Can a highway be racist?

[Rothman]

No, roads weren't used to simply throw minorities out.  They were obviously built to try to improve transportation first and foremost.  But, the decisions to their placement were definitely tainted by racism.

The idea that Robert Moses equally affected the rich and the poor is an absolute false equivalence, per The Power Broker.

[brad2971]

That may serve to confirm what I was thinking, then:  light rail and commuter rail don't tend to divide neighborhoods because they generally use existing rail corridors–around which those neighborhoods have already grown–whereas an expressway slices a fresh cut through them.

This explains how the Red Line south of the Loop 'divided the hell out of neighborhoods' but the Red Line north of the Loop 'most certainly does not divide the neighborhood'.  The Dan Ryan branch follows the median of a big wide expressway, whereas the North Side main line has been in operation as a passenger railway since 1900.

I assume you've heard of gentrification and "transit-oriented development" that is planned or occurs when a new light rail or commuter rail line is built. There may be a time within the next 20-30 years where intellectuals of all races will make claims that light-rail lines negatively altered majority-minority neighborhoods just as much as freeways did, based upon those very things happening in those neighborhoods.

It should have been very telling to a whole bunch of the planning and development folks in this nation that, when presented with the idea to tear down the I-10 viaduct and restore Claiborne Ave's neutral grounds, the descendants of New Orleans black folks negatively affected by highway development stated that they wanted no part of that idea.

[Ted$8roadFan]

That may serve to confirm what I was thinking, then:  light rail and commuter rail don't tend to divide neighborhoods because they generally use existing rail corridors–around which those neighborhoods have already grown–whereas an expressway slices a fresh cut through them.

This explains how the Red Line south of the Loop 'divided the hell out of neighborhoods' but the Red Line north of the Loop 'most certainly does not divide the neighborhood'.  The Dan Ryan branch follows the median of a big wide expressway, whereas the North Side main line has been in operation as a passenger railway since 1900.

I assume you've heard of gentrification and "transit-oriented development" that is planned or occurs when a new light rail or commuter rail line is built. There may be a time within the next 20-30 years where intellectuals of all races will make claims that light-rail lines negatively altered majority-minority neighborhoods just as much as freeways did, based upon those very things happening in those neighborhoods.

It should have been very telling to a whole bunch of the planning and development folks in this nation that, when presented with the idea to tear down the I-10 viaduct and restore Claiborne Ave's neutral grounds, the descendants of New Orleans black folks negatively affected by highway development stated that they wanted no part of that idea.

It's clear that issues of classism will (or should) be as prevalent in the future as issues of racism. Unfortunately, the very people who are at the forefront of our national conversations on race are among the least credible on matters of class. 

[D-Dey65]

No, roads weren't used to simply throw minorities out.  They were obviously built to try to improve transportation first and foremost.  But, the decisions to their placement were definitely tainted by racism.

The idea that Robert Moses equally affected the rich and the poor is an absolute false equivalence, per The Power Broker.

The originally intended route of the Northern State Parkway in Old Westbury is where the Long Island Expressway is today. Rich white people forced him to build the "objector's bend." Bayside is far from a poor neighborhood since the Clearview Expressway was built through it. The route of the Mid-Manhattan Expressway's route was proposed to connect the Lincoln and Queens-Midtown Tunnels, and the Lower Manhattan Expressway's route was proposed to connect the Holland Tunnel and Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges. Neither of these two roads had their routes chosen because of racism. And all the BS that Robert Caro claimed about the low bridges being racially motivated can be easily discredited by the encouragement of the use of the LIRR and then local buses to get to Jones Beach (6:44 to 6:58 on the video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3OfB6aGZ-Y

Hey, where are the Whites Only signs? Oh, that's right. NOWHERE!

[Rothman]

No, roads weren't used to simply throw minorities out.  They were obviously built to try to improve transportation first and foremost.  But, the decisions to their placement were definitely tainted by racism.

The idea that Robert Moses equally affected the rich and the poor is an absolute false equivalence, per The Power Broker.

The originally intended route of the Northern State Parkway in Old Westbury is where the Long Island Expressway is today. Rich white people forced him to build the "objector's bend." Bayside is far from a poor neighborhood since the Clearview Expressway was built through it. The route of the Mid-Manhattan Expressway's route was proposed to connect the Lincoln and Queens-Midtown Tunnels, and the Lower Manhattan Expressway's route was proposed to connect the Holland Tunnel and Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges. Neither of these two roads had their routes chosen because of racism. And all the BS that Robert Caro claimed about the low bridges being racially motivated can be easily discredited by the encouragement of the use of the LIRR and then local buses to get to Jones Beach (6:44 to 6:58 on the video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3OfB6aGZ-Y

Hey, where are the Whites Only signs? Oh, that's right. NOWHERE!

Cherry-picking the history and a misunderstanding of how racism was implemented in the North (e.g., overt segregation wasn't used, but other policies certainly were, most notably redlining).

Again, I believe Caro's well-documented assertions about Moses' and others' racism and the effects of such.

[D-Dey65]

No, roads weren't used to simply throw minorities out.  They were obviously built to try to improve transportation first and foremost.  But, the decisions to their placement were definitely tainted by racism.

The idea that Robert Moses equally affected the rich and the poor is an absolute false equivalence, per The Power Broker.

The originally intended route of the Northern State Parkway in Old Westbury is where the Long Island Expressway is today. Rich white people forced him to build the "objector's bend." Bayside is far from a poor neighborhood since the Clearview Expressway was built through it. The route of the Mid-Manhattan Expressway's route was proposed to connect the Lincoln and Queens-Midtown Tunnels, and the Lower Manhattan Expressway's route was proposed to connect the Holland Tunnel and Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges. Neither of these two roads had their routes chosen because of racism. And all the BS that Robert Caro claimed about the low bridges being racially motivated can be easily discredited by the encouragement of the use of the LIRR and then local buses to get to Jones Beach (6:44 to 6:58 on the video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3OfB6aGZ-Y

Hey, where are the Whites Only signs? Oh, that's right. NOWHERE!

Cherry-picking the history and a misunderstanding of how racism was implemented in the North (e.g., overt segregation wasn't used, but other policies certainly were, most notably redlining).

Again, I believe Caro's well-documented assertions about Moses' and others' racism and the effects of such.

And all the projects he built in those minority neighborhoods disprove Caro's claims on a grand scale:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-09/robert-moses-and-his-racist-parkway-explained
I'm not dismissing his racism. I'm just saying Caro's myths about him building low bridges to keep minorities in buses from them or building roads to displace minorities are an easily proven myth.

[Scott5114]

You ever have an interaction with a business where you just kind of get the run-around and it takes a long time to get anything done? Say you're trying to do a return, and initially it's questionable whether you can even return it, because it might be outside the return window, so it takes some time to establish that this particular item is under a different, longer return window, but then the register isn't letting the clerk process the return, so she has to get a manager, and then the manager initially says the return is outside the return window, and then you and the clerk both have to explain it to her, and then the register won't accept her override code, so she has to call her boss to figure out how to do the return, and then come to find out they can only give you store credit, and then...

Now, does the store in this example have an explicit policy that says "returns should be complicated and annoying"? No. But the sum total of all of the decisions the institution has made, the policies they have written, and the processes they have in place, all add up to make your return complicated and annoying. There isn't a conscious decision being made to make it so, and nobody involved in the transaction is really pushing it to be that way. Rather, the system, being oblivious to what it is doing, inartfully lumbers along, making for a sub-optimal experience for everyone involved.

The exact same thing is true of racism in the United States. Most people aren't consciously acting in a prejudiced manner–some are, but it's hopefully a vast minority–but decisions from the past have piled on top of one another for generation after generation to just kind of make it suck, not on purpose, but on accident. And it's hard to get people to change their mind on it, especially when they grow up with the world a certain way and don't really have a reason to change it, especially when they can't see an individual policy as a piece of a bigger puzzle.

Highway construction is just one of thousands of those puzzle pieces.

[Rothman]

No, roads weren't used to simply throw minorities out.  They were obviously built to try to improve transportation first and foremost.  But, the decisions to their placement were definitely tainted by racism.

The idea that Robert Moses equally affected the rich and the poor is an absolute false equivalence, per The Power Broker.

The originally intended route of the Northern State Parkway in Old Westbury is where the Long Island Expressway is today. Rich white people forced him to build the "objector's bend." Bayside is far from a poor neighborhood since the Clearview Expressway was built through it. The route of the Mid-Manhattan Expressway's route was proposed to connect the Lincoln and Queens-Midtown Tunnels, and the Lower Manhattan Expressway's route was proposed to connect the Holland Tunnel and Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges. Neither of these two roads had their routes chosen because of racism. And all the BS that Robert Caro claimed about the low bridges being racially motivated can be easily discredited by the encouragement of the use of the LIRR and then local buses to get to Jones Beach (6:44 to 6:58 on the video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3OfB6aGZ-Y

Hey, where are the Whites Only signs? Oh, that's right. NOWHERE!

Cherry-picking the history and a misunderstanding of how racism was implemented in the North (e.g., overt segregation wasn't used, but other policies certainly were, most notably redlining).

Again, I believe Caro's well-documented assertions about Moses' and others' racism and the effects of such.

And all the projects he built in those minority neighborhoods disprove Caro's claims on a grand scale:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-09/robert-moses-and-his-racist-parkway-explained
I'm not dismissing his racism. I'm just saying Caro's myths about him building low bridges to keep minorities in buses from them or building roads to displace minorities are an easily proven myth.

Do you read the articles you post?

"The verdict? It appears that Sid Shapiro was right.

Overall, clearances are substantially lower on the Moses parkway, averaging just 107.6 inches (eastbound), against 121.6 inches on the Hutchinson and 123.2 inches on the Saw Mill. Even on the Bronx River Parkway"

Your article proves the myth was fact.

[the91fwy]

In the Chicago example, the then Mayor Daley (Sr.) had some very clear objectives when it came to using the new federal dollars to build expressways. But was he targeting anyone?

i can't really remember if he was displaced by the congress expressway or the douglas extension of the blue line (now pink) but my dad's house was moved in the 50's for one of the two.  it leans heavily today because the foundation was never set correctly during relocation.  no real $$$ there.

also the century freeway (the 110) in LA is another great example.

~cat

[jemacedo9]

The exact same thing is true of racism in the United States. Most people aren't consciously acting in a prejudiced manner–some are, but it's hopefully a vast minority–but decisions from the past have piled on top of one another for generation after generation to just kind of make it suck, not on purpose, but on accident.

To add to this:  when i was younger, "racist" and "prejudiced" were two separate terms.  "Racist" was the more overt term, meant for intentional acts or emotions, and "prejudiced" was the more subtle term.  Now the use of the term "racist" has morphed to cover all of it.

But I think that some people who aren't really racist but more prejudiced get quickly defensive about being labeled racist because they are thinking of the more narrow definition...which unfortunately blinds them to realize that they are prejudiced.  In addition...most of us are probably prejudiced in some fashion, on some topic...it's human.  But the important thing is to realize and correct your prejudices when confronted with them.  And that's hard to do with a defensive reaction.

And that doesn't just apply to someone's actions - that applies to their perceptions and understandings also.  Which is one reason why people get so defensive when confronting perceptions of the past (a/k/a denial).

As I said earlier...proving racism (in the narrow definition) in many of the highway decisions is probably going to be impossible in many cases.  But denying it in either the narrow definition of racism, or the broader more subtle definition...is just as invalid of a possibility as proving it IMO.

[kphoger]

You ever have an interaction with a business where you just kind of get the run-around and it takes a long time to get anything done? Say you're trying to do a return, and initially it's questionable whether you can even return it, because it might be outside the return window, so it takes some time to establish that this particular item is under a different, longer return window, but then the register isn't letting the clerk process the return, so she has to get a manager, and then the manager initially says the return is outside the return window, and then you and the clerk both have to explain it to her, and then the register won't accept her override code, so she has to call her boss to figure out how to do the return, and then come to find out they can only give you store credit, and then...

Now, does the store in this example have an explicit policy that says "returns should be complicated and annoying"? No. But the sum total of all of the decisions the institution has made, the policies they have written, and the processes they have in place, all add up to make your return complicated and annoying. There isn't a conscious decision being made to make it so, and nobody involved in the transaction is really pushing it to be that way. Rather, the system, being oblivious to what it is doing, inartfully lumbers along, making for a sub-optimal experience for everyone involved.

The exact same thing is true of racism in the United States. Most people aren't consciously acting in a prejudiced manner–some are, but it's hopefully a vast minority–but decisions from the past have piled on top of one another for generation after generation to just kind of make it suck, not on purpose, but on accident. And it's hard to get people to change their mind on it, especially when they grow up with the world a certain way and don't really have a reason to change it, especially when they can't see an individual policy as a piece of a bigger puzzle.

Highway construction is just one of thousands of those puzzle pieces.

It's also possible that the exact same store policies that made your specific return excruciatingly difficult have made returns overall an efficient and beneficial system–maybe even better than any alternative.  So, say, 4% of all returns have a nasty amount of rigmarole, but the other 96% of all returns are simple and fast with no questions asked.

That would be perhaps difficult to quantify, and the analogue of race disparity as it relates to highway infrastructure would be much harder to quantify.

[jamess]

There may be a time within the next 20-30 years where intellectuals of all races will make claims that light-rail lines negatively altered majority-minority neighborhoods just as much as freeways did, based upon those very things happening in those neighborhoods.

Well, no, because a light rail line isnt spewing tons of pollution, both in particulate matter and in noise levels. Light rail also has a much higher safety record, Rail can certainly create barriers in neighborhoods, as some agencies absolutely love fencing and detest grade crossings, but even that will be to a much lesser extent.

Much more common are examples where a rail line is proposed, and opposition is mounted on pretty racist grounds, claiming that the new rail service will "bring criminals" to the neighborhood and whatnot.

IE:

Some residents of Gloucester County worry that a proposed new light-rail line between Camden and Glassboro will bring an increase in crime to the small towns along the route.

"More people are coming up here from Camden. Palmyra used to be so quiet. It seems like so much change. It scares me for it to be here. . . . You have these people walking the quiet neighborhoods.

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/local/20090525_Some_in_Glouco_fear_that_light_rail_will_bring_crime.html

Camden (and Philadelphia) are majority black communities. The suburban towns are majority white.

Some people are a little more blatant with their racism.

A mayoral candidate doesn't want a light rail extension to be built into the western Twin Cities suburbs because it's "going to bring riffraff and trash from Minneapolis."

Bob Ivers is running to be the next mayor of Hopkins, hoping to beat out incumbent Mayor Molly Cummings in the Nov. 7 election.

And during a League of Women Voters candidate forum on Monday, Ivers called minorities "coloreds" and "ethnics" in his effort to explain why he doesn't want the Southwest Light Rail line to go through Hopkins.
https://bringmethenews.com/news/the-light-rail-will-bring-riffraff-and-trash-from-welfare-apolis-guy-running-for-mayor-in-hopkins-says

Thats from 2017. That is a political candidate making blatantly racist statements in 2017. Now imagine what happened behind closed doors in 1954.


Oh, and speaking of "You have these people walking the quiet neighborhoods" you also frequently see stories of people opposing SIDEWALKS because they claim it will bring crime.

[D-Dey65]

Do you read the articles you post?

"The verdict? It appears that Sid Shapiro was right.

Actually, they prove the opposite. The bus stops at Jones Beach, and the existence of Jacob Riis Park, which was just as easily accessible by buses in Brooklyn for everybody, no matter what races they are easily disprove that he built anything just to kick out minorities. Or Colonial Park, now known as Jackie Robinson Park in Harlem. Or what about Soundview Park and Pelham Bay Park? Plus, the low overpasses were for appearances. He was about having them blend into the landscape, just like the parkways of Westchester, which sadly need more overpasses and interchanges. So Shapiro was wrong.

[Rothman]

Do you read the articles you post?

"The verdict? It appears that Sid Shapiro was right.

Actually, they prove the opposite. The bus stops at Jones Beach, and the existence of Jacob Riis Park, which was just as easily accessible by buses in Brooklyn for everybody, no matter what races they are easily disprove that he built anything just to kick out minorities. Or Colonial Park, now known as Jackie Robinson Park in Harlem. Or what about Soundview Park and Pelham Bay Park? Plus, the low overpasses were for appearances. He was about having them blend into the landscape, just like the parkways of Westchester, which sadly need more overpasses and interchanges. So Shapiro was wrong.

That's not what your article concluded, hence the quote from it I provided from it that you truncated.

[triplemultiplex]

Oh, and speaking of "You have these people walking the quiet neighborhoods" you also frequently see stories of people opposing SIDEWALKS because they claim it will bring crime.

Ugh I have heard this exact thing from people in person.  "I don't want the city (boring suburb) to build this bike path along the road because people will use it to case my house for robbery".
Mindblowingly stupid.

[Max Rockatansky]

Oh, and speaking of "You have these people walking the quiet neighborhoods" you also frequently see stories of people opposing SIDEWALKS because they claim it will bring crime.

Ugh I have heard this exact thing from people in person.  "I don't want the city (boring suburb) to build this bike path along the road because people will use it to case my house for robbery".
Mindblowingly stupid.

When the Phoenix Light Rail was being proposed the argument against it in Scottsdale was that it would bring in crime and homeless people.  The irony that one of the largest bike trails in the Phoenix area was located in Scottsdale wasn't lost on me when it was time to vote.  Rural Metro also already had a huge bus presence in Scottsdale at the time as well. 

[NWI_Irish96]

Oh, and speaking of "You have these people walking the quiet neighborhoods" you also frequently see stories of people opposing SIDEWALKS because they claim it will bring crime.

Ugh I have heard this exact thing from people in person.  "I don't want the city (boring suburb) to build this bike path along the road because people will use it to case my house for robbery".
Mindblowingly stupid.

When the Phoenix Light Rail was being proposed the argument against it in Scottsdale was that it would bring in crime and homeless people.  The irony that one of the largest bike trails in the Phoenix area was located in Scottsdale wasn't lost on me when it was time to vote.  Rural Metro also already had a huge bus presence in Scottsdale at the time as well. 

The South Shore Line, which currently runs from downtown Chicago to South Bend, is getting an new branch that goes through my town. Lots of ignorant people complaining that "thugs from the city" are going to ride the train out to our town to commit crimes.

Yeah, that's exactly it. Amongst an epidemic of carjackings, they're going to pay $6 to spend an hour on a train to get here.

[kphoger]

Well, obviously, the reason they aren't already going from Dolton over to Munster to commit crimes is that Pace bus doesn't go that far...   

[abefroman329]

Related:

[D-Dey65]

Related:

Are people that stupid?

Ooh, I just robbed this house and stole this guy's piano. I'm going to take it several blocks then on a bus and a train.

That's not what your article concluded, hence the quote from it I provided from it that you truncated.

Sorry, but the lack of Jim Crow signs, the mixed neighborhoods he built the roads through, and the mass transit facilitation at the parks those roads lead to leaves me extraordinarily unconvinced.

[Rothman]

That's not what your article concluded, hence the quote from it I provided from it that you truncated.

Sorry, but the lack of Jim Crow signs, the mixed neighborhoods he built the roads through, and the mass transit facilitation at the parks those roads lead to leaves me extraordinarily unconvinced.

You're the one that provided the article to the contrary.

And to say that systemic racism didn't exist because Jim Crow wasn't in the North ignores all the evidence to the contrary (e.g., redlining and the subsequent need for busing to integrate schools).

[brad2971]

Oh, and speaking of "You have these people walking the quiet neighborhoods" you also frequently see stories of people opposing SIDEWALKS because they claim it will bring crime.

Ugh I have heard this exact thing from people in person.  "I don't want the city (boring suburb) to build this bike path along the road because people will use it to case my house for robbery".
Mindblowingly stupid.

When the Phoenix Light Rail was being proposed the argument against it in Scottsdale was that it would bring in crime and homeless people.  The irony that one of the largest bike trails in the Phoenix area was located in Scottsdale wasn't lost on me when it was time to vote.  Rural Metro also already had a huge bus presence in Scottsdale at the time as well. 

Douglas County (CO) and Park Meadows Mall made similar arguments when the Southeast Light Rail was constructed. So much so, that direct access to the mall wasn't added until two years after the light rail became operational. That light rail line has since been extended further into Lone Tree/DC.

[D-Dey65]

That's not what your article concluded, hence the quote from it I provided from it that you truncated.

Sorry, but the lack of Jim Crow signs, the mixed neighborhoods he built the roads through, and the mass transit facilitation at the parks those roads lead to leaves me extraordinarily unconvinced.

You're the one that provided the article to the contrary.

And to say that systemic racism didn't exist because Jim Crow wasn't in the North ignores all the evidence to the contrary (e.g., redlining and the subsequent need for busing to integrate schools).

No, what I'm saying is it's not involved in the construction of the road network. I don't care how much redlining there has been in the cities. Nobody builds roads on the basis or racism.

[SEWIGuy]

That's not what your article concluded, hence the quote from it I provided from it that you truncated.

Sorry, but the lack of Jim Crow signs, the mixed neighborhoods he built the roads through, and the mass transit facilitation at the parks those roads lead to leaves me extraordinarily unconvinced.

You're the one that provided the article to the contrary.

And to say that systemic racism didn't exist because Jim Crow wasn't in the North ignores all the evidence to the contrary (e.g., redlining and the subsequent need for busing to integrate schools).

No, what I'm saying is it's not involved in the construction of the road network. I don't care how much redlining there has been in the cities. Nobody builds roads on the basis or racism.

LOL...if you say so...

[thspfc]

That's not what your article concluded, hence the quote from it I provided from it that you truncated.

Sorry, but the lack of Jim Crow signs, the mixed neighborhoods he built the roads through, and the mass transit facilitation at the parks those roads lead to leaves me extraordinarily unconvinced.

You're the one that provided the article to the contrary.

And to say that systemic racism didn't exist because Jim Crow wasn't in the North ignores all the evidence to the contrary (e.g., redlining and the subsequent need for busing to integrate schools).

No, what I'm saying is it's not involved in the construction of the road network. I don't care how much redlining there has been in the cities. Nobody builds roads on the basis or racism.

But they do build roads on the basis of money, a tendency that disproportionately affects nonwhite communities.