Limon

[thspfc]

EB out of Denver on I-70, I'd say it makes the most sense to follow the example often used in the Chicago area and use "Kansas".

Then why do we use Cheyenne? Why not just say Wyoming?

Wyoming is still a hundred than times more notable than Limon.

[JayhawkCO]

East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Nothing went wrong. The question was what do you say when giving a direction, specifically from Denver towards the airport. I'd tell them to take I-70 East. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Limon. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Hays. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas City. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards the Baltimore Park and Ride.

Clear enough?

Maybe, like, read his post?

How would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

I think it was pretty strongly implied that directions were off-limits.

If I were forced to use a place, I'd say Limon because that's what the signs say. If you're just in the metro, it doesn't make any sense to use a city. If you're in Madison and someone needs to go west on I-90, what do you say? La Crosse? Or do you just say go west?

[Flint1979]

I'll use I-75 in Michigan for my example since it's the 2di that I am most familiar with. If someone was wanting to get to Detroit from say Saginaw I'd tell them to take I-75 south. First of all the next control city on SB I-75 is Flint then Detroit so by this I should be telling them to take I-75 towards Flint? Also no one ever mentions the US-23 concurrency with I-75, people around here call it just I-75. So I was wondering if I should call it 75 and 23 or should I tell them just I-75? I guess you could tell them to take I-75 towards Flint since Flint is on the signs but telling them to take I-75 south should work just as well.

If someone wanted to get to Toledo I'd tell them to take I-75 south to US-23 south, as I have already mentioned US-23 doesn't get mentioned on it's concurrency with I-75 regardless if it's on the signs or not (which it is).

[kalvado]

East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Nothing went wrong. The question was what do you say when giving a direction, specifically from Denver towards the airport. I'd tell them to take I-70 East. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Limon. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Hays. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas City. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards the Baltimore Park and Ride.

Clear enough?

Maybe, like, read his post?

How would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

I think it was pretty strongly implied that directions were off-limits.

It's not off limits; I just want to understand the way people actually think and talk. I would take @JayhawkCO answer as "Limon is a reasonable choice for control city, but in general it doesn't matter that much as we don't think about roads and directions that way.". Which is a perfectly valid approach.
I, for one, can be easily lost with east-west or left-right; so for me some reference point is preferred. But that is just me, and the way things go in my area. 

PS - "other than west" refers to what should be choosen as a control point. Cardinal direction is already there on a sign. And yes, I believe information on the sign should help me-the-driver, it should not be there just to satisfy government requirements.

[thspfc]

East.

What went wrong here?

To actually answer the question: I would think Kansas.

Nothing went wrong. The question was what do you say when giving a direction, specifically from Denver towards the airport. I'd tell them to take I-70 East. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Limon. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Hays. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas City. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards Kansas. I wouldn't say take I-70 towards the Baltimore Park and Ride.

Clear enough?

Maybe, like, read his post?

How would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

I think it was pretty strongly implied that directions were off-limits.

If I were forced to use a place, I'd say Limon because that's what the signs say. If you're just in the metro, it doesn't make any sense to use a city. If you're in Madison and someone needs to go west on I-90, what do you say? La Crosse? Or do you just say go west?

Wisconsin Dells. Major tourist destination.

[J N Winkler]

It's not off limits; I just want to understand the way people actually think and talk. I would take @JayhawkCO answer as "Limon is a reasonable choice for control city, but in general it doesn't matter that much as we don't think about roads and directions that way.". Which is a perfectly valid approach.

I, for one, can be easily lost with east-west or left-right; so for me some reference point is preferred. But that is just me, and the way things go in my area.

I would default to using just route and cardinal direction word ("I-70 East") since that means I don't have to remember whether there is a sign with a control city, let alone what control city is used on that sign.  If pressed to accommodate your situation, I think I would give you a short menu of cities you are likely to find in the desired direction rather than just one.

The reason for this is not just that Kansas skips Limon on I-70, but also that skipping control cities in general is probably very common among state DOTs.  For example, if you approach I-35 on I-80 near Des Moines, the destinations on either side are Minneapolis and Kansas City, notwithstanding the MUTCD's guidance ("should," not "shall") that the next control city on the route be used.  This is a skip of three control cities, since Ames, Mason City, and Albert Lea all come before Minneapolis.

I live less than 100 miles from the interchange in question and I would still have to go to StreetView to tell you what the side destinations are at I-70 as you approach it from the south on I-135.  I think they are probably Hays or Denver for west and Salina or Topeka for east,  but to pick one for each side would falsely imply certainty and possibly cause trouble for you if I am wrong.

[kalvado]

It's not off limits; I just want to understand the way people actually think and talk. I would take @JayhawkCO answer as "Limon is a reasonable choice for control city, but in general it doesn't matter that much as we don't think about roads and directions that way.". Which is a perfectly valid approach.

I, for one, can be easily lost with east-west or left-right; so for me some reference point is preferred. But that is just me, and the way things go in my area.

I would default to using just route and cardinal direction word ("I-70 East") since that means I don't have to remember whether there is a sign with a control city, let alone what control city is used on that sign.  If pressed to accommodate your situation, I think I would give you a short menu of cities you are likely to find in the desired direction rather than just one.

It's not even about accomodation; it is about control cities adequately describing road destinations from my perspective. It is easy to look at I-87 from Albany and say it goes to NYC, even if my destination is in Catskills. Many people actually drove all the way to control cities used on all highways in the  area, so there is little room for confusion. 
Well, it is an east coast  situation, where there are major cities 3 hours away in all directions.
I can totally see how the destination 8 hours away (Denver to KC along I-70)  doesn't work that way.

[Jim]

EB out of Denver on I-70, I'd say it makes the most sense to follow the example often used in the Chicago area and use "Kansas".

Then why do we use Cheyenne? Why not just say Wyoming?

I'd say because Cheyenne is not far away, a major enough city that people know, and at a junction with another major interstate.

"Kansas" over "Limon" on EB on I-70 out of Denver makes more sense to me than "Iowa" over "Des Moines" on WB I-80 out of Chicago or "Ohio" over "Toledo" on I-80/90 EB on the Indiana Toll Road.

[Scott5114]

It's not even about accomodation; it is about control cities adequately describing road destinations from my perspective. It is easy to look at I-87 from Albany and say it goes to NYC, even if my destination is in Catskills. Many people actually drove all the way to control cities used on all highways in the  area, so there is little room for confusion. 
Well, it is an east coast  situation, where there are major cities 3 hours away in all directions.
I can totally see how the destination 8 hours away (Denver to KC along I-70)  doesn't work that way.

That is an interesting little wrinkle, isn't it? In the East, you're probably more likely to actually visit control cities than you are farther west. Growing up in central Oklahoma, Amarillo and Fort Smith were fantastical far-away places whose contents were limited only to the imagination. Here be dragons. They weren't places I had any hope of actually experiencing for any reason. At least not until I got my license, got on MTR, and chose to visit them on purpose.

[J N Winkler]

It's not even about accommodation; it is about control cities adequately describing road destinations from my perspective. It is easy to look at I-87 from Albany and say it goes to NYC, even if my destination is in Catskills. Many people actually drove all the way to control cities used on all highways in the  area, so there is little room for confusion.

Well, it is an east coast  situation, where there are major cities 3 hours away in all directions. I can totally see how the destination 8 hours away (Denver to KC along I-70) doesn't work that way.

Yes.  In the more densely populated East, there is less pressure to add smaller towns to the control city list.  This in turn translates to less likelihood of two-tier situations like at I-35/I-80 in Iowa, where (for example) a large share of the northbound traffic is likely to be local/"local stranger" drivers going to Ames but a majority of the long-distance northbound drivers want Minneapolis and know better where it is in relation to Des Moines than they do Ames.

The MUTCD does say that control cities should be of "national significance."  From that point of view, Denver carries more weight than Limon or even Hays.

While a road enthusiast with recent experience of travel on the roads you would need to take might be able to get into the nuances of which control cities appear where in the signs that have been erected in the state DOT's current sign replacement cycle, KISS dictates just route and cardinal direction to avoid giving misleading information.

[J N Winkler]

"Kansas" over "Limon" on EB on I-70 out of Denver makes more sense to me than "Iowa" over "Des Moines" on WB I-80 out of Chicago or "Ohio" over "Toledo" on I-80/90 EB on the Indiana Toll Road.

Do you know Davenport?  Both it and Iowa City come before Des Moines as control cities on I-80 west of I-55.

The deeper into this thread I get, the more I realize just how crazy existing control city signing is.

[NWI_Irish96]

I really think this boils down to what you expect a control city to do.

A control city can describe the major destination that the highway leads to, which may be near or far, which may or may not actually be on that particular route.

A control city can describe the best place within the next 200 miles to stop for fuel, food and lodging. This should be on the route, but may or may not be a "recognizable city."

I prefer having primary and secondary control cities when both of the above are not the same place. That provides the best information.

In this case, going east from Denver on I-70, I'd sign both Limon and Kansas City. Kansas City best describes where this route is going, and Limon best describes where I might want to stop next. Once you past Limon, that becomes Goodland, then Hays (perhaps), maybe Salina, then Topeka, and finally just Kansas City by itself.

[Scott5114]

I wonder if the best solution may be to include a smaller route shield next to control cities chosen primarily because they are a major highway junction, to make it clear that is the purpose being served by its inclusion. You could do something similar with service icons.

(36" I-70) WEST
JCT (24" US-24) Limon
Denver

(36" I-70) EAST
(food) (gas) Hays
Topeka

[J N Winkler]

FWIW, when KDOT conducted a major sign replacement in northwestern Kansas in the very early noughties under contract 106 K-5927-99, these were the distance signs installed on I-70:

Eastbound:

Hays 163, Salina 256, Topeka 368
Goodland 15, Colby 52, Hays 157
Edson 8, Colby 34, Hays 143
Brewster 8, Colby 28, Hays 129
Lavant [sic] 8, Colby 19, Hays 103
Hays 113, Salina 206, Topeka 318
Colby 7, Oakley 23, Hays 112
Oakley 18, WaKeeney 71, Hays 103
US-40 5, WaKeeney 59, Hays 91
Grinnell 10, WaKeeney 51, Hays 80
Grainfield 8, WaKeeney 47, Hays 76
Park 4, WaKeeney 31, Hays 62
Quinter 8, Hays 60, Salina 154
Collyer 8, WaKeeney 20, Hays 53
WaKeeney 12, Hays 46, Salina 136
Hays 36, Salina 129, Topeka 241
Ogallah 7, Hays 33, Salina 126
Ellis 10, Hays 26, Salina 119
Hays 16, Russell 40, Salina 108
Victoria 10, Russell 27, Salina 94
Gorham 7, Russell 17, Salina 85
Russell 10, Wilson 31, Salina 78
Bunker Hill 8, Dorrance 15, Salina 69
Bunker Hill 4, Dorrance 11, Salina 65
Wilson 8, Salina 54
Salina 36, Topeka 129, Kansas City 241

Westbound:

Bunker Hill 7, Russell 16, Hays 41
Gorham 14, Victoria 21, Hays 31
Hays 29, Limon 278, Denver 364
Gorham 10, Victoria 17, Hays 27
Victoria 9, Hays 18, Limon 267
Hays 11, Oakley 94, Limon 260
Ellis 12, WaKeeney 30, Limon 249
Ogallah 9, WaKeeney 19, Limon 236
WaKeeney 8, Oakley 63, Limon 226
Limon 224, Denver 310
Collyer 12, Oakley 54, Limon 218
Quinter 8, Oakley 41, Limon 206
Park 8, Oakley 35, Limon 199
Grainfield 5, Oakley 26, Limon 190
Grinnell 8, Oakley 20, Limon 184
Oakley 12, Colby 34, Limon 176
Colby 18, Goodland 51, Limon 160
Levant 7, Goodland 34, Limon 144
Limon 140, Denver 226
Brewster 9, Goodland 26, Limon 136
Edson 9, Goodland 19, Limon 125
Goodland 10, Limon 118
Kanorado 17, Burlington 30, Limon 107
Limon 97, Denver 183
Burlington 13, Limon 90

As you can see, there is some tiering with most signs having only the next control city and only on the last line, while a few give distances to the next few control cities.  I'm not sure how many of these signs remain, though more recent plans sets show Limon dropped as a control city in favor of Denver.

[Jim]

"Kansas" over "Limon" on EB on I-70 out of Denver makes more sense to me than "Iowa" over "Des Moines" on WB I-80 out of Chicago or "Ohio" over "Toledo" on I-80/90 EB on the Indiana Toll Road.

Do you know Davenport?  Both it and Iowa City come before Des Moines as control cities on I-80 west of I-55.

The deeper into this thread I get, the more I realize just how crazy existing control city signing is.

Yes, drove through Davenport just 2 days ago.  And I agree, that or "Quad Cities" would work fine too.

[thspfc]

Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

[brad2971]

Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Kansas, as far east as Ellis, would like to beg to differ: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9504121,-99.560198,3a,37.5y,19.28h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szyumR6vpRWDYSZic3KKyeQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

[DenverBrian]

But again, how does signing a largely unknown town 90 or 100 or 200 miles away help anyone? How does "Limon" indicate that there's amenities 90 miles in that direction?

Limon is a three-road junction - I-70, US-24, US-287. It's a decision point westbound for going to Denver or Colorado Springs; it's a decision point eastbound for going to Burlington or Lamar. I think it's quite rational to have it as a control city.

Denver is a 10-road junction - I-70, I-25, I-76, US-6, US-40, US-36, US-285, US-85, US-287, and CO-58. It's a decision point westbound for going to Boulder, Golden, Fort Collins, Lakewood, Los Angeles, Estes Park, Steamboat Springs, Longmont, Loveland, others. It's a decision point eastbound for going to Kansas City, Chicago, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Aurora, others. I think it's quite a bit more rational than Limon to have it as a control city.

Also you didn't answer my question at all.

I was within the context that in all of eastern Colorado, only Limon has more than two roads intersecting. Once you're in the West, I think there's a different approach than there is in the far more populated East. I think it does help travelers intrastate, especially when the state is the size of 5-10 states in the East.

Let me ask a bit different question - how do people in the west describe directions in general?
If I ask you - or rather an average driver in Las Vegas - for directions, say, from Las Vegas to a national park in Utah, how would you say "Take I-15  towards..." Towards Utah? Towards Salt Lake City? Towards north? Towards some other place?  I would say that the most common answer (other than "north") would be the best one to put on a sign, regardless of what FHWA thinks about "proper" control points.
Over here in NY, I can certainly say "I-90 towards Buffalo", bypassing quite a few big cities - and would accept some of those cities as possible answers from others ; but I don't think about I-90 as a road to Chicago or Seattle unless I talk about directions to the airport.

So back to original question -  how would an average driver in Denver describe I-70 east in terms of a road towards XXX? For certainty, let's assume they asked for directions toward Denver airport.

I'd tell them to take I-70 east towards...the airport.

(I am amazed at how many on this board...mostly not from the West...are so wrapped around the axle about this.)

[thspfc]

Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Kansas, as far east as Ellis, would like to beg to differ: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9504121,-99.560198,3a,37.5y,19.28h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szyumR6vpRWDYSZic3KKyeQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Anyone else wonder what they smoke at KDOT?

[Roadgeekteen]

Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Kansas, as far east as Ellis, would like to beg to differ: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9504121,-99.560198,3a,37.5y,19.28h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szyumR6vpRWDYSZic3KKyeQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Colby would be a better choice if they don't want to sign Denver.

[Scott5114]

Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Kansas, as far east as Ellis, would like to beg to differ: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9504121,-99.560198,3a,37.5y,19.28h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szyumR6vpRWDYSZic3KKyeQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Colby would be a better choice if they don't want to sign Denver.

Why?

[Roadgeekteen]

Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

Kansas, as far east as Ellis, would like to beg to differ: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9504121,-99.560198,3a,37.5y,19.28h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szyumR6vpRWDYSZic3KKyeQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Colby would be a better choice if they don't want to sign Denver.

Why?

Closer than Limon and in state.

[hbelkins]

Seems like there's more support for Limon on eastbound I-70. Can we at least all agree that it should not be a primary control at any point on westbound I-70?

No. I feel the exact opposite. To me, Limon makes no sense on EASTBOUND 70, because it's not a major decision point for drivers heading east. However, going west, it is a major decision point between Denver and Colorado Springs.

Eastbound out of Denver, I'd probably sign Topeka.

[US 89]

To me, Limon makes no sense on EASTBOUND 70, because it's not a major decision point for drivers heading east.

False. It's where you split if you're taking 287 south towards Texas.

[JREwing78]

Like it or not, Limon is a crossroads for travelers both eastbound and westbound. It's not a big town, but it IS a major decision point for travelers in the area.