Toll Roads Are Bad

[kernals12]

I'm going to argue with the premise specifically in the case of the NJ Turnpike, which, for those of you who don't know, is a completely self-sufficient road that draws no tax money but uses its tolls for maintenance, policing, and construction. Also, it was originally planned that the Turnpike become "added to the state highways"  (in other words, go toll free) when the bonds were paid off, but that never occurred.

Because the NJ Turnpike (and yes, now the Garden State Parkway figures in, but for simplicity in making my case, I'll just refer to the Turnpike) is self-sufficient, the only people who pay for it are the people who use it.
Is that not ideal? NJ taxes are outrageous as they are - if only other public works could be so self-sufficient so as to decrease our tax burden! And, as many are pointing out, it's not just New Jerseyans who are feeling the hit - the out of state drivers are bringing THEIR money into the state and helpfully paying for the Turnpike's maintenance and construction etc etc.

So, I don't know if we can paint that broad a stroke against tolls. I'd love to know the story of the highway robbery on I-95 on the Delaware/Maryland border. You know; the one everyone famously shunpikes using 896 and by sneaking into Elkton? Far as I know, that stretch is as federally funded as any other generic interstate. They'd have to be funding therapeutic puppy camps for disabled children for me to feel anything but disdain for that particular toll!

Doesn't US 1 in New Jersey have massive traffic problems because of people avoiding the Pike's tolls?

i'm assuming the "massive traffic problems" you're referring to are the daily jams for commuter traffic. the Somerset Freeway (original planned routing of I-95 north from the Trenton area to I-287) would've taken the majority of that traffic burden. the Turnpike, on the other hand, is far out of the way for anyone using US 1.

The Somerset Freeway was opposed by the New Jersey Turnpike Authority because it would've offered a toll free competitor to the Jersey Turnpike

Not only is that not true, but please explain how I-295 got built alongside 60 miles of the NJ Turnpike.

All that time we spent on the Turnpike when we were driving to DC to visit my sister and nobody told us there was another road.

[cpzilliacus]

I'm going to add my opinion to the toll road debate. To understand why they're bad we need to remember why we built freeways in the first place. It wasn't just to offer faster travel for motorists, but also to alleviate the through traffic that was bringing noise, congestion, and accidents to many communities. By tolling highways, we encourage people to use surface streets that are more dangerous, more easily congested, and are more of a community nuisance.

Why (state-owned) toll roads are good (privately-owned or privately-leased toll roads
are a different matter):

(1) The users of the toll road (or toll bridge or toll tunnel) pays the capital, maintenance
and operating cost of what is frequently a very expensive collection of infrastructure,
freeing-up tax dollars that can be spent on the "free" road network.  Toll road agencies, even
though they are public-sector operations, usually do not get toll dollars (though there are
some exceptions).

(2) With modern cashless toll collection, it is possible to charge a higher rate when demand
is high, thus eliminating or managing traffic congestion.  As was illustrated above, an
uncongested freeway can carry significantly more traffic than a congested one, and managing
that congestion (or more correctly, the traffic using the toll road) means that the road can run
near its highest-possible capacity.

(3) Most toll-maintained roads and crossings are in better condition than their "free"
counterparts.  This can be especially important in states where winter maintenance is
critical due to snow and ice.

(4) When drivers have a choice between "free" slow and congested roads and a
free-flowing toll road, many of them will choose to drive the toll road. 

(5) The days of states getting 90% of the dollars to construct freeways from the federal
government are over and not likely to return, and toll roads are one good way to get
new roads built.

[jeffandnicole]

I'm going to argue with the premise specifically in the case of the NJ Turnpike, which, for those of you who don't know, is a completely self-sufficient road that draws no tax money but uses its tolls for maintenance, policing, and construction. Also, it was originally planned that the Turnpike become "added to the state highways"  (in other words, go toll free) when the bonds were paid off, but that never occurred.

Because the NJ Turnpike (and yes, now the Garden State Parkway figures in, but for simplicity in making my case, I'll just refer to the Turnpike) is self-sufficient, the only people who pay for it are the people who use it.
Is that not ideal? NJ taxes are outrageous as they are - if only other public works could be so self-sufficient so as to decrease our tax burden! And, as many are pointing out, it's not just New Jerseyans who are feeling the hit - the out of state drivers are bringing THEIR money into the state and helpfully paying for the Turnpike's maintenance and construction etc etc.

So, I don't know if we can paint that broad a stroke against tolls. I'd love to know the story of the highway robbery on I-95 on the Delaware/Maryland border. You know; the one everyone famously shunpikes using 896 and by sneaking into Elkton? Far as I know, that stretch is as federally funded as any other generic interstate. They'd have to be funding therapeutic puppy camps for disabled children for me to feel anything but disdain for that particular toll!

Doesn't US 1 in New Jersey have massive traffic problems because of people avoiding the Pike's tolls?

i'm assuming the "massive traffic problems" you're referring to are the daily jams for commuter traffic. the Somerset Freeway (original planned routing of I-95 north from the Trenton area to I-287) would've taken the majority of that traffic burden. the Turnpike, on the other hand, is far out of the way for anyone using US 1.

The Somerset Freeway was opposed by the New Jersey Turnpike Authority because it would've offered a toll free competitor to the Jersey Turnpike

Not only is that not true, but please explain how I-295 got built alongside 60 miles of the NJ Turnpike.

All that time we spent on the Turnpike when we were driving to DC to visit my sister and nobody told us there was another road.

Maps?

Even looking over and seeing another highway didn't peak your curiosity?

[cpzilliacus]

- Toll agencies can be very profitable.  This leads to many paying above market wages for their employees, to triple featherbeded executive offices, and to diversion of money to boondoggle projects.

People that work in the state toll agency where I live are paid on the same job classification and salary scales as those that work for the state DOT.

As for diversion of toll road dollars to other things, there's always transit, and transit boosters are always eager for transit to get a "fair share" of the toll revenues. 

This happens in states as diverse as New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia and New Jersey (recent details on proposed increased diversion of dollars from the New Jersey Turnpike Authority to New Jersey Transit can be found here).  Though the worst state for borrowing billions of dollars on the bond market and then handing it to transit is probably Pennsylvania, thanks to Act 44 and Act 89.  Those bonds will be paid-off by users of the Pennsylvania Turnpike system of toll roads.

[sprjus4]

(2) With modern cashless toll collection, it is possible to charge a higher rate when demand
is high, thus eliminating or managing traffic congestion.

Thus deferring more traffic to local arterials to bypass the high toll and congesting them further. The freeway may be congestion free, but it makes the situation worse on parallel routes. The whole network needs to be assessed, not just the freeway.

(4) When drivers have a choice between "free" slow and congested roads and a
free-flowing toll road, many of them will choose to drive the toll road.

Not with a high toll. That factor alone is a deterrent and the higher you get, the less opt to pay. It gets to the point where people would rather sit in congestion as opposed to paying a high toll just to save some minutes.

[Rothman]

(5) The days of states getting 90% of the dollars to construct freeways from the federal
government are over and not likely to return, and toll roads are one good way to get
new roads built.

Not sure this is true.  Interstate-specific fund programs are no longer, but 90% is still available through the National Highway Performance Program for interstate highways.  I would think the new interstates in NC are funded in this fashion.

Hm.  I believe Prospect Mountain in NY to convert NY 17 to I-86 utilized NHPP...I can check to see what the % was, but I'm betting 90%.

90% is also available through HSIP, too, but it probably isn't a fund source that would be used for new freeways.

[kernals12]

I'm going to argue with the premise specifically in the case of the NJ Turnpike, which, for those of you who don't know, is a completely self-sufficient road that draws no tax money but uses its tolls for maintenance, policing, and construction. Also, it was originally planned that the Turnpike become "added to the state highways"  (in other words, go toll free) when the bonds were paid off, but that never occurred.

Because the NJ Turnpike (and yes, now the Garden State Parkway figures in, but for simplicity in making my case, I'll just refer to the Turnpike) is self-sufficient, the only people who pay for it are the people who use it.
Is that not ideal? NJ taxes are outrageous as they are - if only other public works could be so self-sufficient so as to decrease our tax burden! And, as many are pointing out, it's not just New Jerseyans who are feeling the hit - the out of state drivers are bringing THEIR money into the state and helpfully paying for the Turnpike's maintenance and construction etc etc.

So, I don't know if we can paint that broad a stroke against tolls. I'd love to know the story of the highway robbery on I-95 on the Delaware/Maryland border. You know; the one everyone famously shunpikes using 896 and by sneaking into Elkton? Far as I know, that stretch is as federally funded as any other generic interstate. They'd have to be funding therapeutic puppy camps for disabled children for me to feel anything but disdain for that particular toll!

Doesn't US 1 in New Jersey have massive traffic problems because of people avoiding the Pike's tolls?

i'm assuming the "massive traffic problems" you're referring to are the daily jams for commuter traffic. the Somerset Freeway (original planned routing of I-95 north from the Trenton area to I-287) would've taken the majority of that traffic burden. the Turnpike, on the other hand, is far out of the way for anyone using US 1.

The Somerset Freeway was opposed by the New Jersey Turnpike Authority because it would've offered a toll free competitor to the Jersey Turnpike

Not only is that not true, but please explain how I-295 got built alongside 60 miles of the NJ Turnpike.

All that time we spent on the Turnpike when we were driving to DC to visit my sister and nobody told us there was another road.

Maps?

Even looking over and seeing another highway didn't peak your curiosity?

I wasn't the one driving, my Mom was.

[In_Correct]

Every Interstate Highway must be tolled, and be funding them selves, rail lines, including adding more tracks, grade separations, (for Rail, and also Americas Interchanges) and the improvements of wider parallel "Shun Pike" roads. Any roads built and upgraded to the Interstate Highway System must also be tolled. The tolls must remain for ever.

Just look at what is happening now to road constructions. There is simply not much happening. It is never going to be as rapid construction as it was. They built many roads, but they left most unfinished.

My favourite roads that I wish to see improved are still not improved, even in urban or suburban areas such as Denton County. They are just now attempting construction of U.S. 377 and it will take at least 10 years to finish. If every Interstate lane in Denton County suddenly be came tolled, some other roads such as U.S. 377 would be congested. But even if The Interstates stay "Free", they will also be congested, and U.S. 377 will also be  congested. So toll them anyways so the roads can be constructed much faster.

With every Interstate tolled, there can be more Ports To Plains Corridors, U.S. 87, U.S. 287, U.S. 81, U.S. 82, U.S. 83, U.S. 84, U.S. 177, U.S. 277, U.S. 377, and U.S. 281, equipped with the features described, and perhaps an extra set of Frontage Roads for out side of the Toll Road Right Of Way so that people can Shun Pike. ... paid for by the Pikes that they Shun.

I do not care how much they cost. I think I will pay for any Toll. It is not like they are charging thousands per month per person. I will gladly pay the tolls that are necessary to be able to enjoy the beautiful roads constructed.

[hotdogPi]

I do not care how much they cost.

It is not like they are charging thousands per month per person.

These two statements contradict each other.

Also, look at the I-95 Richmond to DC debates between Beltway and sprjus4.

$30 * 2 directions * 365/12 days per month * 5/7 weekdays = $1304 per month

[jeffandnicole]

Maps?

Even looking over and seeing another highway didn't peak your curiosity?

I wasn't the one driving, my Mom was.

That makes no sense.  The person driving also shouldn't be looking at a map.  Passengers in the vehicle have plenty of time to look around.

[Rothman]

Maps?

Even looking over and seeing another highway didn't peak your curiosity?

I wasn't the one driving, my Mom was.

That makes no sense.  The person driving also shouldn't be looking at a map.  Passengers in the vehicle have plenty of time to look around.

I disagree.  No mere passenger will tell me where to go.  Just stay out of my way if you see a big paper map driving a car behind you.

[ctkatz]

In most cases, Toll Roads are a means for states to raise revenue from residents of other states.

That's certainly not the case in Kentucky. I don't know the history of the Kentucky Turnpike, or why the first toll road built in the state was between E-town and Louisville instead of another corridor -- say, Lexington to Frankfort to Louisville -- but for the rest of them, they were built to connect far-flung areas of the state.

And to our credit, tolls were removed as the construction bonds were paid off (or when federal appropriations paid off the bonds early) and they didn't keep tolls indefinitely as has been done in most other states.

while it is nice that we did get rid of the tolls on the parkways once the they were paid off, I don't think they designed the interchanges where the tolls were collected very well for an eventual conversion to being free.  especially if many of them were eventually planned on getting added as official federal interstates. there have been a few times the last few years I've been on the wkp I was hoping no one was entering the highway because the acceleration lanes are that short.

people are a little concerned that the orbp bridges are going to stay tolled once they eventually get paid off. I think with our history they'll go free.

[kalvado]

Yes, paying for infrastructure and other taxpayer needs is the point of taxes. It doesn't mean you end up with an unlimited bucket of funds. There is far more cost to building further out in lost land, utility infrastructure, and higher water usage than just more lanes. The environmental cost alone is huge and often hard to mitigate. I don't mind people moving out of the city; I had coworkers in St Louis commute from two hours away (e.g., DuQuoin IL, Rolla, Mark Twain Lake, Fredericktown) to be closer to family and it was the best decision for them. But it is not the government's responsibility to build all the infrastructure wanted, whether multilane highways to everywhere or a subway grid under every major urban street unless the people are willing to tax themselves to provide sufficient funds to afford them. And everybody thinks more of the money should go to their needs, including me. That's human nature.

I suspect many urban people don't realise the scale of utility sprawl they need. NYC, as one close to me: water district starts in Schoharie. 200 miles away from the city. Trash is hauled 300 miles away. Power from Niagara travels about 400 miles. Things are much more rural in smaller cities and suburbs
Water rates may be a good metric - I checked some for big cities - they were eye-watering.
Reliability is another cost factor. Power loss in downtown is a huge deal - elevators stuck,  subway trains not running and people are evacuated from tunnels.
Worst come to worst, I can roll out my generator to keep fridge cold and run to the woods in a backyard if there is no water to flush.
So utility part of this argument is overrated at best.

[1995hoo]

....

Worst come to worst, I can roll out my generator to keep fridge cold and run to the woods in a backyard if there is no water to flush.

....

[kphoger]

I taught my wife to pee outdoors on our camping trip to Colorado a few years ago.  The port-a-potty was at the opposite end of the campground, along a high-clearance dirt road, so we all just walked into the woods any time we needed to do our business.  She had never peed without a toilet before, but now she knows how.

[GaryV]

I taught my wife to pee outdoors on our camping trip to Colorado a few years ago.  The port-a-potty was at the opposite end of the campground, along a high-clearance dirt road, so we all just walked into the woods any time we needed to do our business.  She had never peed without a toilet before, but now she knows how.

Something worthy for her CV.   

[kalvado]

....

Worst come to worst, I can roll out my generator to keep fridge cold and run to the woods in a backyard if there is no water to flush.

....

As a matter of fact, my cats manage to reduce litter consumption almost to zero during warmer months of the year....

[hbelkins]

In most cases, Toll Roads are a means for states to raise revenue from residents of other states.

That's certainly not the case in Kentucky. I don't know the history of the Kentucky Turnpike, or why the first toll road built in the state was between E-town and Louisville instead of another corridor -- say, Lexington to Frankfort to Louisville -- but for the rest of them, they were built to connect far-flung areas of the state.

And to our credit, tolls were removed as the construction bonds were paid off (or when federal appropriations paid off the bonds early) and they didn't keep tolls indefinitely as has been done in most other states.

while it is nice that we did get rid of the tolls on the parkways once the they were paid off, I don't think they designed the interchanges where the tolls were collected very well for an eventual conversion to being free.  especially if many of them were eventually planned on getting added as official federal interstates. there have been a few times the last few years I've been on the wkp I was hoping no one was entering the highway because the acceleration lanes are that short.

people are a little concerned that the orbp bridges are going to stay tolled once they eventually get paid off. I think with our history they'll go free.

They're gradually converting those to diamonds. To my knowledge, only one "toll booth cloverleaf" remains on the WK; at US 431/KY 70 at Central City. The ones at Dawson Springs and Leitchfield have been converted to diamonds.

[cpzilliacus]

(2) With modern cashless toll collection, it is possible to charge a higher rate when demand
is high, thus eliminating or managing traffic congestion.

Thus deferring more traffic to local arterials to bypass the high toll and congesting them further. The freeway may be congestion free, but it makes the situation worse on parallel routes. The whole network needs to be assessed, not just the freeway.

Not always.  A new toll road will remove traffic from nearby congested "free" roads.

(4) When drivers have a choice between "free" slow and congested roads and a
free-flowing toll road, many of them will choose to drive the toll road.

Not with a high toll. That factor alone is a deterrent and the higher you get, the less opt to pay. It gets to the point where people would rather sit in congestion as opposed to paying a high toll just to save some minutes.

Again, not always.  Even Ontario's Highway 407 ETR, which is a nice road but charges remarkably
high tolls, attracts traffic from somewhere, and manages to make its owners a lot of money in the
process.  Virginia's HOV/toll lanes run by concession owner Transurban (in the I-95, I-395 and I-495
corridors) were (at least before the COVID19-related reduction in traffic) attracting plenty of traffic,
and not all of it was HOV-3 (HOV-3 and buses can use all of them at no charge).

Your assertion may be correct in some places but not in others.

[sprjus4]

^

Any new capacity that's tolled will help to some extent, regardless of rates. I'm referring to tolling an existing, free facility, such as the I-95 and I-395 HOV lanes outside of previous rush hours that has only worsened general purpose congestion, and I-66 inside the beltway outside of previous rush hours that has not helped nearby arterial facilities.

[Henry]

It depends on the length of the road. If it's meant to carry local traffic (e.g. I-355), then more drivers will use it. If it's a long-distance route (e.g. Tri-State and Ronald Reagan Memorial Tollways), then chances are, they'll shunpike it.

[skluth]

It depends on the length of the road. If it's meant to carry local traffic (e.g. I-355), then more drivers will use it. If it's a long-distance route (e.g. Tri-State and Ronald Reagan Memorial Tollways), then chances are, they'll shunpike it.

The RR isn't a fair comparison, because the I-80 is the main line for most long-distance travelers. It's easier to say long-distance travelers will shunpike the Tri-State than actually do it. I used to travel a lot between St Louis and Green Bay. Even shunpiking the Tri-State by using I-39/I-43 meant I still hit a toll between Rockford and South Beloit on the Northwest/Addams. The main reason to shunpike the Tri-State is the congestion. The best thing about most toll roads is traffic usually flows much smoother even around cities because of the limited junctions. Drivers don't get that on the Tri-State.

I'd say a lot more long distance drivers drive the Will Rogers or Turner Turnpikes in Oklahoma than shunpike it, especially if you are going west from OKC. There's no easy way to shunpike the West Virginia Turnpike. Trust me; I've tried. It's also pretty difficult to get anywhere long distance south or west from Philly; sure, you can take US 202/ US 30/ PA 283 or PA 309/ I-78 to Harrisburg and then US 22 to I-80 to shunpike, but is it really worth the hassle?

[skluth]

I wasn't the one driving, my Mom was.

Good reason not to argue.