Which state has the BEST overall highway/freeway connectivity?

[Rothman]

Saratoga is nothing?  I'll try to remember that the next time the Northway is a parking lot all the way down to the Thruway.

Fun fact: the two worse weeks for Northway traffic in the entire year and the ones leading up to Labor Day and Travers.

Given the scale of the thread, yes.  It's like saying Fall River, MA isn't connected to Norfhmapton, MA and therefore MA should be dinged a few points.

[CoreySamson]

Doing the "largest pair unconnected" analysis for Texas...

#1. Houston (2.3M)

#2. San Antonio (1.45M)
1-2 (I-10)

#3. Dallas (1.3M)
1-3 (I-45)
2-3 (I-35)

#4. Austin (964K)
1-4 (Well connected with I-10/SH 71 and US 290 expressways [which is enough for it to count in my books], but not full freeway)
2-4 (I-35)
3-4 (I-35)

#5. Fort Worth (935K)
(Part of DFW metro, see #3)

#6. El Paso (678K)
1-6 (I-10)
2-6 (I-10)
3-6 (I-20/I-10)
4-6 (No great connection, but fastest route is around 75% freeway)

#7. Arlington (393K)
(Part of DFW metro, see #3)

#8. Corpus Christi (318K)
1-8 (US 77/US 59 is good enough)
2-8 (I-37)
3-8 (I-37/I-35)
4-8 (I-37/I-35)
6-8 (I-37/I-10)

Overall largest unconnected pairs:
- Austin - El Paso
- Lubbock - Houston
- Lubbock - San Antonio
- Lubbock - Dallas
- Lubbock - Austin


As a result, I think Texas's biggest population centers are very well connected, but good connections suffer between them and western Texas (which is no shame considering how big Texas is).

[webny99]

That's connecting nothing to nothing.

Rochester, Syracuse, and Buffalo to the eastern Adirondacks?? That's not nothing at all, that's basically the Upstate NY knockoff version of Denver to the Rockies. Concur with all of what vdeane said. It's a connection I've made myself close to a dozen times.

Rochester, Syracuse and Bufallo to...nothing.

We were talking about urban connectivity rather than just getting people to their cabins.

Saratoga Springs and most of Saratoga County is urbanized and accounts for almost a third of the greater Albany area. Plus Glens Falls (15k), Plattsburgh (20k), most of Vermont including Burlington (45k), etc. I'm not putting it on the same level as a large metro to large metro, but it is notable in the context of the "largest pair unconnected" discussion.

Saratoga is nothing?  I'll try to remember that the next time the Northway is a parking lot all the way down to the Thruway.

Fun fact: the two worse weeks for Northway traffic in the entire year and the ones leading up to Labor Day and Travers.

Given the scale of the thread, yes.  It's like saying Fall River, MA isn't connected to Norfhmapton, MA and therefore MA should be dinged a few points.

Except that Fall River is connected to Northampton by freeway or very close to it. Even if you don't count MA 146 south of the Mass Pike, it's a lot better than NY 67.  But either way, I didn't bring up the connectivity between Western NY and I-87 to ding NY; if anything it speaks well of the state's connectivity that I even thought it was worth mentioning in a statewide context.

[Rothman]

That's connecting nothing to nothing.

Rochester, Syracuse, and Buffalo to the eastern Adirondacks?? That's not nothing at all, that's basically the Upstate NY knockoff version of Denver to the Rockies. Concur with all of what vdeane said. It's a connection I've made myself close to a dozen times.

Rochester, Syracuse and Bufallo to...nothing.

We were talking about urban connectivity rather than just getting people to their cabins.

Saratoga Springs and most of Saratoga County is urbanized and accounts for almost a third of the greater Albany area. Plus Glens Falls (15k), Plattsburgh (20k), most of Vermont including Burlington (45k), etc. I'm not putting it on the same level as a large metro to large metro, but it is notable in the context of the "largest pair unconnected" discussion.

Saratoga is nothing?  I'll try to remember that the next time the Northway is a parking lot all the way down to the Thruway.

Fun fact: the two worse weeks for Northway traffic in the entire year and the ones leading up to Labor Day and Travers.

Given the scale of the thread, yes.  It's like saying Fall River, MA isn't connected to Norfhmapton, MA and therefore MA should be dinged a few points.

Except that Fall River is connected to Northampton by freeway or very close to it. Even if you don't count MA 146 south of the Mass Pike, it's a lot better than NY 67.  But either way, I didn't bring up the connectivity between Western NY and I-87 to ding NY; if anything it speaks well of the state's connectivity that I even thought it was worth mentioning in a statewide context.

No community north of Albany counts as fhe largest of anything in NY, especially spread over as many miles you're talking about:  Saratoga to Plattsburgh (130 miles)?  I suppose if you draw a rectangle large enough you can find a lot of people anywhere.  That's the same distance from Pittsfield to Boston, so should we talk about the entire state of MA as a single urban area (where western MA jokes about shutting off the Quabbin?)?

I also thought we didn't like leaving the state or whatever other silly rules people have come up with in this thread (the freeway doesn't clip the downtown of the city and therefore doesn't connect...).

[hotdogPi]

I also thought we didn't like leaving the state

I thought leaving the state was allowed. Worcester and New Bedford are directly connected via 146 → 95 → 195.

[Rothman]

I also thought we didn't like leaving the state

I thought leaving the state was allowed. Worcester and New Bedford are directly connected via 146 → 95 → 195.

See the previous discussion about West Virginia.

[webny99]

No community north of Albany counts as fhe largest of anything in NY, especially spread over as many miles you're talking about:  Saratoga to Plattsburgh (130 miles)?  I suppose if you draw a rectangle large enough you can find a lot of people anywhere.

To spell it out a bit more... Saratoga Springs is the 22nd largest city in NY.  In my list above, I got down to #10<>#14 before finding any pair that wasn't connected. This particular non-connection involves the #2, #4, #5, #9, #10, and #13 cities to #22 (which is itself part of an urbanized area, plus everything north of there including #30 Plattsburgh and #38 Glens Falls).

In terms of drawing a rectangle, you're really looking at two disconnected rectangles: one from Amsterdam west to Buffalo, and one from Clifton Park north to Plattsburgh (and technically east to encompass most of Vermont). The first is roughly 4 million population, the second roughly 300-400k in NY and that much again in Vermont. It's not the worst non-connection in the world, but it is a notable one that would be four lanes divided in many (most?) other states.

[Dirt Roads]

I also thought we didn't like leaving the state

I thought leaving the state was allowed. Worcester and New Bedford are directly connected via 146 → 95 → 195.

See the previous discussion about West Virginia.

All of this depends on the semantics.  If you are trying to judge whether any particular large, well-funded state has spent its money on highway connectivity, then the need to leave the state is probably a sign that the state had [other priorities].  West Virginia has always been financially strapped.  But I think some degree of common sense needs to be applied here.  The connectivity between Wheeling -and- Morgantown/Fairmont/Clarksburg via I-79 in Little Washington (Pennsylvania) makes sense, but using that route to "connect" to Charleston/Huntington doesn't.  Fortunately, Ohio chipped in with OH-7 and connects Weirton/Wheeling/Moundsville with Parkersburg/Charleston.  So with that in mind, how would Weirton fare in connectivity with Morgantown/Fairmont/Clarksburg when connecting via Carnegie (ergo almost Pittsburgh)?  Fortunately, Toll PA-576 (Southern Beltway) cuts a chunk of that off nowadays.

All that being said, Rhode Island stands directly in the path between Worcester -and- New Bedford (just like Western Pennsylvania in the direct path between Wheeling -and- Morgantown).  Makes sense to me, and given the historical issues with roads and towns in New England, it doesn't make any sense for folks in Massachusetts to spend more money further connecting the two.

[Rothman]

No community north of Albany counts as fhe largest of anything in NY, especially spread over as many miles you're talking about:  Saratoga to Plattsburgh (130 miles)?  I suppose if you draw a rectangle large enough you can find a lot of people anywhere.

To spell it out a bit more... Saratoga Springs is the 22nd largest city in NY.  In my list above, I got down to #10<>#14 before finding any pair that wasn't connected. This particular non-connection involves the #2, #4, #5, #9, #10, and #13 cities to #22 (which is itself part of an urbanized area, plus everything north of there including #30 Plattsburgh and #38 Glens Falls).

In terms of drawing a rectangle, you're really looking at two disconnected rectangles: one from Amsterdam west to Buffalo, and one from Clifton Park north to Plattsburgh (and technically east to encompass most of Vermont). The first is roughly 4 million population, the second roughly 300-400k in NY and that much again in Vermont. It's not the worst non-connection in the world, but it is a notable one that would be four lanes divided in many (most?) other states.

Despite your fanciful and unique creations of your own large regions in NY, it really just does boil down to someone saying that the lack of a four-lane connection between Syracuse and Glens Falls or Rochester and Plattsburgh or whatever else is significant...

...which, by all accounts of traffic patterns, it isn't.  When it comes down to it, connections are from point-to-point, not made up fanciful rectangle to made up fanciful rectangle.

That said, I do agree with the much earlier comments that Ithaca is isolated.  Not much can be done about that, though, due to terrain, conservation and local opposition.  Heck, there's even talk of some road diet on NY 13 coming in from the north now.

[sprjus4]

Four lane widening projects isn't always about traffic counts. It's about connectivity. At least in most states it is. Maybe New York is just different, but certainly something like that in Virginia would at least have four lane divided highway.

[Rothman]

Four lane widening projects isn't always about traffic counts. It's about connectivity. At least in most states it is. Maybe New York is just different, but certainly something like that in Virginia would at least have four lane divided highway.

Like what, exactly?

[webny99]

it really just does boil down to someone saying that the lack of a four-lane connection between Syracuse and Glens Falls or Rochester and Plattsburgh or whatever else is significant...

...which, by all accounts of traffic patterns, it isn't.

It's significant not only by my account of traffic patterns, but personal experience as well.  And you can't just look at AADT's on NY 67, because traffic is split between several different non-freeway/expressway corridors.

Despite your fanciful and unique creations of your own large regions in NY  [...]
When it comes down to it, connections are from point-to-point, not made up fanciful rectangle to made up fanciful rectangle.

Well, it wasn't me that suggested a rectangle. I was naming the actual cities. Even so, the Adirondacks are a case-in-point that not all major destinations are major cities.


Anyways... as we go in circles, this has given me a grand idea to take this over to fictional and see what I can come up with for an Amsterdam-Malta corridor.

[Rothman]

it really just does boil down to someone saying that the lack of a four-lane connection between Syracuse and Glens Falls or Rochester and Plattsburgh or whatever else is significant...

...which, by all accounts of traffic patterns, it isn't.

It's significant not only by my account of traffic patterns, but personal experience as well.  And you can't just look at AADT's on NY 67, because traffic is split between several different non-freeway/expressway corridors.

So...don't look at the data and just look at your own experience.  If I had a dime for every time I've had to throw out that argument...

And no, the traffic patterns do not warrant an urgent expansion along NY 67 or NY 29 or whatever other road.

Finally, since we've really just narrowed this down to an Amsterdam to Saratoga connection, that's one that matters little for this thread.

[JayhawkCO]

Four lane widening projects isn't always about traffic counts. It's about connectivity. At least in most states it is. Maybe New York is just different, but certainly something like that in Virginia would at least have four lane divided highway.

So, to give an analogy to the Adirondacks issue, do you think there should be four lane divided highways between Fort Collins and Montrose here in Colorado? After all, it's the 3rd largest city to the 2nd largest city west of the Front Range. That's not too far afield from Syracuse to Saratoga.

[roadman65]

Connecticut has a good overall freeway to highway connection, hence I-95 interchanging with every crossroad it crosses. You won't find Pennsylvania type situations here with many non interchangeable intersections.

[hbelkins]

West Virginia has two panhandles that make connectivity with the center of the state problematic.

[kphoger]

Wow, nobody has suggested Alaska?

[roadman65]

West Virginia has two panhandles that make connectivity with the center of the state problematic.

Not as bad as NW AZ being cut off by the Grand Canyon.

[sprjus4]

So...don't look at the data and just look at your own experience.  If I had a dime for every time I've had to throw out that argument...

I-95 in North and South Carolina have traffic volumes that generally are adequate for a rural 4 lane interstate highway. But when I travel them during peak season, they're often congested. Is widening not necessary / should be thrown out, just because strict data says otherwise?

[JayhawkCO]

So...don't look at the data and just look at your own experience.  If I had a dime for every time I've had to throw out that argument...

I-95 in North and South Carolina have traffic volumes that generally are adequate for a rural 4 lane interstate highway. But when I travel them during peak season, they're often congested. Is widening not necessary / should be thrown out, just because strict data says otherwise?

The problem is, why stop there? Why not have anecdotes drive all of our decisions? "I once got stuck behind a slow moving truck on the Dalton Highway. It needs to be four lanes."

[sprjus4]

So...don't look at the data and just look at your own experience.  If I had a dime for every time I've had to throw out that argument...

I-95 in North and South Carolina have traffic volumes that generally are adequate for a rural 4 lane interstate highway. But when I travel them during peak season, they're often congested. Is widening not necessary / should be thrown out, just because strict data says otherwise?

The problem is, why stop there? Why not have anecdotes drive all of our decisions? "I once got stuck behind a slow moving truck on the Dalton Highway. It needs to be four lanes."

I'm not saying anecdotes should decide everything at all... I'm merely saying you can't just throw them out altogether.

Stuck behind a slow moving truck? Let's look at other factors. How much traffic was on their road overall? Is there a lot of truck traffic? Steep grades? Are climbing lanes needed?

Many factors need to be looked at.

[JayhawkCO]

So...don't look at the data and just look at your own experience.  If I had a dime for every time I've had to throw out that argument...

I-95 in North and South Carolina have traffic volumes that generally are adequate for a rural 4 lane interstate highway. But when I travel them during peak season, they're often congested. Is widening not necessary / should be thrown out, just because strict data says otherwise?

The problem is, why stop there? Why not have anecdotes drive all of our decisions? "I once got stuck behind a slow moving truck on the Dalton Highway. It needs to be four lanes."

I'm not saying anecdotes should decide everything at all... I'm merely saying you can't just throw them out altogether.

Stuck behind a slow moving truck? Let's look at other factors. How much traffic was on their road overall? Is there a lot of truck traffic? Steep grades? Are climbing lanes needed?

Many factors need to be looked at.

Sure, but all of the questions you're asking about my truck example are data, not anecdotes.

[JayhawkCO]

Wow, nobody has suggested Alaska?

At least 10 of the top 25 cities in population are connected to the main highway network.

[Rothman]

So...don't look at the data and just look at your own experience.  If I had a dime for every time I've had to throw out that argument...

I-95 in North and South Carolina have traffic volumes that generally are adequate for a rural 4 lane interstate highway. But when I travel them during peak season, they're often congested. Is widening not necessary / should be thrown out, just because strict data says otherwise?

Yes.

[sprjus4]

^ It's funny, because over a hundred miles of widening are planned, with over 50 currently under construction