Unnecessary highways

[Max Rockatansky]

i-69 from memphis to the texas state line is a completely useless boondoggle. it only exists so indiana and texas could get their portions.

I get Texas but with I-69 already existing in Indiana, did it really need to be designated in Tennessee and Mississippi in order to build the Indy-Evansville section?

No, it didn't need to be designated farther south, but for some reason this needed a political push in the 80s to get going, and the other states were needed.  The funding has changed since then from some federally spent on roads to mostly state spent.  Honestly, with what I have heard about traffic volumes on I-30 and I-40 in Arkansas, if I-69 were built it could help out significantly, but even if they started today to physically build it at full speed, you wouldn't see it completed for 15 years (again-at completely full speed).  It may be our country's 300th birthday until it gets done, or even half way completed, and they'll need help to get at that pace.

How is I-69 going to cut the traffic issues?  Who is going to use it to go around the world in lieu of using the existing roadways?  Why build I-69 if we already have interstates serving the corridor anyway?

In other words...Pork?

[dkblake]

Looking back through this thread, I'm mildly surprised nobody has mentioned the Akron Innerbelt.

That one is definitely a white elephant:  IIRC, it took nearly 10-15 years to (partially) direct connect it with I-76/77 to the south after the Innerbelt opened.  And now the original northern end is being taken out if it hasn't already. 

Like nearby Youngstown, both cities started building downtown-centered freeways just after their main industries peaked (Akron: Tires, Y-Town: Steel) and were completed not too long before both industries collapsed when the factories were closed and/or relocated elsewhere.  Both cities wound up with stub freeways that were never fully completed as a result.

Had the Innerbelt actually connected I-76/77 and SR-8, it may not have suffered the fate that it now has (especially with the recent rebuilds of the Central Interchange and the freeways just to the north and west of it) and could've been a much more useful thoroughfare.

God, the Akron Innerbelt. I commuted to a job in Akron for a year and would get off at the Main St. Exit on 76 rather than the Innerbelt. More convenient, and too creepy to drive on a basically abandoned highway during regular commuting hours.

[mgk920]

What are everyones' thoughts about I-15 between Idaho Falls, ID and Butte, MT?  Like with I-70 through the 'Swell' in Utah and I-95 in northern Maine, it opened as a Super Two on a four lane ROW, later upgraded to a full four lanes.  IIRC, it still boasts the lowest or near lowest AADT of all 2DIs.

Me?  IMHO, It would likely be much busier if the border checkpoints were no longer there at Sweetgrass, MT/Coutts, AB as there are a couple of very sizable metro areas (Calgary and Edmonton, AB) directly in line beyond its north end.

Mike

[FrCorySticha]

What are everyones' thoughts about I-15 between Idaho Falls, ID and Butte, MT?  Like with I-70 through the 'Swell' in Utah and I-95 in northern Maine, it opened as a Super Two on a four lane ROW, later upgraded to a full four lanes.  IIRC, it still boasts the lowest or near lowest AADT of all 2DIs.

There are a number of stretches of I-15 that could have remained Super 2 with regular passing sections. It's been a while since I've been south of Butte, but north of US 2 at Shelby is pretty empty usually and would be fine as a Super 2.

Me?  IMHO, It would likely be much busier if the border checkpoints were no longer there at Sweetgrass, MT/Coutts, AB as there are a couple of very sizable metro areas (Calgary and Edmonton, AB) directly in line beyond its north end.

Mike

Do you mean if there were no border controls between the two countries? The border controls really aren't a restriction, at least for freight traffic, and aren't a burden on the average tourist. I'd love to see an open border between the US and Canada like in Europe, but likely won't happen any time soon due to politics and love of import tax money in both countries.

I live in a town right off I-15 near Great Falls, MT, and a sizeable percentage of the trucks that pass through here are Canadian registered. It's a pretty important corridor for freight between Calgary and Edmonton, and Salt Lake City, Los Vegas, and southern California cities. In normal years, there are lots of Canadian cars as well.

[kenarmy]

US 90 from Mobile to Pensacola. 98 and I-10/I-110 are way faster and the dip in Pensacola is pretty much useless. It should just follow Alternate 90.

[US 89]

What are everyones' thoughts about I-15 between Idaho Falls, ID and Butte, MT?  Like with I-70 through the 'Swell' in Utah and I-95 in northern Maine, it opened as a Super Two on a four lane ROW, later upgraded to a full four lanes.  IIRC, it still boasts the lowest or near lowest AADT of all 2DIs.

There are a number of stretches of I-15 that could have remained Super 2 with regular passing sections. It's been a while since I've been south of Butte, but north of US 2 at Shelby is pretty empty usually and would be fine as a Super 2.

In my experience coming up to Montana from Salt Lake, traffic does drop off a bit at Idaho Falls but there is still enough traffic - especially trucks - to keep it four lanes at least to I-90. I've never been north of Butte so I don't know how that compares to the rest of 15.

[kphoger]

What are everyones' thoughts about I-15 between Idaho Falls, ID and Butte, MT?  Like with I-70 through the 'Swell' in Utah and I-95 in northern Maine, it opened as a Super Two on a four lane ROW, later upgraded to a full four lanes.  IIRC, it still boasts the lowest or near lowest AADT of all 2DIs.

There are a number of stretches of I-15 that could have remained Super 2 with regular passing sections. It's been a while since I've been south of Butte, but north of US 2 at Shelby is pretty empty usually and would be fine as a Super 2.

In my experience coming up to Montana from Salt Lake, traffic does drop off a bit at Idaho Falls but there is still enough traffic - especially trucks - to keep it four lanes at least to I-90. I've never been north of Butte so I don't know how that compares to the rest of 15.

I just checked the traffic counts (2018) [.pdf warning] at Lima (MT) to get an idea of how true that is by the numbers.  (I used 2018 rather than 2019, because the count site was in operation 10 months that year, rather than just the 7 it was open in 2019.)

AADT is only 3131 at that location, but roughly one-third of it is trucks.

[ftballfan]

What are everyones' thoughts about I-15 between Idaho Falls, ID and Butte, MT?  Like with I-70 through the 'Swell' in Utah and I-95 in northern Maine, it opened as a Super Two on a four lane ROW, later upgraded to a full four lanes.  IIRC, it still boasts the lowest or near lowest AADT of all 2DIs.

There are a number of stretches of I-15 that could have remained Super 2 with regular passing sections. It's been a while since I've been south of Butte, but north of US 2 at Shelby is pretty empty usually and would be fine as a Super 2.

Me?  IMHO, It would likely be much busier if the border checkpoints were no longer there at Sweetgrass, MT/Coutts, AB as there are a couple of very sizable metro areas (Calgary and Edmonton, AB) directly in line beyond its north end.

Mike

Do you mean if there were no border controls between the two countries? The border controls really aren't a restriction, at least for freight traffic, and aren't a burden on the average tourist. I'd love to see an open border between the US and Canada like in Europe, but likely won't happen any time soon due to politics and love of import tax money in both countries.

I live in a town right off I-15 near Great Falls, MT, and a sizeable percentage of the trucks that pass through here are Canadian registered. It's a pretty important corridor for freight between Calgary and Edmonton, and Salt Lake City, Los Vegas, and southern California cities. In normal years, there are lots of Canadian cars as well.

Also, I think the fastest way for trucks from Calgary to the big eastern Canadian cities involves dropping into the States at Sweetgrass/Coutts and re-entering Canada at Port Huron/Sarnia as large portions of the TCH, especially in northern Ontario, are still two lanes AFAIK

[Scott5114]

Who is going to use it to go around the world in lieu of using the existing roadways?

Nobody's going to use it to go around the world, it doesn't even leave the United States!

[I-39]

How about that rule in some states that county seats should be connected with 4 lane highways regardless of size?

We got that one here in Tennessee! 

Yes and it is getting worse.  US 412 is four lanes from Hohenwald to the Maury County line now.  US 70S is four lanes from Murfreesboro to Woodbury.  Then it is four lanes from Woodbury to McMinnville.  Why?

And yet, badly needed upgrades such as US 31 between Franklin and Spring Hill and SR 96 between Franklin and Murfreesboro continue to remain mostly two lanes, though they just broke ground on widening a section of the latter.

[I-39]

Some examples of unnecessary/overbuilt highways I can think of.

Illinois:

1. I-180
2. I-172/IL-336
3. US 51 south of Decatur

Wisconsin:

1. WIS 26 between Janesville and Watertown
2. US 10 Marshfield spur (and arguably, the entirety of US 10 between Appleton and Steven's Point)
3. US 141 north of Abrams
4. US 51 north of Wausau
5. WIS 23 between Sheboygan and Fond du Lac (should have been 5 lane undivided road)

Multi-state:

1. The entire I-69 corridor between Indianapolis and Mexico. Huge waste of time and resources. It will never be completed entirely and it is super redundant to existing Interstates. Shame it went forward.

[thspfc]

Wisconsin:

1. WIS 26 between Janesville and Watertown
2. US 10 Marshfield spur (and arguably, the entirety of US 10 between Appleton and Steven's Point)
3. US 141 north of Abrams
4. US 51 north of Wausau
5. WIS 23 between Sheboygan and Fond du Lac (should have been 5 lane undivided road)

1. Ever driven it?
2. Not sure, maybe it is overbuilt
3. Ever driven it?
4. Ever driven it? Especially in the summer?

[I-39]

Wisconsin:

1. WIS 26 between Janesville and Watertown
2. US 10 Marshfield spur (and arguably, the entirety of US 10 between Appleton and Steven's Point)
3. US 141 north of Abrams
4. US 51 north of Wausau
5. WIS 23 between Sheboygan and Fond du Lac (should have been 5 lane undivided road)

1. Ever driven it?
2. Not sure, maybe it is overbuilt
3. Ever driven it?
4. Ever driven it? Especially in the summer?

1. Should've been 5 lane undivided, freeway was total overkill
2. It most certainly is
3. Passing lanes would've been sufficient here
4. Passing lanes would've been sufficient here

[mgk920]

Wisconsin:

1. WIS 26 between Janesville and Watertown
2. US 10 Marshfield spur (and arguably, the entirety of US 10 between Appleton and Steven’s Point)
3. US 141 north of Abrams
4. US 51 north of Wausau
5. WIS 23 between Sheboygan and Fond du Lac (should have been 5 lane undivided road)

1. Ever driven it?
2. Not sure, maybe it is overbuilt
3. Ever driven it?
4. Ever driven it? Especially in the summer?

1. Should’ve been 5 lane undivided, freeway was total overkill
2. It most certainly is
3. Passing lanes would’ve been sufficient here
4. Passing lanes would’ve been sufficient here

1 - It needed that upgrade - WI 26 is a Chicagoland bypass route for traffic to and from the northeast part of the state and carries a high percentage of big-rig trucks.

2 - US 10 between Appleton and Stevens Point needed that upgrade, including a full freeway to end at I-39 (Grrrr Stevens Point NIMBYs...).  Its traffic level well warrants its four lanes and in fact, I can easily foresee the part that is combined with US 45 being upgraded to six lanes within my lifetime.

3 - US 141 needed that upgrade and WisDOT was very wise to include that four lane pavement stub just north of WI 64.  I can also easily foresee US 41/141 between the Abrams Interchange (US 41/141 split) and the I-41/43 Howard Interchange being upgraded to six lanes.

4 - US 51 is a major tourist route as far north as the Lakeland area.  Solid traffic in the prevailing direction every weekend during warm weather.

5 - The locals would dispute your opinion on WI 23, as do I.

Mike

[Crown Victoria]

1. The entire I-69 corridor between Indianapolis and Mexico. Huge waste of time and resources. It will never be completed entirely and it is super redundant to existing Interstates. Shame it went forward.

Most of us would agree that the stretch of I-69 between Tenaha and Memphis would fit this description. However other sections have their merits, which shows when you look at which states are building their portion of I-69 (Texas, Kentucky, Indiana) and which (except for a couple short exceptions) aren't (Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee).

[seicer]

Tennessee is actively building significant portions of Interstate 69, but progress is slow because of how their financing model works.

[I-39]

Wisconsin:

1. WIS 26 between Janesville and Watertown
2. US 10 Marshfield spur (and arguably, the entirety of US 10 between Appleton and Steven's Point)
3. US 141 north of Abrams
4. US 51 north of Wausau
5. WIS 23 between Sheboygan and Fond du Lac (should have been 5 lane undivided road)

1. Ever driven it?
2. Not sure, maybe it is overbuilt
3. Ever driven it?
4. Ever driven it? Especially in the summer?

1. Should've been 5 lane undivided, freeway was total overkill
2. It most certainly is
3. Passing lanes would've been sufficient here
4. Passing lanes would've been sufficient here

1 - It needed that upgrade - WI 26 is a Chicagoland bypass route for traffic to and from the northeast part of the state and carries a high percentage of big-rig trucks.

2 - US 10 between Appleton and Stevens Point needed that upgrade, including a full freeway to end at I-39 (Grrrr Stevens Point NIMBYs...).  Its traffic level well warrants its four lanes and in fact, I can easily foresee the part that is combined with US 45 being upgraded to six lanes within my lifetime.

3 - US 141 needed that upgrade and WisDOT was very wise to include that four lane pavement stub just north of WI 64.  I can also easily foresee US 41/141 between the Abrams Interchange (US 41/141 split) and the I-41/43 Howard Interchange being upgraded to six lanes.

4 - US 51 is a major tourist route as far north as the Lakeland area.  Solid traffic in the prevailing direction every weekend during warm weather.

5 - The locals would dispute your opinion on WI 23, as do I.

Mike

1. It's still primarily local traffic. You already have both I-43 and US 151 that serve effectively the same purpose. Plus, they didn't even finish and put a freeway to freeway connection at I-39/90 or I-94. A reconstructed 5 lanes undivided WIS 26 would have been fine.

2. I'll give you US 10 between Appleton and Steven's Point, but the Marshfield spur was not necessary.

3. Other than some summer weekends, it doesn't get super busy here. Passing lanes would have been sufficient

4. See the above answer.

5. This is a local traffic route. I'm not disputing it should be upgraded, but it can do with a 5 lane undivided highway and not an elaborate freeway/expressway grade highway.

WisDOT needs to stop getting so gung ho about making every major corridor an elaborate freeway/expressway grade roadway. It costs more money to build and maintain, and their maintenance costs are going to go through the roof in the future maintaining all these highway structures.

Meanwhile, they've largely neglected their Interstates and local roads as well as any sort of alternative transportation methods.

[I-39]

1. The entire I-69 corridor between Indianapolis and Mexico. Huge waste of time and resources. It will never be completed entirely and it is super redundant to existing Interstates. Shame it went forward.

Most of us would agree that the stretch of I-69 between Tenaha and Memphis would fit this description. However other sections have their merits, which shows when you look at which states are building their portion of I-69 (Texas, Kentucky, Indiana) and which (except for a couple short exceptions) aren't (Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee).

What purpose does I-69 serve between Indianapolis and Memphis that existing Interstates couldn't handle?

[US 89]

1. The entire I-69 corridor between Indianapolis and Mexico. Huge waste of time and resources. It will never be completed entirely and it is super redundant to existing Interstates. Shame it went forward.

Most of us would agree that the stretch of I-69 between Tenaha and Memphis would fit this description. However other sections have their merits, which shows when you look at which states are building their portion of I-69 (Texas, Kentucky, Indiana) and which (except for a couple short exceptions) aren't (Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee).

What purpose does I-69 serve between Indianapolis and Memphis that existing Interstates couldn't handle?

It's more direct than I-70/57/55 and eliminates both Mississippi River crossings. Plus it directly serves Evansville - I-64 comes close but misses it to the north.

Obviously the KY/TN portions are less necessary, but as mentioned above that is why they haven't been built yet. Indianapolis-Evansville likely has a lot of traffic that justified an upgrade, otherwise Indiana wouldn't have been so quick to upgrade that portion of IN 37.

[silverback1065]

1. The entire I-69 corridor between Indianapolis and Mexico. Huge waste of time and resources. It will never be completed entirely and it is super redundant to existing Interstates. Shame it went forward.

Most of us would agree that the stretch of I-69 between Tenaha and Memphis would fit this description. However other sections have their merits, which shows when you look at which states are building their portion of I-69 (Texas, Kentucky, Indiana) and which (except for a couple short exceptions) aren't (Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee).

What purpose does I-69 serve between Indianapolis and Memphis that existing Interstates couldn't handle?

building i-69 from indy to eville fills a glaring gap in freeway coverage, i find it crazy that a highway was never built there until now. not even a us highway. anything south of memphis is a waste of time and money. the texas portions are meh.

[silverback1065]

i-880 in iowa. why was this built exactly?

[thenetwork]

i-880 in iowa. why was this built exactly?

If you are coming from Sioux Falls/Sioux City down I-29 and are looking to head east on I-80, it avoids going down to Council Bluffs and saves a few dozen miles.  I used it in 1992 coming from Montana to Ohio in a U-haul with a car trailer in the I-680 days.  Helped keep me away from the bulk of the Chicago Tollways.

[SkyPesos]

I'll go out on a wimp and mention both I-180 in IL and WY.

i-880 in iowa. why was this built exactly?

Think it's built as part part of the I-29 detour route for when I-29 gets flooded by the Missouri River in Council Bluffs. As a long distance bypass, the one use has been mentioned above, but that's pretty much it. I can think of much more for NE-2, which is part of the fastest route from cities on the I-64 and I-70 corridors in the Midwest to Salt Lake City, San Francisco and Portland (thanks I-70 in Utah for going in the opposite direction). St Louis to Salt Lake City on I-70/I-29/NE-2/I-80 beats out I-70/I-25/I-80 by about half an hour. This goes into fictional territory, but if I-880 is an interstate, NE-2 can be signed as I-829, with the 8 first digit representing 80.

[hbelkins]

1. The entire I-69 corridor between Indianapolis and Mexico. Huge waste of time and resources. It will never be completed entirely and it is super redundant to existing Interstates. Shame it went forward.

Most of us would agree that the stretch of I-69 between Tenaha and Memphis would fit this description. However other sections have their merits, which shows when you look at which states are building their portion of I-69 (Texas, Kentucky, Indiana) and which (except for a couple short exceptions) aren't (Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee).

What purpose does I-69 serve between Indianapolis and Memphis that existing Interstates couldn't handle?

Bypasses Louisville and Nashville.

[ilpt4u]

What purpose does I-69 serve between Indianapolis and Memphis that existing Interstates couldn't handle?

Bypasses Louisville and Nashville.

So does the Indy<->Memphis route of I-70<->I-57<->I-55

Heck, forget the West Tennessee upgrades, and just build I-69 New Terrain between I-24 at Paducah and I-57 near Cairo, IL or Charleston, MO