Limon should be a control city

[Flint1979]

If none of you people knew that Limon was a control city we wouldn't be having this discussion but for some reason Limon gets shot down by roadgeeks simply because it's not a big enough place? I've read up on control cities and one thing they mention is that there is not a limit on how big a place has to be in order to be a control city. Like I've said before Mackinac Bridge is a control city in Michigan, it's a bridge not a city and makes perfect sense as a control city, St. Ignace is used in the U.P. instead of Mackinac Bridge until you get to St. Ignace then Mackinac Bridge is used followed by Saginaw in the Lower Peninsula but St. Ignace is slightly bigger than Limon and pretty much a major stop on I-75 in the U.P.

I don't think the issue is size, it's the fact there's better control cities to use. I'm not arguing one way or another on the issue, I'm just pointing that out.

Like what? There really isn't anything out that way, the first city of any size in Kansas is Hays and that's 160 miles into the state. Burlington might be the only one that I could see that would make sense.

[sprjus4]

^ Topeka and Denver, long distance control cities.

That's where the vast majority of traffic on I-70 is bound. It's largely long-haul traffic.

At the very least, Denver should be used westbound on I-70 in the western part of Kansas, not Limon.

[Roadgeekteen]

If none of you people knew that Limon was a control city we wouldn't be having this discussion but for some reason Limon gets shot down by roadgeeks simply because it's not a big enough place? I've read up on control cities and one thing they mention is that there is not a limit on how big a place has to be in order to be a control city. Like I've said before Mackinac Bridge is a control city in Michigan, it's a bridge not a city and makes perfect sense as a control city, St. Ignace is used in the U.P. instead of Mackinac Bridge until you get to St. Ignace then Mackinac Bridge is used followed by Saginaw in the Lower Peninsula but St. Ignace is slightly bigger than Limon and pretty much a major stop on I-75 in the U.P.

But anyway Limon is fine as a control city, it's a known place in Colorado, it doesn't have to be known in New York or Massachusetts or Michigan but it is known in Colorado and considered a hub city in eastern Colorado due to the highway junction which is exactly why it's a control city, has nothing to do with the size of the community.

The Mackinac bridge is different from Limon because it is a major geographic feature that travelers know about. Limon is not. If North Dakota followed Colorado's rules, Dickinson would be signed on I-94 west of Bismarck, not Billings.

[kphoger]

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[roadman65]

What gets me is the fact that Grand Junction is used for I-70 West from Denver which is all the way across the state. Using that rationale you figure Salina, KS would be used opposite it.

With Limon being used, on the other hand, Vail would be one to use heading west.

[kphoger]

Vail is not a major highway junction.

[JayhawkCO]

What gets me is the fact that Grand Junction is used for I-70 West from Denver which is all the way across the state. Using that rationale you figure Salina, KS would be used opposite it.

With Limon being used, on the other hand, Vail would be one to use heading west.

If we were picking a mountain town to use, I'd pick Silverthorne over Vail. The Silverthorne/Frisco/Dillon/Breckenridge area is quite a bit larger than Vail.

[Flint1979]

If none of you people knew that Limon was a control city we wouldn't be having this discussion but for some reason Limon gets shot down by roadgeeks simply because it's not a big enough place? I've read up on control cities and one thing they mention is that there is not a limit on how big a place has to be in order to be a control city. Like I've said before Mackinac Bridge is a control city in Michigan, it's a bridge not a city and makes perfect sense as a control city, St. Ignace is used in the U.P. instead of Mackinac Bridge until you get to St. Ignace then Mackinac Bridge is used followed by Saginaw in the Lower Peninsula but St. Ignace is slightly bigger than Limon and pretty much a major stop on I-75 in the U.P.

But anyway Limon is fine as a control city, it's a known place in Colorado, it doesn't have to be known in New York or Massachusetts or Michigan but it is known in Colorado and considered a hub city in eastern Colorado due to the highway junction which is exactly why it's a control city, has nothing to do with the size of the community.

The Mackinac bridge is different from Limon because it is a major geographic feature that travelers know about. Limon is not. If North Dakota followed Colorado's rules, Dickinson would be signed on I-94 west of Bismarck, not Billings.

I beg to differ, travelers in that part of the country know where Limon is.

[Roadgeekteen]

Vail is not a major highway junction.

Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.

[Flint1979]

Vail is not a major highway junction.

Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.

That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.

[Roadgeekteen]

Vail is not a major highway junction.

Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.

That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.

Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.

[roadman65]

If Colorado was Texas, Topeka would be signed as is El Paso signed in San Antonio for I-10.  El Paso is much further away from San Antonio than Topeka is  from Denver.

[Flint1979]

Vail is not a major highway junction.

Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.

That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.

Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.

People do know what they are talking about when it comes to Limon. What is so hard about realizing that Limon is a hub city in eastern Colorado and is fine as a control city? I don't see why someone that doesn't even live in the area has a problem with it.

[kalvado]

Vail is not a major highway junction.

Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.

That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.

Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.

People do know what they are talking about when it comes to Limon. What is so hard about realizing that Limon is a hub city in eastern Colorado and is fine as a control city? I don't see why someone that doesn't even live in the area has a problem with it.

It's about who is driving those highways and who needs those control cities.
Locals may have tons of different references as they are more familiar with the area. They actually need less guidance anyway because of familiarity. Visitors and long haul traffic may be very different.
Honestly speaking, thanks to these discussions I no longer understand control cities role in the grand scheme of things.

[sprjus4]

Vail is not a major highway junction.

Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.

That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.

Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.

People do know what they are talking about when it comes to Limon. What is so hard about realizing that Limon is a hub city in eastern Colorado and is fine as a control city? I don't see why someone that doesn't even live in the area has a problem with it.

Isn't the purpose of control cities to guide long distance traffic? If I was long haul, and not a member of this forum, I would have no idea what Limon is, but Denver I would.

[kalvado]

Vail is not a major highway junction.

Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.

That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.

Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.

People do know what they are talking about when it comes to Limon. What is so hard about realizing that Limon is a hub city in eastern Colorado and is fine as a control city? I don't see why someone that doesn't even live in the area has a problem with it.

Isn't the purpose of control cities to guide long distance traffic? If I was long haul, and not a member of this forum, I would have no idea what Limon is, but Denver I would.

As a local traffic - say ~100 miles radius, I can definitely use control cities for more complex interchanges which I am not familiar with. Trip is short enough so I don't bother with directions, but I am not driving through that area to ooften. For example, toll road entrances past (now removed) toll booths can easily be confusing and less than logical as a lot of movements funneled into the same row of booths. Next thing you see past the booth is  westbound traffic has to turn eastward and go on a flyover making a 270. And there is some 300 feet of road to choose the proper lane.  That's where control cities help me a lot.

[roadman65]

Control cities are a help, but in suburban areas with many cities lined up one right after another it can be confusing.   That is why the Garden State Parkway in NJ didn't use them until recently. 

The GSP picked Woodbridge from the Jersey Shore region NB despite both US 9 and NJ 35 paralleling it as its local use roads both using The Amboys as a NB control. That's cause Woodbridge is where both the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway intersect and near Staten Island and a major highway hub over Perth Amboy next to it acting as a sort of gateway to Northern New Jersey and NYC.

Even the Delaware Memorial Bridge was a fine control as it was a crucial link between the Northeast highway network and the Mid Atlantic road network and people knew it connected NJ's turnpike with I-95 and either US 13 or 301 which are primary corridors to head further south from New Jersey which links at its other end major routes to New York, New England, and Canada.

Bottom line is control cities should be familiar points and not a small town like Limon over bigger Denver.

[kalvado]

Control cities are a help, but in suburban areas with many cities lined up one right after another it can be confusing.   That is why the Garden State Parkway in NJ didn't use them until recently. 

The GSP picked Woodbridge from the Jersey Shore region NB despite both US 9 and NJ 35 paralleling it as its local use roads both using The Amboys as a NB control. That's cause Woodbridge is where both the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway intersect and near Staten Island and a major highway hub over Perth Amboy next to it acting as a sort of gateway to Northern New Jersey and NYC.

Even the Delaware Memorial Bridge was a fine control as it was a crucial link between the Northeast highway network and the Mid Atlantic road network and people knew it connected NJ's turnpike with I-95 and either US 13 or 301 which are primary corridors to head further south from New Jersey which links at its other end major routes to New York, New England, and Canada.

Bottom line is control cities should be familiar points and not a small town like Limon over bigger Denver.

Familiar points to whom?
What @JayhawkCO is saying, Limon is a familiar point locally. And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is (somewhere on east coast, maybe?)

[hotdogPi]

And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is

It's the bridge to the state of Delaware, which people could easily guess (although it's somewhat "right for the wrong reasons" because the bridge is named after the river and not the state).

[kphoger]

Vail is not a major highway junction.

Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.

That doesn't mean anything in regards to Limon being a control city on I-70.

Of course it does. Control cities are meant to help people navigate. The city is useless if people don't know what the hell place the DOTs are talking about.

No.

having heard of a place  ≠  knowing where that place is or what highway goes there.

Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah.  They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.

I grew up in northwestern Kansas.  At the time, I don't know that even I could have told you for sure just where Vail was.  But everyone in the area sure as heck knew where Limon was, because that was the decision point for going to Denver or Colorado Springs.  And any long-distance traveler heading to Colorado Springs from the east would certainly have it in his mind that Limon is where he needs to switch from I-70 to US-24.  It makes very good sense as a control city for westbound traffic.

However, I'm far less sold on Limon's utility as a control city for eastbound traffic.  US-287 has less than half the traffic as US-24.  It's useful as a decision point for traffic going to Amarillo, though, and I don't think there's a very good alternative control city anywhere between Limon and Hays.

[hotdogPi]

Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah.  They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.

What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)

[kphoger]

Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah.  They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.

What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)

Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.

I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well.  The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.

It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.

[roadman65]

Control cities are a help, but in suburban areas with many cities lined up one right after another it can be confusing.   That is why the Garden State Parkway in NJ didn't use them until recently. 

The GSP picked Woodbridge from the Jersey Shore region NB despite both US 9 and NJ 35 paralleling it as its local use roads both using The Amboys as a NB control. That's cause Woodbridge is where both the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway intersect and near Staten Island and a major highway hub over Perth Amboy next to it acting as a sort of gateway to Northern New Jersey and NYC.

Even the Delaware Memorial Bridge was a fine control as it was a crucial link between the Northeast highway network and the Mid Atlantic road network and people knew it connected NJ's turnpike with I-95 and either US 13 or 301 which are primary corridors to head further south from New Jersey which links at its other end major routes to New York, New England, and Canada.

Bottom line is control cities should be familiar points and not a small town like Limon over bigger Denver.

Familiar points to whom?
What @JayhawkCO is saying, Limon is a familiar point locally. And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is (somewhere on east coast, maybe?)

To those familiar with the area. Many who live in Denver won't be using the NJ Turnpike as much as people on the east coast traveling I-70 in the Central US.  The Delaware Memorial Bridge is familiar with the long haulers on the East Coast.

You're never going to get a perfect control city except maybe New York being most everyone knows it's the biggest US city, but if you're complaining about a bridge on the east coast you'll be happy to know the MUTCD forced New Jersey on its turnpike to use Wilmington instead of the crossing.

[hotdogPi]

By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.

[kphoger]

My own preference is for two control cities, one smaller and one bigger.  So I'd prefer seeing Denver all the way from Kansas City, with smaller ones listed underneath (Topeka, Salina, Hays, Limon);  Kansas City all the way from Denver, with smaller ones listed underneath.