some mask nitwit runs them off the road.

[SEWIGuy]

Then you would be selfish.  Period.

If you don't want me to keep jumping on you, stop saying stupid, selfish sh*t.  It's very simple.

You're the type of person that's going to egg on a jogger or cyclist murdered by some nut with your ridiculous rhetoric because some mask nitwit runs them off the road.

Note to board. Don't run joggers off the road.

[SEWIGuy]

LOL, I never argued that you should be wearing masks outside when you are on a run.  I walk the dog every day, don't wear a mask, and never come within 20 feet of another human being.  The entire context of the discussion was in places like stores, restaurants, etc.

But you jumped on me for not liking the concept of not wearing mask, despite me doing so in practice.  To that end, you revealed your true colors on your thought process behind the issue; anyone who thinks differently than you is wrong.  That was the point of me saying "is this an example of social pressure?"    People like you forcing their views unreasonably onto others are just as bad (IMO) as those who are willfully defiant of safety regulation and law. 

Should someone be going to the diner without a mask on if it is required by law or establishment policy?...no.  That doesn't mean that they have to like it or agree with the reasoning behind it.  Like I said, I wasn't under a blank of mask regulations myself I probably wouldn't be wearing one myself.   

Then you would be selfish.  Period.

If you don't want me to keep jumping on you, stop saying stupid, selfish sh*t.  It's very simple.

See, it's all about you and what you think.  Be damned what anyone else thinks or feels does it?  Kind of ironic that you're pointing the "selfish"  at me when you can't have your way with everyone agreeing with you wholesale. 

There is a substantial difference between having a reasonable disagreement with someone and being a hot headed jerk about it.  You can't even formulate a clear argument as to why I should change my opinion because you'd rather lob insults.  Maybe it wasn't my place to interject when you did it to another poster but I'm but I rather have my say on how lame it was. 

You haven't changed your mind despite mounds of evidence here and presented by experts all over the country.

Because you are selfish and care only about yourself.

I'm not going to try to change your mind. You won't. Selfish people don't.

[Max Rockatansky]

LOL, I never argued that you should be wearing masks outside when you are on a run.  I walk the dog every day, don't wear a mask, and never come within 20 feet of another human being.  The entire context of the discussion was in places like stores, restaurants, etc.

But you jumped on me for not liking the concept of not wearing mask, despite me doing so in practice.  To that end, you revealed your true colors on your thought process behind the issue; anyone who thinks differently than you is wrong.  That was the point of me saying "is this an example of social pressure?"    People like you forcing their views unreasonably onto others are just as bad (IMO) as those who are willfully defiant of safety regulation and law. 

Should someone be going to the diner without a mask on if it is required by law or establishment policy?...no.  That doesn't mean that they have to like it or agree with the reasoning behind it.  Like I said, I wasn't under a blank of mask regulations myself I probably wouldn't be wearing one myself.   

Then you would be selfish.  Period.

If you don't want me to keep jumping on you, stop saying stupid, selfish sh*t.  It's very simple.

See, it's all about you and what you think.  Be damned what anyone else thinks or feels does it?  Kind of ironic that you're pointing the "selfish"  at me when you can't have your way with everyone agreeing with you wholesale. 

There is a substantial difference between having a reasonable disagreement with someone and being a hot headed jerk about it.  You can't even formulate a clear argument as to why I should change my opinion because you'd rather lob insults.  Maybe it wasn't my place to interject when you did it to another poster but I'm but I rather have my say on how lame it was. 

You haven't changed your mind despite mounds of evidence here and presented by experts all over the country.

Because you are selfish and care only about yourself.

I'm not going to try to change your mind. You won't. Selfish people don't.

Well you seem to think that you know more than all of us, so why try to actually educate if your word is absolute?  If you didn't want a debate then why did you start one?  It seems like all you have been capable of is single  sentence insults together and not much more.  It kind of makes me question if you really have thought your stance through at all?  Why not start with some facts and figures from the evidence you cited without reference?  At this point I'm giving you the open door to actually engage in intelligent dialog and perhaps not come off as piggishly hostile towards anyone who doesn't share your world views.   

[hotdogPi]

It kind of makes me question if you really have thought your stance through at all?  Why not start with some facts and figures from the evidence you cited without reference?  At this point I'm giving you the open door to actually engage in intelligent dialog and perhaps not come off as piggishly hostile towards anyone who doesn't share your world views.

The basic concept is simple: if you have the virus, wearing a mask will reduce the risk of spreading it to other people. If you are walking or running outside, you're probably not going to encounter anyone, or if you do, you'll pass by for a few seconds at most. Inside buildings, not only are there more people close by, but it's an enclosed space, and wearing a mask is recommended.

[Max Rockatansky]

It kind of makes me question if you really have thought your stance through at all?  Why not start with some facts and figures from the evidence you cited without reference?  At this point I'm giving you the open door to actually engage in intelligent dialog and perhaps not come off as piggishly hostile towards anyone who doesn't share your world views.

The basic concept is simple: if you have the virus, wearing a mask will reduce the risk of spreading it to other people. If you are walking or running outside, you're probably not going to encounter anyone, or if you do, you'll pass by for a few seconds at most. Inside buildings, not only are there more people close by, but it's an enclosed space, and wearing a mask is recommended.

I don't necessarily disagree.  I was more driving home a point that expecting to being outwardly hostile towards several posters usually doesn't go well.  SEWIguy seems to think his opinion has more value than others and has done little to back his reasons.  I'm not the only person he's gotten into debates on this thread. 

Objectively speaking by definition my stance on wearing masks isn't selfish.  I wear the masks regardless of how I feel, by the nature of that act I'm not being selfish.  By the nature of going to work during the holiday weekend despite wanting to be outside and around others is also not selfish.  So basically I'm left with the conclusion that SEWIguy can't put together a sound reasoning to support the argument that my mental state and not agreeing with him makes me a selfish/ignorant person. 

So my question is, if SEWIguy is so resolute in his beliefs why not try to actually defend them?  I don't think he can actually do it without resulting to insults, maybe he can prove me wrong? 

[Max Rockatansky]

At this point in case anyone is wondering I'm fully aware that I'm not making this current situation any better myself.  That said, if anyone has any new Coronavirus information or topical discussion then I'm game to drop this and move on. 

Here is a starter topic, a federal court ruled in favor of California being allowed to keep churches closed for the time being.  I find that interesting given the Department of Justice just sent a letter to the government regarding potential violations of civil liberties with keeping churches closed.  Los Angeles County received a similar notice from the Department of Justice recently about the length of their emergency order:

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/federal-court-backs-california-gov-gavin-newsoms-orders-162800993--abc-news-topstories.html

In National Park news Pinnacles reopened to cyclists and hikers on 5/22.  That said, you literally have to hike or cycle into the park unless you require handicap access.  Death Valley announced they won't reopen until California enters Phase 3. 

[Roadgeekteen]

I went to the blue hills for a little drive with my family, and the parking lots were almost full.

[Max Rockatansky]

I went to the blue hills for a little drive with my family, and the parking lots were almost full.

A friend of mine went out to the Lewis Creek Trail on Saturday, reported it was packed in spite of trail damage.  I have an employee out at Stevenson Creek Falls, the Trail I busy but they got out early to avoid the crowds.  My wife is driving to her Dad's, she says that people are out fishing on the San Joaquin River but it is otherwise quiet. 

[Max Rockatansky]

Regarding the church debate in California apparently there has been an appeal to the US Supreme Court:

https://www.newsweek.com/california-churchs-battle-gov-gavin-newsom-over-reopening-could-head-supreme-court-1506379

To that end the state issued it's first Church Reopening guidelines today.  The big guideline is in person service capacity will be limited to 25% for the first three weeks of reopening:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-25/california-churches-coronavirus-guidance

[J N Winkler]

Having sat out the mask debate, I figure I may as well report on my reconnaissance visit to the gym last Friday.

Downtown Wichita YMCA

The basics:

*  Normally the parking lot is full, to the extent that I was having to use overflow parking about one-third of the time before COVID-19 took hold here.  Last Friday it was two-thirds empty and I had my choice of free spaces next to the handicap parking in front.

*  About half of the equipment was marked out of use, though adjacent pieces were available if people using each could maintain six-foot separation.

*  Pools and locker rooms were closed, though bathrooms were open.

*  Water fountains were disabled.  Water bottle refilling stations had the fountain function disabled, though they could still be used to refill bottles.

*  All staff were wearing masks and gloves (it is mandatory for them).  I was pretty much the only member wearing a mask.  Nobody appeared to be wearing gloves for purely sanitary reasons (some members use weightlifters' gloves).

*  Members are asked to sanitize equipment both before and after use.  On the main exercise floor, there were stations where staff issued bottles of sanitizer and clean towels.

*  Sanitizer bottle holsters on weight machines etc. were empty.  The only sanitizer bottles you are supposed to use are ones that have been sanitized (on the outside) before being handed to you by a glove-wearing member of staff.

*  Small lockers (used for securing wallets, keys, and other small valuables) appeared still to be in service.

*  Because the gym is located downtown, which has the bulk of lawyers' offices, and is the flagship for the local YMCA, it ordinarily attracts a broad cross-section by age, income, and education level, though the male/female ratio is about two to one and skewed even more toward males in the weight area.  Last Friday, nearly everyone I saw was young and male; I could count the women on the fingers of one hand.  Most of the activity was concentrated in the weight area, with almost no-one using the cardio machines.

[Max Rockatansky]

How were free weights handled?  I would imagine that those would be wiped down after use?  I can see that leading to hoarding of certain weights or people running off with them.  That's probably the biggest problem at my local gym, there has historically been no control of keeping free weights organized and racked properly.  Supposedly my gym is just waiting on the State to announce Phase 3.  I'll probably do a couple extra workouts the week they reopen to get a lay of the land.  I have a feeling the pace will be slowed considerably from what I'm used (mostly circuit training).