PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD: Relocating Kentucky

[kphoger]

Living in Southern IL/just north of Paducah and Western KY, I vote Midwest with Mid-South as the 2nd favorite, at least until I-69 is resolved at the KY/TN border

Having lived in southern IL (Herrin), I wouldn't have voted Midwest.  Mid-South would have been my vote.

[ilpt4u]

Living in Southern IL/just north of Paducah and Western KY, I vote Midwest with Mid-South as the 2nd favorite, at least until I-69 is resolved at the KY/TN border

Having lived in southern IL (Herrin), I wouldn't have voted Midwest.  Mid-South would have been my vote.

I did put in another post that Central States would be even better for Illinois on the whole, especially concerning Metro STL and various MS River Crossing projects that Illinois is involved with

If IL went Central, KY definitely not Midwest then, but Southeast or Mid-South, certainly

[Scott5114]

While I understand the logic in breaking up some states, putting W. TN and N. MS with AR/LA/TX doesn't make much sense.  90% of the Memphis metro population is in TN and MS.  The funding comes from Nashville and the family/migration/economic ties are stronger to the east than to the west.  Geo/topo differences at the river.  Keeping TN and MS each whole and in the Southeast makes more sense, although I admit the Southeast is already a large region for the board.

Moving Memphis west just because of 2 bridges, very iffy proposals for another, and 10% of the metro seems forced.

JMHO.  The world will keep turning either way.

We might revisit other regions in the future, but it will have to be some time after the Ohio Valley board disappears. We will have enough on our plate enacting this realignment without bringing up another one in the middle of it.

[someone17]

Having Kentucky in the Ohio River Valley Board is hilarious. Either way, KY stays with the Midwest. Road projects of the Ohio River say so.

[ITB]

For future consideration:

Mid-South
Tennessee
Kentucky
North Carolina

Deep South or South or Southeast
Georgia
Florida
South Carolina
Alabama
Mississippi

South Central or Southwest
Texas
Arkansas
Oklahoma
Louisiana

The Mid-South board is a misnomer, as Texas is most certainly not located in the Mid-South. With five major metropolitan centers, Texas is so large and consequential, it perhaps deserves a board in and of itself.

[ran4sh]

NC should be with SC and probably GA too. I would group them as:

TX, LA, OK, AR

KY, TN, AL, MS

FL, GA, SC, NC

[Scott5114]

We might revisit other regions in the future, but it will have to be some time after the Ohio Valley board disappears. We will have enough on our plate enacting this realignment without bringing up another one in the middle of it.

[ITB]

We might revisit other regions in the future, but it will have to be some time after the Ohio Valley board disappears. We will have enough on our plate enacting this realignment without bringing up another one in the middle of it.

Yes, indeed. I, and I'm sure many other board members, appreciated the hard work you're putting to realign the boards. Thank you!

[hbelkins]

We might revisit other regions in the future, but it will have to be some time after the Ohio Valley board disappears. We will have enough on our plate enacting this realignment without bringing up another one in the middle of it.

Has the decision been made and I missed the official announcement?

[Scott5114]

Since the "remove the Ohio Valley board" question passed by a wide margin, we are committed to making that change (and I have already started the process of moving the oldest threads to their new homes). The one thing that is still somewhat in the air (and thus why we haven't made an "official" announcement) is where Kentucky is ending up. Because the poll was so close (and the result was surprising to us, my original proposal to the other staff presupposed it would end up in Southeast), we are essentially just verifying that moving Kentucky to Midwest/Great Lakes will not cause any issues the community may not have evaluated during the polling period and that we are all on board with implementing that change.

[ilpt4u]

Since the "remove the Ohio Valley board" question passed by a wide margin, we are committed to making that change (and I have already started the process of moving the oldest threads to their new homes). The one thing that is still somewhat in the air (and thus why we haven't made an "official" announcement) is where Kentucky is ending up. Because the poll was so close (and the result was surprising to us, my original proposal to the other staff presupposed it would end up in Southeast), we are essentially just verifying that moving Kentucky to Midwest/Great Lakes will not cause any issues the community may not have evaluated during the polling period and that we are all on board with implementing that change.

I want to preface this next comment with this first: I appreciate the work being done to find a new Kentucky home here @aaroads. And I fully respect the Admins' decision to place Kentucky where they feel best, including with Poll input

That said, since the polling was close, and with no majority, would a second round/runoff poll be possible with Midwest and Southeast as the only two options? Or are you all too far along in "the process"  for this possibility?

[Alps]

Since the "remove the Ohio Valley board" question passed by a wide margin, we are committed to making that change (and I have already started the process of moving the oldest threads to their new homes). The one thing that is still somewhat in the air (and thus why we haven't made an "official" announcement) is where Kentucky is ending up. Because the poll was so close (and the result was surprising to us, my original proposal to the other staff presupposed it would end up in Southeast), we are essentially just verifying that moving Kentucky to Midwest/Great Lakes will not cause any issues the community may not have evaluated during the polling period and that we are all on board with implementing that change.

I want to preface this next comment with this first: I appreciate the work being done to find a new Kentucky home here @aaroads. And I fully respect the Admins' decision to place Kentucky where they feel best, including with Poll input

That said, since the polling was close, and with no majority, would a second round/runoff poll be possible with Midwest and Southeast as the only two options? Or are you all too far along in "the process"  for this possibility?

33 southern votes, 34 othern votes

[webny99]

My one thought that may fall under "issues the community may not have evaluated" is that many users seemed to prefer Midwest/Great Lakes for Kentucky on the basis of its connectivity road-wise to other Midwestern states, including several major Ohio River crossings and upcoming projects. However, defining regions in this way (to keep all shared projects in the same board as much as possible) is what led to split states in the first place, which is exactly what we're trying to reduce/avoid with the removal of the Ohio Valley board. There seems to be general consensus that Kentucky is, indeed, a southeastern state (and just click Kentucky on Google Maps: the opening description is "Kentucky, a southeastern state"), so trying to fit it into another board because of one or more specific threads/road projects/etc. seems to me like a textbook example of "not seeing the forest for the trees".

In the big picture, since this is more or less a permanent change, I'd much rather have the state located in the region it's more closely associated with, and let the individual threads fall where they may. The alternative is that years from now, when we have users questioning why Kentucky, a southeastern state, is in the Midwest board, and the answer is more or less, "It made sense when there was several projects along the border with other states, but those were completed years ago now", the decision to place Kentucky with the Midwest is going to look rather short-sighted (unless there's a broader shift in public perception about where Kentucky is located, which is outside anyone's control).


I would support a run-off poll if that's something that would be considered (although I'm obviously biased given what I just stated above).

[Scott5114]

I'm not entirely certain the "Kentucky roads more associated with the states along the northern border" is necessarily a temporary situation, given the location of Kentucky's major population centers.


In any case, any future confusion could be skirted by retitling the board "Midwest, Great Lakes, and Ohio Valley".

[ITB]

The "Midwest, Great Lakes" forum seems to have solidified with the combining of Indiana and Minnesota into one forum. Moreover, all the states that now comprise Midwest, Great Lakes "touch on" a Great Lake. As it now is, that forum category seems appropriate and complete.

As for Kentucky, perhaps, for now, it's best to put it the Southeast. Later, if so desired, it, perhaps, could be moved into a new Mid-South forum, along with Tennessee and North Carolina. But that's a decision for later.

And, speaking of the Mid-South forum, perhaps that forum should be retitled "South Central". That would more accurately reflect the geographical location of Texas and nearby states. Moreover, that's how that area of the country is usually referred to: South Central.

One more forum heading matter. Perhaps the Pacific Southwest forum, comprised of California, Nevada, and Hawaii, should be renamed to "Pacific West". Again, that heading would more correctly reflect the location of those states. None of the aforementioned states are in the Southwest.

Please be assured your tireless efforts to reorganize the regional boards are very much appreciated.

[NWI_Irish96]

We might revisit other regions in the future, but it will have to be some time after the Ohio Valley board disappears. We will have enough on our plate enacting this realignment without bringing up another one in the middle of it.

Has the decision been made and I missed the official announcement?

I don't think there was an announcement but the vote is closed and Midwest got the most votes.

[webny99]

I'm not entirely certain the "Kentucky roads more associated with the states along the northern border" is necessarily a temporary situation, given the location of Kentucky's major population centers.

[img]

In any case, any future confusion could be skirted by retitling the board "Midwest, Great Lakes, and Ohio Valley".

That's 100% fair, and I wasn't trying to say that ALL overlap will be temporary, since there will always be discussions that overlap with adjacent states, but I was just trying to zoom out and and look at it holistically, rather than in terms of "what threads will go in what board".

There's also the fact that much of southern IL/IN/OH have as much or more in common with the south than they do the midwest, so the parts of those states adjacent to Kentucky aren't exactly clear-cut Midwest either (they just happen to be part of states that are, in the same way that Louisville/Cincinnati suburbs aren't exactly clear-cut Southeast despite being in a state that is (IMO)).

[kphoger]

In any case, any future confusion could be skirted by retitling the board "Midwest, Great Lakes, and Ohio Valley".

or .. Midwest, Great Lakes, and whatever tf Kentucky is

[hbelkins]

I'm just going to throw this out there...

I've traveled all over Kentucky, and have been in all 120 counties multiple times. I've driven the main roads and the back roads.

If you look at business names that incorporate a region of the United States, you'll find that there are a plethora of places with "Southern" in their names and very few with "Midwest" in their names.

[NWI_Irish96]

I'm just going to throw this out there...

I've traveled all over Kentucky, and have been in all 120 counties multiple times. I've driven the main roads and the back roads.

If you look at business names that incorporate a region of the United States, you'll find that there are a plethora of places with "Southern" in their names and very few with "Midwest" in their names.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that Kentucky is culturally more Midwestern than Southern. What I, and a plurality of voters have suggested is that due to the Ohio River, there are more road project overlaps with Indiana, Ohio and Illinois than with other states.

[hotdogPi]

This was a close vote. If this was Wikipedia, the likely decision would be to extend it for another week.

Also wondering if a different voting system would have changed things. If the Mid-South people voted Southeast and the Mid-Atlantic people voted Midwest, that would have been 34-33 – a difference of only one vote instead of three, and who knows if Mid-Atlantic would actually have put Midwest over Southeast. (This is why I suggested approval voting instead of plurality voting.)

I'm neutral on the actual question itself and did not vote in it.

[webny99]

I'm just going to throw this out there...

I've traveled all over Kentucky, and have been in all 120 counties multiple times. I've driven the main roads and the back roads.

If you look at business names that incorporate a region of the United States, you'll find that there are a plethora of places with "Southern" in their names and very few with "Midwest" in their names.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that Kentucky is culturally more Midwestern than Southern. What I, and a plurality of voters have suggested is that due to the Ohio River, there are more road project overlaps with Indiana, Ohio and Illinois than with other states.

... however - and this is what I've tried to explain in my previous two posts - nobody is debating that either, but that doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that Kentucky should be in the Midwest board.

Shared project threads are maybe, what, 15-20% of all Kentucky discussion, at most? If we're agreed that Kentucky is more southern than midwestern, putting it in the Midwest board is making those 15-20% of threads easier to find, while making the other 80-85% of threads harder to find.

The worst-case scenario for putting Kentucky in Southeast is that someone looking for a specific project thread - already knowing that it spans two states - has to check the boards for both states.

The worst-case scenario for putting Kentucky in Midwest is that someone looking to start or add to a Kentucky discussion either a) unknowingly posts it in the Southeast board, and it has to be moved, or b) has to search two boards to find where it should be located, and is left wondering why it's in Midwest when it's traditionally a southern state.

[webny99]

This was a close vote. If this was Wikipedia, the likely decision would be to extend it for another week.

Also wondering if a different voting system would have changed things. If the Mid-South people voted Southeast and the Mid-Atlantic people voted Midwest, that would have been 34-33 – a difference of only one vote instead of three, and who knows if Mid-Atlantic would actually have put Midwest over Southeast. (This is why I suggested approval voting instead of plurality voting.)

Yes, I don't think it's fair to assume that anyone who voted for Mid-Atlantic had Midwest as their second choice.

When looking at the traditional US divisions, Southeast also includes Virginia and West Virginia. That won't be the case here, but if you voted for Mid-Atlantic in hopes of grouping KY with WV/VA, Southeast would probably make more sense as your second choice.

[Henry]

The reason I voted for Southeast was mainly because I view KY as a Southern state, but now that I think about it, I wonder if it would be worth actually moving it there, due to the northern border touching the Midwestern states (and therefore, cities like Evansville, IN and Cincinnati, OH, which would be a valid argument against my decision). With it being the only state left in the Ohio Valley category, I'm leaning more towards Midwest, even though I never see it as such. If we were to vote for a second choice, I'd reluctantly take Midwest, because Mid-Atlantic just does not fit, and the northern border alone prevents it from being categorized as Mid-South, which I feel is where all of TN should be anyway.

[NWI_Irish96]

I'm just going to throw this out there...

I've traveled all over Kentucky, and have been in all 120 counties multiple times. I've driven the main roads and the back roads.

If you look at business names that incorporate a region of the United States, you'll find that there are a plethora of places with "Southern" in their names and very few with "Midwest" in their names.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that Kentucky is culturally more Midwestern than Southern. What I, and a plurality of voters have suggested is that due to the Ohio River, there are more road project overlaps with Indiana, Ohio and Illinois than with other states.

... however - and this is what I've tried to explain in my previous two posts - nobody is debating that either, but that doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that Kentucky should be in the Midwest board.

Shared project threads are maybe, what, 15-20% of all Kentucky discussion, at most? If we're agreed that Kentucky is more southern than midwestern, putting it in the Midwest board is making those 15-20% of threads easier to find, while making the other 80-85% of threads harder to find.

The worst-case scenario for putting Kentucky in Southeast is that someone looking for a specific project thread - already knowing that it spans two states - has to check the boards for both states.

The worst-case scenario for putting Kentucky in Midwest is that someone looking to start or add to a Kentucky discussion either a) unknowingly posts it in the Southeast board, and it has to be moved, or b) has to search two boards to find where it should be located, and is left wondering why it's in Midwest when it's traditionally a southern state.

Having Kentucky listed among the Midwest states on the main regional page makes those 80-85% easier to find.