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Service Plazas on non-toll highways

Started by Roadgeekteen, June 29, 2021, 08:53:16 PM

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hotdogPi

Clinched

Traveled, plus
US 13, 50
MA 22, 35, 40, 53, 79, 107, 109, 126, 138, 141, 159
NH 27, 78, 111A(E); CA 90; NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A, 7; CT 32, 320; VT 2A, 5A; PA 3, 51, 60, WA 202; QC 162, 165, 263; 🇬🇧A100, A3211, A3213, A3215, A4222; 🇫🇷95 D316

Lowest untraveled: 36


HighwayStar

Quote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 03:36:11 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 03:21:32 PM
"Gouging" is not a real thing. It is to economics what perpetual motion is to physics.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sun+Gas/@28.4654136,-81.3114621,16.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88e7636cc9ab7bb1:0x8438c406007b30a!8m2!3d28.4656543!4d-81.3106835

And let us see why prices might be higher at Sun Gas?
Well, one theory is it is located on the way to Orlando Airport, in fact, it appears to be the last gas station on that road before the airport. As such, it is the last opportunity for motorists to fuel their rental cars before returning them. Since the rental companies frequently impose a hefty fee for that convenience, the alternative of stopping and paying a higher than average price for gasoline is apparently attractive to some motorists. Hence, reservation prices are higher (for gas in that exact location) and hence equilibrium prices are higher. No "gouging", just supply and demand as usual.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

doorknob60

#77
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:06:56 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 03:36:11 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 03:21:32 PM
"Gouging" is not a real thing. It is to economics what perpetual motion is to physics.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sun+Gas/@28.4654136,-81.3114621,16.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88e7636cc9ab7bb1:0x8438c406007b30a!8m2!3d28.4656543!4d-81.3106835

And let us see why prices might be higher at Sun Gas?
Well, one theory is it is located on the way to Orlando Airport, in fact, it appears to be the last gas station on that road before the airport. As such, it is the last opportunity for motorists to fuel their rental cars before returning them. Since the rental companies frequently impose a hefty fee for that convenience, the alternative of stopping and paying a higher than average price for gasoline is apparently attractive to some motorists. Hence, reservation prices are higher (for gas in that exact location) and hence equilibrium prices are higher. No "gouging", just supply and demand as usual.

You're definitely right about why the price is so high, but in this instance it still is gouging IMO, there is a Wawa 2 blocks away with normal priced gas (and plenty of other gas stations within a few miles). There is plenty of supply of regular priced gas in the area, not your typical supply and demand issue. They are just preying on out of town tourists in a hurry or unfamiliar with the area.  From what I can tell, they don't make the gas prices super obvious from the road, there are signs, but not super visible. They are hoping people assume that the price is reasonable (since most of the time, pull into any gas station and the price won't be outrageous). Especially international tourists who may not be familiar with US gas prices due to currency conversion, gallons instead of liters, and US gas being generally cheaper than many countries.

For what it's worth, Sun Gas, and Suncoast Energy across the street, are charging $5-6 per gallon (even back when normal price was $2/gal or less a few months ago), double to triple the market rate. Normally, a "convenience fee" type gas markup might be something like $0.30-0.50, but a $2-3 markup is gouging.

As opposed to something like a gas station in the middle of the Nevada desert charging more for gas because they're the only thing around (and the cost of labor, gas transportation, etc. is higher due to its location), for example, would not be gouging. In that case, should be glad there's any gas at all!

HighwayStar

#78
Quote from: doorknob60 on July 02, 2021, 04:17:14 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:06:56 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 03:36:11 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 03:21:32 PM
"Gouging" is not a real thing. It is to economics what perpetual motion is to physics.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sun+Gas/@28.4654136,-81.3114621,16.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88e7636cc9ab7bb1:0x8438c406007b30a!8m2!3d28.4656543!4d-81.3106835

And let us see why prices might be higher at Sun Gas?
Well, one theory is it is located on the way to Orlando Airport, in fact, it appears to be the last gas station on that road before the airport. As such, it is the last opportunity for motorists to fuel their rental cars before returning them. Since the rental companies frequently impose a hefty fee for that convenience, the alternative of stopping and paying a higher than average price for gasoline is apparently attractive to some motorists. Hence, reservation prices are higher (for gas in that exact location) and hence equilibrium prices are higher. No "gouging", just supply and demand as usual.

You're definitely right about why the price is so high, but in this instance it still is gouging IMO, there is a Wawa 2 blocks away with normal priced gas (and plenty of other gas stations within a few miles). There is plenty of supply of regular priced gas in the area, not your typical supply and demand issue. They are just preying on out of town tourists in a hurry or unfamiliar with the area.  From what I can tell, they don't make the gas prices super obvious from the road, there are signs, but not super visible. They are hoping people assume that the price is reasonable (since most of the time, pull into any gas station and the price won't be outrageous). Especially international tourists who may not be familiar with US gas prices due to currency conversion, gallons instead of liters, and US gas being generally cheaper than many countries.

As opposed to something like a gas station in the middle of the Nevada desert charging more for gas because they're the only thing around (and the cost of labor, gas transportation, etc. is higher due to its location), for example, would not be gouging. In that case, should be glad there's any gas at all!



Again, there is no such thing as "gouging", it is as absurd to talk of it as perpetual motion machines or other physics nonsense.

"there is a Wawa 2 blocks away"
So? That does not necessarily mean anything, its two blocks back, requiring someone to turn around and go back north on the other side of a major road, then go back south. A total of 2 left turns in what is presumably traffic much of the time. Not inconsequential when catching a flight.

"and plenty of other gas stations within a few miles"
Even more irrelevant for the above reason, if I am late for a plane and need to fuel the car I don't have time to drive 2 miles out of my way to save on the fuel bill.

"not your typical supply and demand issue" That is exactly what it is. Prices are set by supply and demand.

"They are just preying on out of town tourists in a hurry or unfamiliar with the area" now you have dumped logic and gone with loaded words like "preying" that confuse the issue. They are not "preying" on anyone, they are offering a product at a price, people are free to choose to consume it or not. The customer is free to decide if the convenience is worth it to them, and for many it presumably is. In economics there is a concept of the cost of figuring things out, even if someone could get cheaper gas elsewhere it may not be worth it to them to bother with. You can always save by spending more time trying to, but everyone draws the line somewhere.

"Especially international tourists who may not be familiar with US gas prices due to currency conversion, gallons instead of liters, and US gas being generally cheaper than many countries"
Again, there is a cost for figuring things out. If you don't bother to do research it may cost you more. That is not the fault or mistreatment of the gas station.

(and the cost of labor, gas transportation, etc. is higher due to its location)" You are making a classic mistake of students in their first economics course by bringing in costs. First rule of Econ 101, costs do not matter, and prices are set by what a buyer will pay.

You do not have to be in a desert to have a constrained supply, that is a fallacy. The Sun Gas station may have gas stations nearby, but that is not the sole, or even most relevant criterion in determining the demand curve. Like it or not it is the last gas station before the airport, and what it provides as a good is not identical to others for that reason.

An old quip among economists is that it is "gouging" when it is more than I think I would pay, but is not "gouging" otherwise. The idiocy of that statement is hopefully self apparent.

I will also say that while you try to conceive of this station as charging "too much" to people unfamiliar with the area, etc. that is not a particularly likely explanation given its location on the way to, rather than from, the airport. Much more likely in my mind is a population you did not even bother to consider, which tends to have very high reservation prices. What would this population be?


Business travelers putting the expense on a company card that they don't foot the bill on.

Perhaps now you can lecture us on how it is "gouging" that you pay more for airplane tickets booked at the last minute.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

jeffandnicole

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 02, 2021, 09:02:25 AM
I think most people buying McDonalds at a service plaza don't care if their value meal costs an extra $2 because the convenience is worth the cost.
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 10:37:52 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 08:50:57 AM
Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

I would imagine many people stopping at these plazas don't expect the pricing they're going to find there, or the limited options. Many service plaza fast food outlets don't have the dollar (or low price) options or cheaper combos. Someone driving may first see it as a convenience, but probably leave unhappy they fed their family on fast food and still spent 40 bucks for some basic meals.

I doubt that is a common occurrence. I have never walked out of a service plaza fretting over the extra $2 I paid for my food, thinking if only I had spent 20 minutes trying to find an exit, navigate to another restaurant, eat there, and get back on the road.

I guess when I said "family", I wasn't thinking families of 1.

When a family pays an extra $2 per meal, or when the option of the $1 burger doesn't exist so they have to go with a $4 burger, suddenly that extra $8 or $10 is much more costly than leaving the toll road then re-entering.

Of course, since apparently we've forgotten the subject line here, if they're exiting and re-entering the highway on a non toll road, the only savings is time, not money.

HighwayStar

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 04:39:18 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 02, 2021, 09:02:25 AM
I think most people buying McDonalds at a service plaza don't care if their value meal costs an extra $2 because the convenience is worth the cost.
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 10:37:52 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 08:50:57 AM
Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

I would imagine many people stopping at these plazas don't expect the pricing they're going to find there, or the limited options. Many service plaza fast food outlets don't have the dollar (or low price) options or cheaper combos. Someone driving may first see it as a convenience, but probably leave unhappy they fed their family on fast food and still spent 40 bucks for some basic meals.

I doubt that is a common occurrence. I have never walked out of a service plaza fretting over the extra $2 I paid for my food, thinking if only I had spent 20 minutes trying to find an exit, navigate to another restaurant, eat there, and get back on the road.

I guess when I said "family", I wasn't thinking families of 1.

When a family pays an extra $2 per meal, or when the option of the $1 burger doesn't exist so they have to go with a $4 burger, suddenly that extra $8 or $10 is much more costly than leaving the toll road then re-entering.

Of course, since apparently we've forgotten the subject line here, if they're exiting and re-entering the highway on a non toll road, the only savings is time, not money.

The dollar burger at McDonalds is not really comparable to the $4 burger though. For $1 now days you usually only get their hamburger or cheeseburger. That is only 1 of their standard 1/8 patties. Even without a value menu I would say at most $2 per person difference, and very possibly much less than that. The average household size in the US is between 2 and 3 people now days, so I would say $5 is a good estimate of the upper bound cost difference.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

jeffandnicole

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:48:04 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 04:39:18 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 02, 2021, 09:02:25 AM
I think most people buying McDonalds at a service plaza don't care if their value meal costs an extra $2 because the convenience is worth the cost.
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 10:37:52 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 08:50:57 AM
Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

I would imagine many people stopping at these plazas don't expect the pricing they're going to find there, or the limited options. Many service plaza fast food outlets don't have the dollar (or low price) options or cheaper combos. Someone driving may first see it as a convenience, but probably leave unhappy they fed their family on fast food and still spent 40 bucks for some basic meals.

I doubt that is a common occurrence. I have never walked out of a service plaza fretting over the extra $2 I paid for my food, thinking if only I had spent 20 minutes trying to find an exit, navigate to another restaurant, eat there, and get back on the road.

I guess when I said "family", I wasn't thinking families of 1.

When a family pays an extra $2 per meal, or when the option of the $1 burger doesn't exist so they have to go with a $4 burger, suddenly that extra $8 or $10 is much more costly than leaving the toll road then re-entering.

Of course, since apparently we've forgotten the subject line here, if they're exiting and re-entering the highway on a non toll road, the only savings is time, not money.

The dollar burger at McDonalds is not really comparable to the $4 burger though. For $1 now days you usually only get their hamburger or cheeseburger. That is only 1 of their standard 1/8 patties. Even without a value menu I would say at most $2 per person difference, and very possibly much less than that. The average household size in the US is between 2 and 3 people now days, so I would say $5 is a good estimate of the upper bound cost difference.

Oh brother.

Rothman

Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

sprjus4

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

Rothman

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

HighwayStar

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

That was the opinion of a news editor, a group famous for their economic carelessness.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

HighwayStar

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

Rothman

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.
Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

sprjus4

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.
Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.
I'm amazed how much this guy just goes on and on.

hotdogPi

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's $45 now? You said it was $30 when you were arguing against forum member Beltway.
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US 13, 50
MA 22, 35, 40, 53, 79, 107, 109, 126, 138, 141, 159
NH 27, 78, 111A(E); CA 90; NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A, 7; CT 32, 320; VT 2A, 5A; PA 3, 51, 60, WA 202; QC 162, 165, 263; 🇬🇧A100, A3211, A3213, A3215, A4222; 🇫🇷95 D316

Lowest untraveled: 36

HighwayStar

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.
Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

sprjus4

Quote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 08:15:21 PM
It's $45 now? You said it was $30 when you were arguing against forum member Beltway.
The I-95 lanes have and still often do peak $30 (if you consider now all the way from DC on the I-395 / I-95 HO/T lane system down to Fredericksburg - once that extension opens - I would not be surprised to see $45 - $50+ rates be the norm for that entire 45 mile segment), that was the focus point for that debate. The $45 is in reference to the I-66 Inside the Beltway lanes, which is the entire highway. They have reached those types of prices for the 9 mile long stretch on certain occasions.

Not sure if it has gone higher, but this image shows $46.75 two years ago.

https://www.fox5dc.com/news/not-again-tolls-on-i-66-express-lanes-climb-to-nearly-50-during-wednesday-morning-commute

SEWIGuy

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.
Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

I'm an economics major. You are right that it's not an economic thing. But it is a moral thing. For instance, charging a thirsty person $100 for a cup of water when there is not alternative source is price gouging.  Life is more than economics.

However higher prices on tollway service areas isn't price gouging.

HighwayStar

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 02, 2021, 10:37:01 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.
Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

I'm an economics major. You are right that it's not an economic thing. But it is a moral thing. For instance, charging a thirsty person $100 for a cup of water when there is not alternative source is price gouging.  Life is more than economics.

However higher prices on tollway service areas isn't price gouging.

You don't sound like an econ major. Charging for that water is not price "gouging". Furthermore, there is no bright line of an acceptable price even under that pretense. If they are thirsty and you are claiming it is a moral problem then either you give it to them or any price is the same. There is no special significance in $100 or $50 or $1. And while being charitable is fine and all, it cannot produce the goods and services that run the economy.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

Rothman

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.
Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

You're repeating yourself.  Maybe you're a bot.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

HighwayStar

Quote from: Rothman on July 03, 2021, 12:02:35 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.
Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

You're repeating yourself.  Maybe you're a bot.

A bot would have to have some sophisticated programming to write that way.
No, I am afraid repetition tends to happen when you explain something and people give you a response as if they had not understood a word you said. There are only so many ways to make the same point.  :banghead:
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

SEWIGuy

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 11:35:34 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 02, 2021, 10:37:01 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.
Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

I'm an economics major. You are right that it's not an economic thing. But it is a moral thing. For instance, charging a thirsty person $100 for a cup of water when there is not alternative source is price gouging.  Life is more than economics.

However higher prices on tollway service areas isn't price gouging.

You don't sound like an econ major. Charging for that water is not price "gouging". Furthermore, there is no bright line of an acceptable price even under that pretense. If they are thirsty and you are claiming it is a moral problem then either you give it to them or any price is the same. There is no special significance in $100 or $50 or $1. And while being charitable is fine and all, it cannot produce the goods and services that run the economy.


Well I am an econ major.  And again, you missed my point.  Price gouging may not be a thing in economics, but it is still a thing.  If you choose to minimize or ignore it, that's fine.

Rothman

#97
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 02:06:11 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 03, 2021, 12:02:35 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.
What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?
It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.
Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

You're repeating yourself.  Maybe you're a bot.

A bot would have to have some sophisticated programming to write that way.
No, I am afraid repetition tends to happen when you explain something and people give you a response as if they had not understood a word you said. There are only so many ways to make the same point.  :banghead:
It's not about making the same point, but considering and responding to those that respond to you.  When you can't incorporate other thoughts into your position, your position is incomplete.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

GaryV

"Gouging" means overcharging.  "Overcharging" means charging too much.  "Too much" is a value judgment.  What is an acceptable price to some may not be to others.

I am not willing (let alone able) to spend millions of dollars on a painting.  Others are able.  But that doesn't mean when a Van Gogh is auctioned for $37,000,000 that the seller was gouging.  It's what the market would bear.

If the price of gas is more than you can bear at a service plaza, don't buy it there.  Don't buy gas just outside the airport entrance.  (Aside: I am amazed that gas stations, often the same brand, can be 20 or 30 cents different in price just a mile or two apart, when neither place is somewhere exclusive.)

Flint1979

It's not gouging if you can still find something for a lower price. Like I complained for years about the BP in Romulus on middlebelt by the far rental return at metro l. They would charge over a dollar more a gallon than everyone else in the area. The reason was they are the last gas station before the car rental return so they are trying to hammer you people thinking they need to return with a full tank don't thinkof anything else then bam that station is there. But if you can find it for a lower price it's not gouging I sent a letter to the Michigan Attorney General and got one back stating this. This was back when Mike Cox was the AG.



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