Shreveport, Louisiana has the most dangerous onramp I've ever seen

[jakeroot]

Similar drawing for the Traffic St/I-20 ramp:

[bwana39]

Jakeroot,

Good job!

[index]

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.986689,-81.9611949,3a,90y,309.65h,65.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D17.857975%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Does this count as an example of what we've been talking about with bad on-ramps? This one is literally right up against 585. As soon as you turn you're on the freeway.

[jakeroot]

Jakeroot,

Good job!

Thanks. We seem to be the only ones here who understand why this intersection is completely normal.

[jakeroot]

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.986689,-81.9611949,3a,90y,309.65h,65.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D17.857975%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Does this count as an example of what we've been talking about with bad on-ramps? This one is literally right up against 585.

Well, since this thread has decided that 'bad on-ramp' means 'anything with a slip lane and without a signal', I guess so.

In reality? That's a regular left turn. It's not bad or even unusual.

For everyone else: please think critically about what you are posting. All of you are sharing regular left turns that are not at all remarkable or unique. The angle of an intersection does not make it unusual. Not everything is a right angle.

[debragga]

Here's one: https://google.com/maps/@32.6320492,-96.4527089,3a,42.1y,303.38h,85.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVlY9KW1ULaMVXg8xRSjzOA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Eastbound frontage road traffic yields to westbound traffic entering the ramp. This is normal in rural areas of Texas but this intersection has enough traffic to be dangerous.

[jeffandnicole]

Really not understanding some of the issues above.

I'll nominate this, although there's probably a good dozen I could easily use.

I-295 at Exit 15 in NJ:  https://goo.gl/maps/wigmYxk1YCKemF4W9
I-295 is 65 mph.  Tomlin Station Road is 50 mph.

No turn lanes on Tomlin Station Road.  Meaningless porkchops on the ramp.  Stop sign forever missing.  Sight distances less than respectable.  https://goo.gl/maps/uQkD8ckEC6yMkDfB9

15 mph hard right turn off the 65 mph roadway; only advisory sign located right at the gore.  https://goo.gl/maps/XApdCkVmDKA8qPN6A

No median separation on the ramp.  https://goo.gl/maps/niRowXCZnBqugQBv9

And this is the *improved* version of the interchange!

Exit 16B has more of the same:
Overview of the interchange, including a driveway on the ramp: https://goo.gl/maps/tT6prBn44pcBBN149
One of the ramps, with even worse porkchops: https://goo.gl/maps/oByFcW5PTjFQJJTw7

Again, improved from about 15 years ago!

[US 89]

Here are two images: your intersection, and one near me, and I've marked them using MS Paint to show how they operate exactly the same: traffic turning left yields to oncoming traffic, but the slip lane must yield to all traffic, regardless of where it originates. This is standard operation for all slip lanes across the country, with some exception in places like Illinois, where they are often signalized.

That's not how the Georgia example I posted above works. Traffic turning left into the freeway on-ramp there has the right of way over oncoming traffic, which is given a stop sign.

[jakeroot]

That's not how the Georgia example I posted above works. Traffic turning left into the freeway on-ramp there has the right of way over oncoming traffic, which is given a stop sign.

It's not how a number of the posted examples work. I was responding specifically to the OP and his Shreveport on-ramp, which is nothing more than a regular left turn with a right-turn bypass lane. There is zero evidence to support his assertion that it is somehow 'dangerous'.

As to yours and other examples posted which largely involve frontage roads: again, not unusual, bad, or even dangerous. Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.

[webny99]

Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.

... but to someone from an area with very few frontage roads, basically no two way frontage roads, and certainly no two-way frontage roads where the left turns get priority (in other words, the entire Northeast and Midwest), that seems dangerous because it's so different and so counter-intuitive, even if it's perfectly safe in practice in places where it's the norm.

[kphoger]

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.986689,-81.9611949,3a,90y,309.65h,65.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D17.857975%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Does this count as an example of what we've been talking about with bad on-ramps? This one is literally right up against 585.

Well, since this thread has decided that 'bad on-ramp' means 'anything with a slip lane and without a signal', I guess so.

In reality? That's a regular left turn. It's not bad or even unusual.

For everyone else: please think critically about what you are posting. All of you are sharing regular left turns that are not at all remarkable or unique. The angle of an intersection does not make it unusual. Not everything is a right angle.

Here's a better vantage point;  look at the entering vehicle.  It's also basically a U-turn onto the highway.

But yeah, the OP is functionally no different than this one.  Heck, my example doesn't even have a Yield sign.  Pretty unremarkable.

[jakeroot]

Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.

... but to someone from an area with very few frontage roads, basically no two way frontage roads, and certainly no two-way frontage roads where the left turns get priority (in other words, the entire Northeast and Midwest), that seems dangerous because it's so different and so counter-intuitive, even if it's perfectly safe in practice in places where it's the norm.

I need you to be a little clearer what you find "dangerous". Left turns with priority over oncoming traffic is an exceptionally common feature along frontage roads (simply because you or I don't see it every day does not make it dangerous), and especially along one-way systems in towns and city centers (example here in rural WA). The angle of these turns is not unusual (many roads meet at weird angles), and the existence of a right turn bypass lane (ostensibly the main issue with the OP) is, again, not unusual, and certainly not dangerous.

[jakeroot]

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.986689,-81.9611949,3a,90y,309.65h,65.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D17.857975%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Does this count as an example of what we've been talking about with bad on-ramps? This one is literally right up against 585.

Well, since this thread has decided that 'bad on-ramp' means 'anything with a slip lane and without a signal', I guess so.

In reality? That's a regular left turn. It's not bad or even unusual.

For everyone else: please think critically about what you are posting. All of you are sharing regular left turns that are not at all remarkable or unique. The angle of an intersection does not make it unusual. Not everything is a right angle.

Here's a better vantage point;  look at the entering vehicle.  It's also basically a U-turn onto the highway.

But yeah, the OP is functionally no different than this one.  Heck, my example doesn't even have a Yield sign.  Pretty unremarkable.

I think the key words in your post are "functionally no different". People here are being weirded out by these things because of their angle. That doesn't make them dangerous.

That on-ramp in Spartanburg is literally just an on-ramp from a side road. I didn't realize we lived in this SimCity world where everything has to meet at right angles to not be considered dangerous.

[webny99]

Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.

... but to someone from an area with very few frontage roads, basically no two way frontage roads, and certainly no two-way frontage roads where the left turns get priority (in other words, the entire Northeast and Midwest), that seems dangerous because it's so different and so counter-intuitive, even if it's perfectly safe in practice in places where it's the norm.

I need you to be a little clearer what you find "dangerous". ...

If something is unexpected to a driver, then it's more likely to create a dangerous situation. It would be unwise to dump a bunch of drivers from the Northeast into a situation, like the OP and other examples, where left-turning traffic has the right of way: it would be a recipe for mass confusion, road rage, and accidents. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just not what we're used to. That doesn't mean it's dangerous to the people who use it on their commute, they're just used to how it works.

Your rural WA example is a little different because it's clear that the through route makes a 90 degree turn, and the dashed lines through the intersection help reinforce the visual cue that no stop is necessary. Great signage, too!

[kphoger]

FWIW, here's my favorite.

If something is unexpected to a driver, then it's more likely to create a dangerous situation. It would be unwise to dump a bunch of drivers from the Northeast into a situation, like the OP and other examples, where left-turning traffic has the right of way: it would be a recipe for mass confusion, road rage, and accidents. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just not what we're used to. That doesn't mean it's dangerous to the people who use it on their commute, they're just used to how it works.

If something is unexpected to a driver, then it's potentially likely to create a dangerous situation.  Actual danger, however, is measured in crashes.  If there are no actual crashes, then there is no actual danger.

Would you be confused by this on-ramp here in Wichita, which I use all the time?  Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.

Or how about this on-ramp over there in Rochester?  Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.

Or this other on-ramp in Rochester?  Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.

[webny99]

Would you be confused by this on-ramp here in Wichita, which I use all the time?  Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.

Or how about this on-ramp over there in Rochester?  Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.

Or this other on-ramp in Rochester?  Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.

Whoa! My bad for not being more clear. I have no issue with right-turning traffic yielding to left-turning traffic. That happens all the time with slip ramps.
My issue is with traffic proceeding straight having to yield, or to a lesser extent, stop, for left-turning traffic, as seen here, for example (intersection was linked to upthread by debragga).

[kphoger]

My issue is with traffic proceeding straight having to yield, or to a lesser extent, stop, for left-turning traffic, as seen here, for example (intersection was linked to upthread by debragga).

Then your assertion must be that every frontage road in the entire state of Texas is "a recipe for mass confusion, road rage, and accidents".  Considering how many out-of-state drivers use Texas highways every day, I doubt that's true.

It is a state law that traffic continuing on any frontage road must yield to all exiting and entering traffic.

Title 7.  Vehicles and Traffic

Subtitle C.  Rules of the Road

Chapter 545.  Operation and Movement of Vehicles

Subchapter D.  Right-of-way

§ 545.154.  Vehicle Entering or Leaving Limited-access or Controlled-access Highway

An operator on an access or feeder road of a limited-access or controlled-access highway shall yield the right-of-way to a vehicle entering or about to enter the access or feeder road from the highway or leaving or about to leave the access or feeder road to enter the highway.

[jakeroot]

If something is unexpected to a driver, then it's more likely to create a dangerous situation

Yeah, no kidding. That doesn't make these situations actually dangerous. The frontage road ramps may be unfamiliar to you, and those around you, but there is nothing inherently dangerous about their designs. Straight-through traffic having to stop for a major movement is not unusual. I linked to one example in WA; here's another in LA that was recently signalized.

Sometimes, when left turning traffic is busy, the intersection is signalized and a protected/permissive signal is installed. When this isn't practical (frontage roads especially), often times the through traffic has reduced priority and must give way to oncoming left turns. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how common this is, because it isn't that common, but just because it isn't common doesn't mean it's dangerous.

Your line of logic could be used to assert that DDIs are dangerous anywhere they are not common. After all, how could an unfamiliar and uncommon interchange design that requires you to drive on the left be anything but a sea of collisions?!?! In reality, of course, drivers are able to interpret each intersection based on signs and markings. Simply because the overall layout isn't common doesn't make it dangerous.

[webny99]

My issue is with traffic proceeding straight having to yield, or to a lesser extent, stop, for left-turning traffic, as seen here, for example (intersection was linked to upthread by debragga).

Then your assertion must be that every frontage road in the entire state of Texas is "a recipe for mass confusion, road rage, and accidents".  Considering how many out-of-state drivers use Texas highways every day, I doubt that's true.

In a hypothetical situation in which all, or at least a majority, of the drivers using the intersection were from the Northeast, it absolutely would be.
Most out-of-state drivers in Texas are probably from neighboring states in the South and West where similar setups exist, and those that aren't are such a minority that they should be able to figure it out from watching everyone else.

It is a state law that traffic continuing on any frontage road must yield to all exiting and entering traffic.
[quote snipped]

Mind blown. To me that seems completely backwards, and I guarantee you everyone from much of the rest of the country would say the same thing.

[kphoger]

That Texas state law is why, for example, these Yield signs make total sense.  Traffic facing them is already bound by state law to yield to exiting traffic.  Legally, in fact, those signs are unnecessary:  there's no legal difference between that location and this one nearby without signs.

[webny99]

Your line of logic could be used to assert that DDIs are dangerous anywhere they are not common. After all, how could an unfamiliar and uncommon interchange design that requires you to drive on the left be anything but a sea of collisions?!?! In reality, of course, drivers are able to interpret each intersection based on signs and markings. Simply because the overall layout isn't common doesn't make it dangerous.

I don't think that's my line of logic at all.

We have plenty of slip ramps just like the ones in Texas. Everything about the situation, the intersection, the pavement markings, is identical, the only difference is who yields to whom. That's a subtlety you may not pick up on right away - or at all! There's nothing subtle at all about a DDI, on the other hand. Everything about it screams "I'm weird! Pay attention!"

[kphoger]

It is a state law that traffic continuing on any frontage road must yield to all exiting and entering traffic.
[quote snipped]

Mind blown. To me that seems completely backwards, and I guarantee you everyone from much of the rest of the country would say the same thing.

And see, to me it makes perfect sense, for two reasons:

1.  Much better to require someone to yield who's going 40 mph on a local road than someone who's going 70 mph on a freeway.

2.  If traffic backs up, much better for the tailback to be on local roads than a freeway mainline.

[MikieTimT]

I never go through this intersection without wishing for a traffic light or some sort of Texas-like yield for left turning onto the on-ramp of the Fulbright Expressway as it's always stacked up with left-turning traffic here.  This intersection also has the distinction of dumping onto it right where the off-ramp for northbound I-49 is also having to weave in and slow down as you're trying to speed up and jump out of the lane if you're actually intending to go on southbound I-49, which is almost always the case for me.

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1131863,-94.1605969,3a,75y,250.04h,95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDFW7sx4XbqgJoMj7g0gPbQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[jeffandnicole]

Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.

... but to someone from an area with very few frontage roads, basically no two way frontage roads, and certainly no two-way frontage roads where the left turns get priority (in other words, the entire Northeast and Midwest), that seems dangerous because it's so different and so counter-intuitive, even if it's perfectly safe in practice in places where it's the norm.

I think the Northeast is vastly different in so many ways compared to the rest of the country.  In most areas of the country, it seems like protected and/or permissive left arrows are very standard.  I almost feel like these people would get so irritated in the northeast where there are a ton of traffic lights without arrows.  Or, just how fast and crowded our highways really are in the northeast.  A 70 mph road in the south is only 5 mph faster than a 65 mph road in the north, but guaranteed the amount of traffic on that 65 mph roadway is considerably more than the 70 mph zones down south.  It drives me crazy in North Carolina where there are significant areas of 65 mph highway on I-95 that are quite empty, but it must meet some sort of threshold down there that causes that limit to be 65.  Compare that to some areas of the Garden State Parkway where the limit is 65, the 85th percentile speed in free flowing traffic is over 80, and the average gap between vehicles is well under 1 second or 3 car lengths.

That Texas state law is why, for example, these Yield signs make total sense.  Traffic facing them is already bound by state law to yield to exiting traffic.  Legally, in fact, those signs are unnecessary:  there's no legal difference between that location and this one nearby without signs.

Actually, I see a huge difference.  In the first example, there's no merge lane.  In the second example, not only is there a lane for those exiting the highway, there's a double white lane to prohibit traffic from exiting that lane for a bit, and then the lane becomes permanent to make the access road 3 lanes wide.  By the time the 3rd lane allows for movement outside the lane, it's well beyond the area that would be considered an exit onto the feeder road.

[jakeroot]

Your line of logic could be used to assert that DDIs are dangerous anywhere they are not common. After all, how could an unfamiliar and uncommon interchange design that requires you to drive on the left be anything but a sea of collisions?!?! In reality, of course, drivers are able to interpret each intersection based on signs and markings. Simply because the overall layout isn't common doesn't make it dangerous.

I don't think that's my line of logic at all.

We have plenty of slip ramps just like the ones in Texas. Everything about the situation, the intersection, the pavement markings, is identical, the only difference is who yields to whom. That's a subtlety you may not pick up on right away - or at all! There's nothing subtle at all about a DDI, on the other hand. Everything about it screams "I'm weird! Pay attention!"

But there are millions of intersections all across the country where "who yields to whom" is not immediately clear. States vary in how they sign and mark intersections. This does not make them dangerous.

Your implication seems to be that left turns having priority is dangerous, simply because that's not how the standard on-ramp works. That is ridiculously unfair.