Control Cities

[sprjus4]

Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?"  The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).

Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas.  Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35. 

Chris

What percentage of traffic is that compared to east-west travel on the mainline interstate?

[SkyPesos]

Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon “just fine?” The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you’re going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).

Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas.  Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35. 

Chris

Isn't I-25/US 87/US 287 preferable for Denver to Dallas over I-70/US 287? US 287 between Limon and Dumas, TX is mostly 2 lanes, while US 87 from Raton to Dumas is 4 lanes.

[hbelkins]

and I-70 doesn't actually go to Colorado Springs

Well, we have one member here who says  I-70 also doesn't actually go to Baltimore, so there you are. 

[SkyPesos]

Speaking of Colorado Springs, are there long-term plans to 4 lane US 24 between Colorado Springs and Limon, or even a 3di (I-570 maybe, since 170 and 370 are state routes)? I think Colorado Springs would like a good quality connection to the east, considering how fast they're gaining population.

[sprjus4]

Speaking of Colorado Springs, are there long-term plans to 4 lane US 24 between Colorado Springs and Limon, or even a 3di (I-570 maybe, since 170 and 370 are state routes)? I think Colorado Springs would like a good quality connection to the east, considering how fast they're gaining population.

If I-70 didn't dip so far south after leaving Denver to the east, and actually maintained a straight line across towards Kansas, I'd say I-25 / E-470 / I-70 would be a good alternative... but obviously not with reality.

Regarding reality though, AADT is only around 3,000 on US-24 west of Limon, so I'm not sure how much of a priority it is at the moment, anyways.

[jaehak]

Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?"  The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).

Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas.  Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35. 

Chris

Isn't I-25/US 87/US 287 preferable for Denver to Dallas over I-70/US 287? US 287 between Limon and Dumas, TX is mostly 2 lanes, while US 87 from Raton to Dumas is 4 lanes.

This. 25/87 is faster than 70/287.

[thspfc]

Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?"  The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).

Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas.  Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35. 

Chris

Say there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.

You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.

[JayhawkCO]

Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?"  The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).

Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas.  Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35. 

Chris

Say there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.

You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.

I'll just let it move on to its normal nonsense.

Chris

[Roadgeekteen]

Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?"  The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).

Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas.  Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35. 

Chris

Say there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.

You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.

I'll just let it move on to its normal nonsense.

Chris

That doesn't really explain it. If I wasn't a roadgeek I would not know anything about Limon.

[amroad17]

Control cities should be large in almost all cases.

No they shouldn't

Why not?

Why should they have to be?

So people unfamiliar with the area know where the road goes.

All right.  Based on your logic, Wytheville, VA, Carlisle, PA, Bristol, TN/VA, Mahwah, NJ, Jamestown, NY, and Corning, NY should not be on any BGS's or be control cities even though they are waypoints to either important junctions or they are a decent sized city between two larger cities with a considerable amount of mileage between them.  Your logic would dictate that I-81 would skip over both Wytheville and Bristol in favor of Knoxville/Roanoke, I-81 would skip Carlisle for Hagerstown/Harrisburg, I-287 would have Albany as a northbound control city instead of Mahwah, and I-86 would skip over Jamestown and Corning in favor of Erie/Binghamton, along with I-99/US 15 using Rochester instead of Corning.

Yes, there are some control cities that do not really need to be put on signs (Benson, NC and Albert Lea, MN--even though they are at Interstate junctions; Hays, KS, Grenada, MS, and many of the ones along I-80 in PA--should be Sharon, DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, and Stroudsburg only, saving Youngstown or Cleveland/New York for the major interchanges).  I used to feel the same way about Limon when I first drove out west--why Limon?  That is until I realized that it is an important waypoint for those heading east (use US 287 to head toward Dallas/Ft. Worth) and west (use US 24 to head to Colorado Springs). 

Control cities do not always need to be larger cities, even though many states sign the BGS's that way (Memphis/Chicago on I-57, New York on I-80 around Youngstown, OH, New York on I-95 northbound starting in Baltimore).  As many others have said, they are meant to be waypoints for the motoring public.

[sprjus4]

Control cities should be large in almost all cases.

No they shouldn't

Why not?

Why should they have to be?

So people unfamiliar with the area know where the road goes.

All right.  Based on your logic, Wytheville, VA, Carlisle, PA, Bristol, TN/VA, Mahwah, NJ, Jamestown, NY, and Corning, NY should not be on any BGS's or be control cities even though they are waypoints to either important junctions or they are a decent sized city between two larger cities with a considerable amount of mileage between them.  Your logic would dictate that I-81 would skip over both Wytheville and Bristol in favor of Knoxville/Roanoke, I-81 would skip Carlisle for Hagerstown/Harrisburg, I-287 would have Albany as a northbound control city instead of Mahwah, and I-86 would skip over Jamestown and Corning in favor of Erie/Binghamton, along with I-99/US 15 using Rochester instead of Corning.

IMO, all of those recommendations sound reasonable.

That is until I realized that it is an important waypoint for those heading east (use US 287 to head toward Dallas/Ft. Worth) and west (use US 24 to head to Colorado Springs).

It is a junction of those routes, however only a minority of traffic is using them compared to the majority of east-west traffic on I-70. As I've said in the past, if a city like Limon is desired, then sign it as a secondary control city. But Denver or Topeka / Kansas City certainly have merits to be signed as well as that is where the vast majority of traffic is headed.

Using this logic, for example, Emporia, VA should be signed as a control city over Richmond, or South Hill over Petersburg on I-95 and I-85 respectively, because traffic splits there to towards US-58 East. Dandridge, TN should be signed as a control city over Asheville on I-40 out of Knoxville, because traffic splits there towards I-81 North. Sikeston, MO should be signed as a control city over St. Louis on I-55 out of Memphis, because traffic splits there towards I-57 North. I wouldn't necessarily agree with these changes.

[jaehak]

Control cities should be large in almost all cases.

No they shouldn't

Why not?

Why should they have to be?

So people unfamiliar with the area know where the road goes.

All right.  Based on your logic, Wytheville, VA, Carlisle, PA, Bristol, TN/VA, Mahwah, NJ, Jamestown, NY, and Corning, NY should not be on any BGS's or be control cities even though they are waypoints to either important junctions or they are a decent sized city between two larger cities with a considerable amount of mileage between them.  Your logic would dictate that I-81 would skip over both Wytheville and Bristol in favor of Knoxville/Roanoke, I-81 would skip Carlisle for Hagerstown/Harrisburg, I-287 would have Albany as a northbound control city instead of Mahwah, and I-86 would skip over Jamestown and Corning in favor of Erie/Binghamton, along with I-99/US 15 using Rochester instead of Corning.

IMO, all of those recommendations sound reasonable.

Agreed. I'd get rid of all of these. Outside of the existing control cities (Hays, Salina, Topeka, KC), 70 meets US highways in Levant, South Randall, Oakley, WaKeeney,  Russell, Junction City, Lawrence, and Bonner Springs. Some percentage of traffic leaves 70 to use these roads. Should all of these places be primary control cities? No way. Most if not all of them are signed as secondary controls on mileage signs and lesser interchanges, which is fine.

[CoreySamson]

Ok, changing the subject with what I suspect will be a very unpopular opinion. I think Temple should be a control city on I-35 in Texas. Its metro area has a population of 450k (btw, its core population is around 78k, about 10 times that of Limon) and it now has an interstate junction.

[SkyPesos]

Ok, changing the subject with what I suspect will be a very unpopular opinion. I think Temple should be a control city on I-35 in Texas. Its metro area has a population of 450k (btw, its core population is around 78k, about 10 times that of Limon) and it now has an interstate junction.

As a secondary one, sure. I still think Dallas (or Ft Worth) and Austin should be the only primaries in that segment, and Waco and Temple can be used as secondaries (minor interchanges).

[thspfc]

Ok, changing the subject with what I suspect will be a very unpopular opinion. I think Temple should be a control city on I-35 in Texas. Its metro area has a population of 450k (btw, its core population is around 78k, about 10 times that of Limon) and it now has an interstate junction.

I understand why it could be a secondary control city, but it shouldn't even be considered as a primary.

[jaehak]

Ok, changing the subject with what I suspect will be a very unpopular opinion. I think Temple should be a control city on I-35 in Texas. Its metro area has a population of 450k (btw, its core population is around 78k, about 10 times that of Limon) and it now has an interstate junction.

As a secondary one, sure. I still think Dallas (or Ft Worth) and Austin should be the only primaries in that segment, and Waco and Temple can be used as secondaries (minor interchanges).

Agree. Austin and the Metroplex are massive and not that far apart. Waco should be downgraded to secondary, and everything else between ATX and DFW should stay secondary (for now, if one of them blows up like Austin in the future than upgrade control city status then)

[Roadgeekteen]

Control cities should be large in almost all cases.

No they shouldn't

Why not?

Why should they have to be?

So people unfamiliar with the area know where the road goes.

All right.  Based on your logic, Wytheville, VA, Carlisle, PA, Bristol, TN/VA, Mahwah, NJ, Jamestown, NY, and Corning, NY should not be on any BGS's or be control cities even though they are waypoints to either important junctions or they are a decent sized city between two larger cities with a considerable amount of mileage between them.  Your logic would dictate that I-81 would skip over both Wytheville and Bristol in favor of Knoxville/Roanoke, I-81 would skip Carlisle for Hagerstown/Harrisburg, I-287 would have Albany as a northbound control city instead of Mahwah, and I-86 would skip over Jamestown and Corning in favor of Erie/Binghamton, along with I-99/US 15 using Rochester instead of Corning.

Yes, there are some control cities that do not really need to be put on signs (Benson, NC and Albert Lea, MN--even though they are at Interstate junctions; Hays, KS, Grenada, MS, and many of the ones along I-80 in PA--should be Sharon, DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, and Stroudsburg only, saving Youngstown or Cleveland/New York for the major interchanges).  I used to feel the same way about Limon when I first drove out west--why Limon?  That is until I realized that it is an important waypoint for those heading east (use US 287 to head toward Dallas/Ft. Worth) and west (use US 24 to head to Colorado Springs). 

Control cities do not always need to be larger cities, even though many states sign the BGS's that way (Memphis/Chicago on I-57, New York on I-80 around Youngstown, OH, New York on I-95 northbound starting in Baltimore).  As many others have said, they are meant to be waypoints for the motoring public.

I would sign Bristol and Jamestown, sign Wytheville on I-77 for lack of a better option, and skip the rest. Limon makes some sense eastbound, absolutely no sense westbound.

[webny99]

^ Corning, NY is used on I-390. I'm in favor of it, as it's a significant regional waypoint, it's near the junction with I-99, and there's not many other good options. I actually think I-86 should use Corning as well, for consistency.

I have mixed feelings about Jamestown. Westbound you could just use Erie, PA, but it does make sense eastbound.

[Roadgeekteen]

^ Corning, NY is used on I-390. I'm in favor of it, as it's a significant regional waypoint, it's near the junction with I-99, and there's not many other good options. I actually think I-86 should use Corning as well, for consistency.

I have mixed feelings about Jamestown. Westbound you could just use Erie, PA, but it does make sense eastbound.

Eastbound on I-86 I would not oppose signing New York City, at least on some signs.

[Flint1979]

Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?"  The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).

Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas.  Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35. 

Chris

Say there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.

You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.

One more post to explain why Limon should be a control city? Because it is. I don't see the problem nor do I really care about it.

[Roadgeekteen]

Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?"  The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).

Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas.  Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35. 

Chris

Say there are 100 cars traveling on I-70 EB out of Denver to random destinations around the Great Plains and the rest of the country. How many of them are going to exit at US-287 in Limon? Maybe 5 or 10? Of those 5 or 10, at least half of them don't even know that Limon, population 1k, exists, they just look at the route that Google Maps gives them and make the turns where they're told to. On the other hand, you have the 90-95 other drivers who continue on I-70 eastbound past Limon. Of those 90-95, the vast majority know at the very least that Kansas is east of Colorado, as is Kansas City. Therefore Limon is of absolutely no use to 95-98% of drivers.

You and Flint have like one more post to explain why Limon should be a control city. Because this thread needs to move on from this nonsense.

One more post to explain why Limon should be a control city? Because it is. I don't see the problem nor do I really care about it.

If you don't care why are you posting about it?

[webny99]

Eastbound on I-86 I would not oppose signing New York City, at least on some signs.

New York City is used from Binghamton east, which is fine (except for the fact that I-81 south to I-380 to I-80 is technically faster).

NYC does not need to be used west of Binghamton, because Binghamton is plenty big enough to be the main control city. It also has 2di's in five directions, so a lot of traffic may be taking I-88 or I-81, not continuing towards NYC.

[SEWIGuy]

One thing I learned from this topic....people WAY overthink the importance of control cities.

[hbelkins]

I never understood Jamestown as a control city on I-86. It's not that big of a place and is not an important intersection.

I'd use Corning, Binghamton, Middletown, and NYC eastbound; Middletown, Binghamton, Corning, and Erie westbound.

[TXtoNJ]

Yes, it does. And again, what makes Limon "just fine?"  The 287 junction is meaningless unless you are getting on 70 east at Deer Trail or Agate, or unless you're going from Denver to Kit Carson (population 231).

Unless perhaps, you're driving from Denver to Dallas.  Many (if not most) truckers take US287 instead of I-70>I-135->I-35. 

Chris

Isn't I-25/US 87/US 287 preferable for Denver to Dallas over I-70/US 287? US 287 between Limon and Dumas, TX is mostly 2 lanes, while US 87 from Raton to Dumas is 4 lanes.

25 over Raton Pass is a beast, especially in winter. There are times where it's much safer to blast across the high plains than attempt to go over the pass.