Best resturants to have in service plazas?

[kphoger]

Once upon a time, I found myself just off the interstate exit with "low gas" light on, 2 AM on the clock - and with a 24 hr Dunkin nearby. A very friendly clerk advised that nearest 24 hr gas is 32 miles going east, 27 miles going west, or the station across the street opens at 6 AM.
Technically speaking, this is 100% my fault for not planning properly, but I sort of didn't quite liked it anyway. Since then, I specifically appreciate 24 hr services...

Having grown up in a town whose gas stations closed overnight, and in a region where towns are 30 miles apart...  yeah.

[jeffandnicole]

I'm not sure where the concern about a 24 hour restaurant being open in a service area started on this thread, but this is a non-issue that the main toll roads have dealt with for 60 - 80 years. The offerings may be reduced and service may be slower, especially if the food is made on-demand rather than having popular items cooked and ready to go, but the toll roads are well versed in what their overnight travelers generally want.

Staffing is certainly a concern too,  which factors in to what they require to be open. Many service areas have also incorporated convenience stores into their gas station locations, as demand for a cup of coffee, soda, or a quick snack greatly outpaces the desire for a burger and fries overnight at a fraction of the cost of keeping a restaurant operational.

The Garden State Parkway's southern-most service plaza (was named Oceanview, now Toni Morrison) terminated all restaurant service several years ago and operates only gas and a convenience store at this location. Even at that it's 24 hours only from Memorial Day to Labor Day; 6am to 8pm the rest of the year.

[kphoger]

I'm not sure where the concern about a 24 hour restaurant being open in a service area started on this thread, but this is a non-issue that the main toll roads have dealt with for 60 - 80 years.

It grew out of the fact that the #2 (by sales) fast-food chain in the USA is only open six days a week, and whether that should make it a non-contender for service plazas.

[jeffandnicole]

I'm not sure where the concern about a 24 hour restaurant being open in a service area started on this thread, but this is a non-issue that the main toll roads have dealt with for 60 - 80 years.

It grew out of the fact that the #2 (by sales) fast-food chain in the USA is only open six days a week, and whether that should make it a non-contender for service plazas.

Ah, OK. And we know that it still remains a valid contender as the Thomas Edison service area on the NJ Turnpike features CFA, BK, and other options.

[Scott5114]

I think for rest areas having one location open 24/7 should suffice.

This sounds like a very reasonable compromise.

But how would it work IRL?  Let's say a service plaza has a place for four restaurants, all four places are currently filled, but only Emporium of Albanian Tacos (EAT®) is open 24/7.  Then one day, corporate ownership changes and all EAT® locations have to be closed between 1 AM and 5 AM.  What then?  What would be the fair thing to do?

Presumably the stipulation that EAT® must be open 24/7 would be in EAT®'s contract. So EAT® corporate would be legally obliged to make an exception to their corporate policy, or else be held in breach of contract, which would probably mean they'd lose their spot in that service plaza

While most of us would have no problem saying "One of you four must be 24 hours, it doesn't matter who, decide amongst yourselves", I don't think most people responsible for setting up something like a service area would be okay with such an ambiguous arrangement, precisely because of the sort of situation you mentioned.

[kphoger]

I think for rest areas having one location open 24/7 should suffice.

This sounds like a very reasonable compromise.

But how would it work IRL?  Let's say a service plaza has a place for four restaurants, all four places are currently filled, but only Emporium of Albanian Tacos (EAT®) is open 24/7.  Then one day, corporate ownership changes and all EAT® locations have to be closed between 1 AM and 5 AM.  What then?  What would be the fair thing to do?

Presumably the stipulation that EAT® must be open 24/7 would be in EAT®'s contract. So EAT® corporate would be legally obliged to make an exception to their corporate policy, or else be held in breach of contract, which would probably mean they'd lose their spot in that service plaza

While most of us would have no problem saying "One of you four must be 24 hours, it doesn't matter who, decide amongst yourselves", I don't think most people responsible for setting up something like a service area would be okay with such an ambiguous arrangement, precisely because of the sort of situation you mentioned.

Are you saying that the 24/7 requirement would only be in EAT®'s contract, not in the other restaurants' contracts?

[CtrlAltDel]

Getting a bit beyond service plazas, I’ve often thought that the requirements for the logo signs were a bit weak.

As Part 2, Chapter J, Section 01, Paragraph 10 of the MUTCD states, in part,

To qualify for a GAS logo sign panel, a business should have:

    Vehicle services including gas and/or alternative fuels, oil, and water;
    Continuous operation at least 16 hours per day, 7 days per week for freeways and expressways, and continuous operation at least 12 hours per day, 7 days per week for conventional roads;
    Modern sanitary facilities and drinking water; and
    Public telephone.

To qualify for a FOOD logo sign panel, a business should have:

    Licensing or approval, where required;
    Continuous operations to serve at least two meals per day, at least 6 days per week;
    Modern sanitary facilities; and
    Public telephone.

While perhaps they were written as they were to allow for some flexibility (and they are guidance not standards), I think that gas stations should be open 24 hours and that restaurants should serve three meals a day all seven days week. I wouldn’t go so far there as to require 24-hour operation there.

Also, incidentally, by “modern sanitary facilities,” I assume they mean bathrooms, but the term is not defined in the MUTCD itself, as far as Control-F tells me, which seems a bit too euphemistic.

Also, how many of these places still have public telephones?

[kphoger]

I think that gas stations should be open 24 hours

In rural areas, that might end up being a long stretch between blue signs.  That wouldn't be very helpful to drivers during daylight hours.

and that restaurants should serve three meals a day all seven days week.

So Jimmy John's doesn't deserve to be on blue signs, considering they tend to open up around 11 AM?

[Scott5114]

I think for rest areas having one location open 24/7 should suffice.

This sounds like a very reasonable compromise.

But how would it work IRL?  Let's say a service plaza has a place for four restaurants, all four places are currently filled, but only Emporium of Albanian Tacos (EAT®) is open 24/7.  Then one day, corporate ownership changes and all EAT® locations have to be closed between 1 AM and 5 AM.  What then?  What would be the fair thing to do?

Presumably the stipulation that EAT® must be open 24/7 would be in EAT®'s contract. So EAT® corporate would be legally obliged to make an exception to their corporate policy, or else be held in breach of contract, which would probably mean they'd lose their spot in that service plaza

While most of us would have no problem saying "One of you four must be 24 hours, it doesn't matter who, decide amongst yourselves", I don't think most people responsible for setting up something like a service area would be okay with such an ambiguous arrangement, precisely because of the sort of situation you mentioned.

Are you saying that the 24/7 requirement would only be in EAT®'s contract, not in the other restaurants' contracts?

That would be my guess. If you allow the four restaurants to decide who stays open, you risk a situation where nobody does it, and I'm guessing any penalty would be difficult to enforce because any given restaurant would be able to say "Well, it's not our fault nobody was open; EAT®, Fresh-In-Skillet Halibut®, and Fred's Oldstyle Omelet Dispensary® could have each met the requirements but chose not to. Therefore penalizing us is wrong," and, well, there's not a whole lot wrong with that argument, legally.

So presumably, at the time the lease was signed, the leasing authority would negotiate with the restaurants until one of them was willing to have a 24-hour clause inserted into their contract. They might get something in return, like discounted rent. But once they signed that, it would be binding, and if it conflicts with corporate policy, well, corporate policy is legally in the wrong, not the contract.

[NWI_Irish96]

I think for rest areas having one location open 24/7 should suffice.

This sounds like a very reasonable compromise.

But how would it work IRL?  Let's say a service plaza has a place for four restaurants, all four places are currently filled, but only Emporium of Albanian Tacos (EAT®) is open 24/7.  Then one day, corporate ownership changes and all EAT® locations have to be closed between 1 AM and 5 AM.  What then?  What would be the fair thing to do?

Presumably the stipulation that EAT® must be open 24/7 would be in EAT®'s contract. So EAT® corporate would be legally obliged to make an exception to their corporate policy, or else be held in breach of contract, which would probably mean they'd lose their spot in that service plaza

While most of us would have no problem saying "One of you four must be 24 hours, it doesn't matter who, decide amongst yourselves", I don't think most people responsible for setting up something like a service area would be okay with such an ambiguous arrangement, precisely because of the sort of situation you mentioned.

Are you saying that the 24/7 requirement would only be in EAT®'s contract, not in the other restaurants' contracts?

That would be my guess. If you allow the four restaurants to decide who stays open, you risk a situation where nobody does it, and I'm guessing any penalty would be difficult to enforce because any given restaurant would be able to say "Well, it's not our fault nobody was open; EAT®, Fresh-In-Skillet Halibut®, and Fred's Oldstyle Omelet Dispensary® could have each met the requirements but chose not to. Therefore penalizing us is wrong," and, well, there's not a whole lot wrong with that argument, legally.

So presumably, at the time the lease was signed, the leasing authority would negotiate with the restaurants until one of them was willing to have a 24-hour clause inserted into their contract. They might get something in return, like discounted rent. But once they signed that, it would be binding, and if it conflicts with corporate policy, well, corporate policy is legally in the wrong, not the contract.

That's how I figure it works. Also, the restaurant that agrees to stay open 24/7 gets the best location within the food court.

[CtrlAltDel]

I think that gas stations should be open 24 hours

In rural areas, that might end up being a long stretch between blue signs.  That wouldn't be very helpful to drivers during daylight hours.

Or, it would incentivize them to be become 24/7, at least if they want to be on the signs. It need not necessarily be an either-or thing. Plus, on Interstates, at least outside of cities, it's not exactly uncommon for gas stations to open 24 hours already.

and that restaurants should serve three meals a day all seven days week.

So Jimmy John's doesn't deserve to be on blue signs, considering they tend to open up around 11 AM?

No. That said, I'd be willing to allow late-night as a meal time for these purposes. So, perhaps to rephrase things a bit, maybe here the rule could be, "continuous operation at least 16 hours per day, 7 days per week."

[abefroman329]

So Jimmy John's doesn't deserve to be on blue signs, considering they tend to open up around 11 AM

If the Macaroni Grill at O'Hare can find a way to serve breakfast, then so can Jimmy John's.

And they don't deserve to be on blue signs because their sandwiches are awful.

[DenverBrian]

I don't expect any restaurant to be open 24 hours. If I'm planning a trip, I anticipate that food and restroom availability will be limited during the wee hours, and my best bet for a snack and a place to evacuate waste is going to be a convenience store -- or a state-maintained rest area if on an interstate.

Once upon a time, I found myself just off the interstate exit with "low gas" light on, 2 AM on the clock - and with a 24 hr Dunkin nearby. A very friendly clerk advised that nearest 24 hr gas is 32 miles going east, 27 miles going west, or the station across the street opens at 6 AM.
Technically speaking, this is 100% my fault for not planning properly, but I sort of didn't quite liked it anyway. Since then, I specifically appreciate 24 hr services...

You've got 2 gallons in the tank at a "low fuel" light in most cases - plenty to reach either station east or west. Where's your sense of adventure? 

[kalvado]

I don't expect any restaurant to be open 24 hours. If I'm planning a trip, I anticipate that food and restroom availability will be limited during the wee hours, and my best bet for a snack and a place to evacuate waste is going to be a convenience store -- or a state-maintained rest area if on an interstate.

Once upon a time, I found myself just off the interstate exit with "low gas" light on, 2 AM on the clock - and with a 24 hr Dunkin nearby. A very friendly clerk advised that nearest 24 hr gas is 32 miles going east, 27 miles going west, or the station across the street opens at 6 AM.
Technically speaking, this is 100% my fault for not planning properly, but I sort of didn't quite liked it anyway. Since then, I specifically appreciate 24 hr services...

You've got 2 gallons in the tank at a "low fuel" light in most cases - plenty to reach either station east or west. Where's your sense of adventure? 

I ended up filling 13.48 gallons into a nominally 13.5 gallon tank back then. Not sure how far I was from a real adventure...
I kept that receipt in a car until its departure for a junk yard...

[HighwayStar]

I don't expect any restaurant to be open 24 hours. If I'm planning a trip, I anticipate that food and restroom availability will be limited during the wee hours, and my best bet for a snack and a place to evacuate waste is going to be a convenience store -- or a state-maintained rest area if on an interstate.

Once upon a time, I found myself just off the interstate exit with "low gas" light on, 2 AM on the clock - and with a 24 hr Dunkin nearby. A very friendly clerk advised that nearest 24 hr gas is 32 miles going east, 27 miles going west, or the station across the street opens at 6 AM.
Technically speaking, this is 100% my fault for not planning properly, but I sort of didn't quite liked it anyway. Since then, I specifically appreciate 24 hr services...

You've got 2 gallons in the tank at a "low fuel" light in most cases - plenty to reach either station east or west. Where's your sense of adventure? 

I ended up filling 13.48 gallons into a nominally 13.5 gallon tank back then. Not sure how far I was from a real adventure...
I kept that receipt in a car until its departure for a junk yard...

I have done very highly optimized runs across the country where minimizing the number of fuel stops resulted in 20-35 miles of travel with the fuel light on each tank for about 6 tanks. Its amazing how much fuel will fit in a car if you fill it until it comes out the top.

[GCrites]

Getting a bit beyond service plazas, I've often thought that the requirements for the logo signs were a bit weak.

As Part 2, Chapter J, Section 01, Paragraph 10 of the MUTCD states, in part,

To qualify for a GAS logo sign panel, a business should have:

    Vehicle services including gas and/or alternative fuels, oil, and water;
    Continuous operation at least 16 hours per day, 7 days per week for freeways and expressways, and continuous operation at least 12 hours per day, 7 days per week for conventional roads;
    Modern sanitary facilities and drinking water; and
    Public telephone.

To qualify for a FOOD logo sign panel, a business should have:

    Licensing or approval, where required;
    Continuous operations to serve at least two meals per day, at least 6 days per week;
    Modern sanitary facilities; and
    Public telephone.

While perhaps they were written as they were to allow for some flexibility (and they are guidance not standards), I think that gas stations should be open 24 hours and that restaurants should serve three meals a day all seven days week. I wouldn't go so far there as to require 24-hour operation there.

Also, incidentally, by "modern sanitary facilities,"  I assume they mean bathrooms, but the term is not defined in the MUTCD itself, as far as Control-F tells me, which seems a bit too euphemistic.

Also, how many of these places still have public telephones?

I don't even look for payphones at gas stations any more. Do they keep them around just so they can be on the blue signs? Or since most business plans now include unlimited long distance do they allow the business to just hand someone the business phone?

[jeffandnicole]

So Jimmy John's doesn't deserve to be on blue signs, considering they tend to open up around 11 AM?

No. That said, I'd be willing to allow late-night as a meal time for these purposes. So, perhaps to rephrase things a bit, maybe here the rule could be, "continuous operation at least 16 hours per day, 7 days per week."

This would knock a lot of restaurants off the signs - even those that serve 3 meals a day may be open 7am to 10pm. Keeping staff on that extra fringe hour isn't cheap.  And while Wendy's, Arby's and the like tend to experiment with breakfast on occasion, they often don't stick with it.  You'll wind up with exit after exit featuring McDonalds, Burger King, and maybe another local chain with rules this restrictive.

So Jimmy John's doesn't deserve to be on blue signs, considering they tend to open up around 11 AM

If the Macaroni Grill at O'Hare can find a way to serve breakfast, then so can Jimmy John's.

A single location in a secured zone with a captured audience is a bit different than a hoagie chain in the wild.

Other airports have restaurants where breakfast isn't the norm for them, but the environment makes it worthwhile to have a breakfast menu.  Most people aren't going to go to a bar at 8am outside of an airport, yet most bars inside airports are open by 7am or earlier.

[HighwayStar]

Getting a bit beyond service plazas, I've often thought that the requirements for the logo signs were a bit weak.

As Part 2, Chapter J, Section 01, Paragraph 10 of the MUTCD states, in part,

To qualify for a GAS logo sign panel, a business should have:

    Vehicle services including gas and/or alternative fuels, oil, and water;
    Continuous operation at least 16 hours per day, 7 days per week for freeways and expressways, and continuous operation at least 12 hours per day, 7 days per week for conventional roads;
    Modern sanitary facilities and drinking water; and
    Public telephone.

To qualify for a FOOD logo sign panel, a business should have:

    Licensing or approval, where required;
    Continuous operations to serve at least two meals per day, at least 6 days per week;
    Modern sanitary facilities; and
    Public telephone.

While perhaps they were written as they were to allow for some flexibility (and they are guidance not standards), I think that gas stations should be open 24 hours and that restaurants should serve three meals a day all seven days week. I wouldn't go so far there as to require 24-hour operation there.

Also, incidentally, by "modern sanitary facilities,"  I assume they mean bathrooms, but the term is not defined in the MUTCD itself, as far as Control-F tells me, which seems a bit too euphemistic.

Also, how many of these places still have public telephones?

I don't even look for payphones at gas stations any more. Do they keep them around just so they can be on the blue signs? Or since most business plans now include unlimited long distance do they allow the business to just hand someone the business phone?

Its been several years since I found a working payphone. They have been trying to get rid of them ever since 9/11 because too much funny business goes on when you can't monitor who is calling who.

[hotdogPi]

Its been several years since I found a working payphone. They have been trying to get rid of them ever since 9/11 because too much funny business goes on when you can't monitor who is calling who.

Quebec City has them everywhere.

As for the US, I've found exactly one, and I've walked on about 150 miles of roads: here. The 9 key doesn't work (tried with toll-free 1-800-FLOWERS to test if it still worked, but W=9), and the local area code is 978. Everything else is fully functional, though.

[kphoger]

So Jimmy John's doesn't deserve to be on blue signs, considering they tend to open up around 11 AM?

No. That said, I'd be willing to allow late-night as a meal time for these purposes. So, perhaps to rephrase things a bit, maybe here the rule could be, "continuous operation at least 16 hours per day, 7 days per week."

This would knock a lot of restaurants off the signs - even those that serve 3 meals a day may be open 7am to 10pm. Keeping staff on that extra fringe hour isn't cheap.  And while Wendy's, Arby's and the like tend to experiment with breakfast on occasion, they often don't stick with it.  You'll wind up with exit after exit featuring McDonalds, Burger King, and maybe another local chain with rules this restrictive.

So Jimmy John's doesn't deserve to be on blue signs, considering they tend to open up around 11 AM

If the Macaroni Grill at O'Hare can find a way to serve breakfast, then so can Jimmy John's.

A single location in a secured zone with a captured audience is a bit different than a hoagie chain in the wild.

Other airports have restaurants where breakfast isn't the norm for them, but the environment makes it worthwhile to have a breakfast menu.  Most people aren't going to go to a bar at 8am outside of an airport, yet most bars inside airports are open by 7am or earlier.

Plus, putting such restrictions in place, you'd end up with a situation quite un-useful to the large majority of drivers.

I think it's pretty reasonable for people to expect the following:
1.  Burger joints might not be open for breakfast.
2.  Donut shops might not be open for dinner.
3.  Some places might be closed on Sundays.

With that in mind, a sub sandwich shop like Jimmy John's should still have a place on the sign, even if they don't serve breakfast:  why should people expect them to?  Similarly, breakfast chains (like Jiimmy's Egg or First Watch) that close in the early afternoon should still have a place on the sign, even if they don't serve supper:  why should people expect them to?

Disallowing such restaurants from the signs would eliminate useful information to drivers about where they can grab some pancakes for breakfast or a sandwich for dinner.

So I guess I'm saying the current MUTCD guidance makes a lot more sense to me than making it more restrictive would.

[1995hoo]

There are some payphones in the US District Courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia. They need them: Cellular phones (and most other electronics, including Apple Watches) are prohibited in the building–even attorneys appearing in court must get prior permission from a judge to bring a laptop. That's perhaps the second-most draconian policy of which I'm aware, and they don't provide lockers to store prohibited items. There used to be a Chinese-run deli across the street that would hold items for $5 per device; they probably made more money doing that than they did selling food.

[kalvado]

There are some payphones in the US District Courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia. They need them: Cellular phones (and most other electronics, including Apple Watches) are prohibited in the building–even attorneys appearing in court must get prior permission from a judge to bring a laptop. That's perhaps the second-most draconian policy of which I'm aware, and they don't provide lockers to store prohibited items. There used to be a Chinese-run deli across the street that would hold items for $5 per device; they probably made more money doing that than they did selling food.

And think about all the money they could get for the information on those devices!

[GCrites]

So Jimmy John's doesn't deserve to be on blue signs, considering they tend to open up around 11 AM?

No. That said, I'd be willing to allow late-night as a meal time for these purposes. So, perhaps to rephrase things a bit, maybe here the rule could be, "continuous operation at least 16 hours per day, 7 days per week."

This would knock a lot of restaurants off the signs - even those that serve 3 meals a day may be open 7am to 10pm. Keeping staff on that extra fringe hour isn't cheap.  And while Wendy's, Arby's and the like tend to experiment with breakfast on occasion, they often don't stick with it.  You'll wind up with exit after exit featuring McDonalds, Burger King, and maybe another local chain with rules this restrictive.

So Jimmy John's doesn't deserve to be on blue signs, considering they tend to open up around 11 AM

If the Macaroni Grill at O'Hare can find a way to serve breakfast, then so can Jimmy John's.

A single location in a secured zone with a captured audience is a bit different than a hoagie chain in the wild.

Other airports have restaurants where breakfast isn't the norm for them, but the environment makes it worthwhile to have a breakfast menu.  Most people aren't going to go to a bar at 8am outside of an airport, yet most bars inside airports are open by 7am or earlier.

Plus, putting such restrictions in place, you'd end up with a situation quite un-useful to the large majority of drivers.

I think it's pretty reasonable for people to expect the following:
1.  Burger joints might not be open for breakfast.
2.  Donut shops might not be open for dinner.
3.  Some places might be closed on Sundays.

With that in mind, a sub sandwich shop like Jimmy John's should still have a place on the sign, even if they don't serve breakfast:  why should people expect them to?  Similarly, breakfast chains (like Jiimmy's Egg or First Watch) that close in the early afternoon should still have a place on the sign, even if they don't serve supper:  why should people expect them to?

Disallowing such restaurants from the signs would eliminate useful information to drivers about where they can grab some pancakes for breakfast or a sandwich for dinner.

So I guess I'm saying the current MUTCD guidance makes a lot more sense to me than making it more restrictive would.

A Waffle House at service plazas would fix a lot of these "problems" all at once. Waffle House usually isn't that much slower than fast food and late at night probably isn't any slower at all even if it is "sit-down".

[jeffandnicole]

I've seen a few around here, although the most memorable one is
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3p2SJqyoFL2SMwFP6 . It's off NJ 45 in Mullica Hill, which is generally a fairly well-to-do area not near too many homes or businesses, and not near where people would be generally walking by. It's location is at a former police station that has been long abandoned.

Its been several years since I found a working payphone. They have been trying to get rid of them ever since 9/11 because too much funny business goes on when you can't monitor who is calling who.

Was this a legit reason, a made up reason, or a conspiracy theory reason?  It would be easy to ban them, albeit an unpopular move. And it's been 20 years since 9/11, so that isn't much of a reason anymore.

[CtrlAltDel]

Was this a legit reason, a made up reason, or a conspiracy theory reason?

It's either or both of the last two.