Coronavirus pandemic

[webny99]

You don't magically become mature when you turn 18.

Well, you figured that out before turning 18, so that's a step in the right direction!! 

I know adults

Personally, or just in general?

[Roadgeekteen]

You don't magically become mature when you turn 18.

Well, you figured that out before turning 18, so that's a step in the right direction!! 

I know adults

Personally, or just in general?

Well I know that some adults are immature

[corco]

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/mongolian-government-donates-ppe-us-help-fight-covid-19/FNNQGLZ4ARG4RIUGQSCRQOVAKM/
https://akipress.com/news:643974:Mongolia_delivers_$1_million_humanitarian_aid_to_United_States/

You know...just follow the procedures. America used to be the envy of the world, and while the loudest piece of our national leadership tells us "the worst is behind us" and "this is all over" and disparages those who wear masks, the federal government is also quietly accepting foreign aid from countries like Mongolia. With all due respect to the good people of Mongolia, it's entirely a disgrace that we aren't leaders in this and are in this position.

The rest of the developed, free world more or less listened to their scientists and wore masks and stayed home, and their case rates are in steep decline as they open back up. We're not, because we're a bunch of toddlers that can't be bothered to put a piece of cloth over our face to go to Kroger and make some sacrifices for the good of our community.

We're becoming the laughingstock of the world while our national leaders fiddle away. I am heartbroken over what has happened to our once great country. Freedom comes with responsibility and duty to community and I'm ashamed and embarassed that huge parts of our country have forgotten that.

[hotdogPi]

Let's see which places haven't gotten the first wave yet:

Erie, PA
Northern New England (Burlington VT recently had a quick spike but not a full wave)
West Virginia and nearby portions of adjacent states, excluding the area of Virginia near DC (includes Pittsburgh)
Montana
Oregon, although it might be beginning now
Northeast quadrant of Minnesota, UP of Michigan, and the part of Wisconsin in between
Southern half of Missouri except Northwest Arkansas adjacent
Non-factory, non-Kansas City places in Kansas, unless it's just starting now

[Roadgeekteen]

Let's see which places haven't gotten the first wave yet:

Erie, PA
Northern New England (Burlington VT recently had a quick spike but not a full wave)
West Virginia and nearby portions of adjacent states, excluding the area of Virginia near DC (includes Pittsburgh)
Montana
Oregon, although it might be beginning now
Northeast quadrant of Minnesota, UP of Michigan, and the part of Wisconsin in between
Southern half of Missouri except Northwest Arkansas adjacent
Non-factory, non-Kansas City places in Kansas, unless it's just starting now

So essentially very rural areas.

[webny99]

...
Erie, PA

So essentially very rural areas.

PennDOT disagrees, given the 55 mph "urban area" speed limit on I-90.

[kalvado]

You don't magically become mature when you turn 18.

Well, you figured that out before turning 18, so that's a step in the right direction!! 

I know adults

Personally, or just in general?

Well I know that some adults are immature

I know a few who may be mature, but I am not 100% sure..

[kphoger]

How could we possibly afford Bob the luxury of making his own choice on whether to wear the mask or not? And what benefit does that give us as a society?

Your typed the answer.  The benefit to society is that Bob gets to make his own choice.  That's called liberty, and I believe it's a fundamentally noble thing for a nation to afford its citizens.

One lesson from the pandemic: We do need a "nanny state"

One other lesson from the pandemic:  Nobody values freedom in America anymore.  It saddens me to hear a grown American wishing the government would dictate how he lives his life.



Some observations from having been to church for corporate worship for the first time since early March:

(1)  Because our congregation is currently using a space with movable seats, the distance between rows was easily increased.  This was incredibly handy, considering that childcare hasn't started up yet, because it allowed little kids to sit on the floor and draw.  Our family was sitting with a very good friend and her daughter;  our youngest son and her daughter were able to sit right in front of us during the whole sermon and share colored pencils.  Our son was even practicing his writing by copying words from the projection screen.  It was awesome!

(2)  The large majority of people weren't wearing masks, but most people still kept a reasonable distance when greeting each other.  Apparently–and I guess I didn't realize it until this thread–this means most folks at my church are terrible, immature people who have blatant disregard for the well-being of others and have no idea what it means to be a responsible adult.  How could I have not noticed that until now?

(3)  Some people have a hard time maintaining distance, even when greeting someone who is likely to be more worried about viral spread than they.  It's one thing to wait for one person to say "Oh who cares give me a hug" and then close the gap, but it's another thing to just walk right up to someone and start talking.  Those people tend to be loud and exuberant talkers, too.

(4)  A lot of those who did wear masks took them off for singing.  While that's understandable, I did think it was rather counterproductive to remove a mask during the specific time when one would be expelling the most droplets into the air.

(5)  No coffee, tea, or ice water provided–in the name of sanitation.  This was no problem for me because I knew ahead of time, so I made some tea before leaving home and put it in a thermos.  Church coffee is really more of a social thing than a pick-me-up thing anyway, I think:  I'm sure nearly everyone has already had their cup before they ever show up to church.

(6)  Even though childcare hasn't started up yet, the church still provided a DIY diaper changing room, a nursing mothers room, and a "coloring room" for kids who are no longer toddlers but still need to "wiggle" sometimes.  I thought that latter idea was a great one, and one I probably would never have thought to implement.

[kalvado]

One other lesson from the pandemic:  Nobody values freedom in America anymore.  It saddens me to hear a grown American wishing the government would dictate how he lives his life.

Well, there are situations when people must join forces and act together. Wars, fires, floods, well - pandemics.
Would you insist on your freedom to dig through the levee when everyone else tries to build it up and avoid flood?  Well, thanks to Second amendment, some of us would have something to say about it..
Freedom only works when people have some inner feeling of good and bad. Once your idea of freedom starts to go past some line - killing others for no good reason is the most universal example - it ends. In this case, you may argue what is good and what is bad. That would be at least a subject to discussion. But you argue the basic concept. Let me remind you:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

[webny99]

How could we possibly afford Bob the luxury of making his own choice on whether to wear the mask or not? And what benefit does that give us as a society?

Your typed the answer.  The benefit to society is that Bob gets to make his own choice.  That's called liberty, and I believe it's a fundamentally noble thing for a nation to afford its citizens.

That may be, but willingness to be inconvenienced for the health and safety of one's fellow-citizens is a much more noble thing for a citizen to afford their nation.

One other lesson from the pandemic:  Nobody values freedom in America anymore.  It saddens me to hear a grown American wishing the government would dictate how he lives his life.

It's not about freedom. I very much value freedom, I just happen to value the freedom to go to Home Depot, Target, the bank, or the grocery store, much more than I value the freedom of not wearing a mask. It's a trade-off I'm more than willing to make for a restored sense of normalcy. This really has nothing to do with the government, so leave that out of the picture for a minute. This is about understanding what's right for society, and being willing to do it.

I get the feeling that we may just have to wait until there's a bad outbreak in every corner of the country before this starts to sink in.
Not to sound self-righteous here, but I'm quite proud of upstate New York for being one of the only areas of the country to adopt mask-wearing as the norm before getting hit badly by the pandemic.

[SEWIGuy]

One other lesson from the pandemic:  Nobody values freedom in America anymore.  It saddens me to hear a grown American wishing the government would dictate how he lives his life.

This really is an absurd statement.  If anything, we love our personal freedom to our detriment.

[kphoger]

One other lesson from the pandemic:  Nobody values freedom in America anymore.  It saddens me to hear a grown American wishing the government would dictate how he lives his life.

Well, there are situations when people must join forces and act together. Wars, fires, floods, well - pandemics.
Would you insist on your freedom to dig through the levee when everyone else tries to build it up and avoid flood?  Well, thanks to Second amendment, some of us would have something to say about it..
Freedom only works when people have some inner feeling of good and bad. Once your idea of freedom starts to go past some line - killing others for no good reason is the most universal example - it ends. In this case, you may argue what is good and what is bad. That would be at least a subject to discussion. But you argue the basic concept. Let me remind you:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

So you don't see a fundamental difference between (a) committing an act that directly leads to destruction and loss of property and life, and (b) not taking a certain step that would slightly help avoid the potential of inadvertently leading to loss of health or life?  Those two things are equivalent to you and should be treated equally?

Also, thank you for quoting the portion of the Declaration that identifies liberty as an unalienable right.

That may be, but willingness to be inconvenienced for the health and safety of one's fellow-citizens is a much more noble thing for a citizen to afford their nation.

Did I at some point say I don't wear a mask because I consider it an inconvenience?  I don't remember saying that.  What I have said is that I think the benefits of wearing one are overstated.  I rarely find myself in any situation in which I consider the risk I might pose to be in any way significant.  When I anticipate being somewhere that entails confined spaces and little opportunity for proper personal space, then I take a mask along with me.  So far, I've only found myself in one situation where I genuinely believed a mask was appropriately required.

It's not about freedom. I very much value freedom, I just happen to value the freedom to go to Home Depot, Target, the bank, or the grocery store, much more than I value the freedom of not wearing a mask. It's a trade-off I'm more than willing to make for a restored sense of normalcy.

I have both the freedom to go to Home Depot, Target, the bank (currently closed for construction), and the grocery store and the freedom to not wear a mask.  There is no either-or situation going on.

This really has nothing to do with the government, so leave that out of the picture for a minute. This is about understanding what's right for society, and being willing to do it.

As I've said, most people around here don't believe wearing a mask everywhere is "what's right for society", and neither do I.  I guess things are different wear you live.

[corco]

One other lesson from the pandemic:  Nobody values freedom in America anymore.  It saddens me to hear a grown American wishing the government would dictate how he lives his life.

Well, there are situations when people must join forces and act together. Wars, fires, floods, well - pandemics.
Would you insist on your freedom to dig through the levee when everyone else tries to build it up and avoid flood?  Well, thanks to Second amendment, some of us would have something to say about it..
Freedom only works when people have some inner feeling of good and bad. Once your idea of freedom starts to go past some line - killing others for no good reason is the most universal example - it ends. In this case, you may argue what is good and what is bad. That would be at least a subject to discussion. But you argue the basic concept. Let me remind you:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

I think the modern interpretation of "freedom" has gotten absurdly skewed - "freedom" isn't just the ability to do whatever the hell you want without regard for the the well-being for others if you want to.

Our founders envisioned "freedom" as freedom from an unjust, unelected king - as a new country we were "free" because we had the ability to elect our own leaders and form our own government and use representative democracy to choose how we would be governed. "Freedom" was never intended to be freedom from government or freedom from community responsibility. 

I hate what Bruce said but don't totally disagree with it. I don't want us to have to mandate masks - I think that's stupid and is counterthetical to what we should stand for as Americans. But if we don't mandate masks that requires us to all take our civic duty seriously and follow consensus science and data and the leadership of the public health officials that we pay for with our tax dollars and protect our neighbors by making the conscious, patriotic choice to rally around a common cause and wear a mask.

I guess what irks me is we know what we need to do to get cases down to a manageable level and not have a bunch of people die - developed, free (and admittedly some not-so-free) countries all around the world are pulling that off. But we're too stubborn about some ill-defined principles or something to just rally together and follow that same formula, and that's heart-breaking.

[roadman65]

Plus you have way too many stubborn people and know it all types that will refuse to wear it and cannot be enforced so it is no good.  Those who wear the masks (well most of them) will wear them regardless if it is a mandate or not up until the medical community accepts a drug that can cure this disease.

[kphoger]

until the medical community accepts a drug that can cure this disease.

What is the latest on that?  I haven't seen any articles lately about it, plus I'm trying to distance myself from a lot of the news lately.

[kalvado]

One other lesson from the pandemic:  Nobody values freedom in America anymore.  It saddens me to hear a grown American wishing the government would dictate how he lives his life.

Well, there are situations when people must join forces and act together. Wars, fires, floods, well - pandemics.
Would you insist on your freedom to dig through the levee when everyone else tries to build it up and avoid flood?  Well, thanks to Second amendment, some of us would have something to say about it..
Freedom only works when people have some inner feeling of good and bad. Once your idea of freedom starts to go past some line - killing others for no good reason is the most universal example - it ends. In this case, you may argue what is good and what is bad. That would be at least a subject to discussion. But you argue the basic concept. Let me remind you:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

So you don't see a fundamental difference between (a) committing an act that directly leads to destruction and loss of property and life, and (b) not taking a certain step that would slightly help avoid the potential of inadvertently leading to loss of health or life?  Those two things are equivalent to you and should be treated equally?

Also, thank you for quoting the portion of the Declaration that identifies liberty as an unalienable right.

SO you're backing up from "we don't need no government" to "do you think it worth it"?
That's a big step  in the right direction!

[webny99]

I have both the freedom to go to Home Depot, Target, the bank (currently closed for construction), and the grocery store and the freedom to not wear a mask.  There is no either-or situation going on.

There is an either-or situation going on here, because 99% of indoor public places that have reopened have done so with a mandate requiring a face covering while inside.

Did I at some point say I don't wear a mask because I consider it an inconvenience?  I don't remember saying that.  What I have said is that I think the benefits of wearing one are overstated.  I rarely find myself in any situation in which I consider the risk I might pose to be in any way significant.
...
As I've said, most people around here don't believe wearing a mask everywhere is "what's right for society", and neither do I.  I guess things are different wear you live.

Pun aside, intentional or otherwise, yes, I think things are different where I live, not least because there have been 31,000 deaths attributed to COVID-19 in New York state. That was part of the reason I included those last two sentences:

I get the feeling that we may just have to wait until there's a bad outbreak in every corner of the country before this starts to sink in.
Not to sound self-righteous here, but I'm quite proud of upstate New York for being one of the only areas of the country to adopt mask-wearing as the norm before getting hit badly by the pandemic.

[kphoger]

SO you're backing up from "we don't need no government" to ...

When did I say that?

I absolutely believe we need a government.  And the government should pass laws prohibiting people from actively harming others, as well as punish people who do so.

But this isn't that.

[hotdogPi]

I have both the freedom to go to Home Depot, Target, the bank (currently closed for construction), and the grocery store and the freedom to not wear a mask.  There is no either-or situation going on.

There is an either-or situation going on here, because 99% of indoor public places that have reopened have done so with a mandate requiring a face covering while inside.

Only in some states. It's true where I live, but not where kphoger lives.

[Roadgeekteen]

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/tri-state-to-require-visitors-from-covid-hotspots-to-quarantine/2482284/

I wish that the Northeast could shut the border with the south. I don't want people coming from Florida ruining our progress.

[hotdogPi]

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/tri-state-to-require-visitors-from-covid-hotspots-to-quarantine/2482284/

I wish that the Northeast could shut the border with the south. I don't want people coming from Florida ruining our progress.

And what about the people that work across wherever you put the border?

(Looking at the NYTimes map, the border would be somewhere near Richmond, but that doesn't affect my statement above in any way.)

[roadman65]

I went to school for communication and learned how people nowadays get their news from FB and Twitter over traditional sources.   When Whitney Houston died, our teacher wanted to know how we found out about it.  We as a class said we heard it on the internet.

He used that to prove how this day and age no one watches the news not like before and he was not being political either.  He was implying what others on here in another thread about malls and radio being dead these days due to the Skynet.

If doom comes it would probably not be believed unless someone close by gets it as to many the news and social media is like the boy crying wolf lately. 

[roadman65]

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/tri-state-to-require-visitors-from-covid-hotspots-to-quarantine/2482284/

I wish that the Northeast could shut the border with the south. I don't want people coming from Florida ruining our progress.

Then Cuomo needs to stop driving them into the south in his plight to make all of his state blue.  Then the greedy developers here are more than welcome the refugees from New York to buy their condos and homes and add more traffic to a state that has no new roads and needs more road expansions to accommodate Dick Scott's plan to develop for jobs and kill the farms to do it.  He is out but his wrath survives his leaving Tallahassee.

[webny99]

I have both the freedom to go to Home Depot, Target, the bank (currently closed for construction), and the grocery store and the freedom to not wear a mask.  There is no either-or situation going on.

There is an either-or situation going on here, because 99% of indoor public places that have reopened have done so with a mandate requiring a face covering while inside.

Only in some states. It's true where I live, but not where kphoger lives.

Yes, that was my point, but I see where the confusion came in: I was saying "here" in reference to my location, not "here" as in this thread.

Here (in Upstate NY) I do have to wear a mask, but I think it's worth it if places can reopen, and doing it doesn't mean I am against freedom or want the government to always tell me what to do.

[kalvado]

SO you're backing up from "we don't need no government" to ...

When did I say that?

I absolutely believe we need a government.  And the government should pass laws prohibiting people from actively harming others, as well as punish people who do so.

But this isn't that.

Well, so the only difference between us is that you have your own opinion about good and bad things  - you don't deny government right to mandate things?
Think about it in terms of flood, levee, and some idiot who thinks having some water flowing by his home would make a great sight. 
Once we're on the same page, the only question is how much enforcement can be put into the regulation...