Limon should be a control city

[roadman65]

One thing I must admit, Limon is not as bad as Plymouth Meeting used by PennDOT on I-476 NB between Chester and Plymouth Meeting.

Who the heck knows where Plymouth Meeting is?

[kalvado]

Control cities are a help, but in suburban areas with many cities lined up one right after another it can be confusing.   That is why the Garden State Parkway in NJ didn't use them until recently. 

The GSP picked Woodbridge from the Jersey Shore region NB despite both US 9 and NJ 35 paralleling it as its local use roads both using The Amboys as a NB control. That's cause Woodbridge is where both the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway intersect and near Staten Island and a major highway hub over Perth Amboy next to it acting as a sort of gateway to Northern New Jersey and NYC.

Even the Delaware Memorial Bridge was a fine control as it was a crucial link between the Northeast highway network and the Mid Atlantic road network and people knew it connected NJ's turnpike with I-95 and either US 13 or 301 which are primary corridors to head further south from New Jersey which links at its other end major routes to New York, New England, and Canada.

Bottom line is control cities should be familiar points and not a small town like Limon over bigger Denver.

Familiar points to whom?
What @JayhawkCO is saying, Limon is a familiar point locally. And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is (somewhere on east coast, maybe?)

To those familiar with the area. Many who live in Denver won't be using the NJ Turnpike as much as people on the east coast traveling I-70 in the Central US.  The Delaware Memorial Bridge is familiar with the long haulers on the East Coast.

You're never going to get a perfect control city except maybe New York being most everyone knows it's the biggest US city, but if you're complaining about a bridge on the east coast you'll be happy to know the MUTCD forced New Jersey on its turnpike to use Wilmington instead of the crossing.

I would say MSAs with 2M people or more are no-brainers - that's 35 points. Most of them are on the coast, though. Drop the threshold to 1M, and there are 20 more - possibly less known.
And looks like this thread significantly reflects on that - those closer to oceans are used to bigger cities, while further inland people look at things a bit different.

[kalvado]

Control cities are a help, but in suburban areas with many cities lined up one right after another it can be confusing.   That is why the Garden State Parkway in NJ didn't use them until recently. 

The GSP picked Woodbridge from the Jersey Shore region NB despite both US 9 and NJ 35 paralleling it as its local use roads both using The Amboys as a NB control. That's cause Woodbridge is where both the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway intersect and near Staten Island and a major highway hub over Perth Amboy next to it acting as a sort of gateway to Northern New Jersey and NYC.

Even the Delaware Memorial Bridge was a fine control as it was a crucial link between the Northeast highway network and the Mid Atlantic road network and people knew it connected NJ's turnpike with I-95 and either US 13 or 301 which are primary corridors to head further south from New Jersey which links at its other end major routes to New York, New England, and Canada.

Bottom line is control cities should be familiar points and not a small town like Limon over bigger Denver.

Familiar points to whom?
What @JayhawkCO is saying, Limon is a familiar point locally. And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is (somewhere on east coast, maybe?)

To those familiar with the area. Many who live in Denver won't be using the NJ Turnpike as much as people on the east coast traveling I-70 in the Central US.  The Delaware Memorial Bridge is familiar with the long haulers on the East Coast.

You're never going to get a perfect control city except maybe New York being most everyone knows it's the biggest US city, but if you're complaining about a bridge on the east coast you'll be happy to know the MUTCD forced New Jersey on its turnpike to use Wilmington instead of the crossing.

Oh, and with that approach you have no right to complain about Limon if someone from CO  tells you "it is good enough for us"... Just your own logic!

[SEWIGuy]

Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah.  They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.

What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)

Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.

I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well.  The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.

It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.

No, the Dells are much more known, and a larger destination than Tomah.

[roadman65]

Who's complaining. I'm just stating my opinion, but mostly addressing others who complain about Limon, which there are a few just like some don't like other choices in other states and are vocal about it from time to time.

[Roadgeekteen]

By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.

Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES  without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.

[sprjus4]

Who's complaining. I'm just stating my opinion, but mostly addressing others who complain about Limon, which there are a few just like some don't like other choices in other states and are vocal about it from time to time.

I think some users are missing this point... just because we point out our opinion or state an opposing viewpoint, we're not "complaining" . It doesn't -bother- me that Limon is signed, I personally couldn't care that much - I'm just simply stating my opinion on it when it's brought up.

[JayhawkCO]

By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.

Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES  without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.

Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?

[HighwayStar]

By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.

Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES  without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.

Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?

I can agree that state lines should not be control cities, a state line is not really a destination, but a waypoint.
However, I would be a fan of making all state lines a mandatory 2nd tier on millage signs.

[jeffandnicole]

And I bet a lot of his Denver neighbors don't know where Delaware Memorial Bridge is

It's the bridge to the state of Delaware, which people could easily guess (although it's somewhat "right for the wrong reasons" because the bridge is named after the river and not the state).

So if I'm already in Delaware, taking the Delaware Memorial Bridge takes me to Delaware?

[Roadgeekteen]

By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.

Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES  without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.

Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?

I don't support what Chicago does. But in rare situations, a state does make sense. On I-70 in Colorado, you are going towards Kansas. Anywhere in Kansas would use I-70 for at least part of the route coming from Denver. With no better options, I would be fine with Kansas. I also didn't mind "NH/Maine" for I-95 north. It's clear that for all destinations in those states, taking I-95 or I-495 north is the best move, and the states proper are more famous than any city in said states.

[Scott5114]

By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.

Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES  without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.

Because they are functionally useless for navigation purposes.

Let's say we live in a universe where there are no control cities, only control states.

You're driving I-35 southbound into Oklahoma City. You come to the exit for I-40 east, Arkansas. All good so far. Now, staying on I-35 south, you merge onto westbound I-40. Your options are I-35 south, Texas, and I-40 west, Texas. You decide to go west on I-40 through downtown, toward Texas. In a few dozen miles, your options will be I-40 west, Texas; I-44 west, Texas; and I-44 east, Missouri.

Obviously it would be ludicrous to sign the Oklahoma highway system this way. But it would be entirely accurate, it just overlooks the fact that despite the fact that Dallas, Wichita Falls, and Amarillo are all in Texas, they are nowhere near one another, and not all routes that lead to those places will bring you to your intended destination, just a point that happens to be in the same state.

Likewise, following I-70 eastbound out of Denver will eventually bring you to Kansas, but staying on it until you enter Kansas is not necessarily the best route to all points in Kansas.

[LilianaUwU]

Only roadgeeks would be anal to the point of making a multi-page debate on an April Fools thread.

[zachary_amaryllis]

Vail is not a major highway junction.

Vail is also way way way more famous than Limon.

I can think of like 100 very famous people that live in Limon. Probably going to continue living there for a long time.

[JayhawkCO]

By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.

Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES  without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.

Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?

I don't support what Chicago does. But in rare situations, a state does make sense. On I-70 in Colorado, you are going towards Kansas. Anywhere in Kansas would use I-70 for at least part of the route coming from Denver. With no better options, I would be fine with Kansas. I also didn't mind "NH/Maine" for I-95 north. It's clear that for all destinations in those states, taking I-95 or I-495 north is the best move, and the states proper are more famous than any city in said states.

You're right. Anyone heading to Kansas would use I-70 for part of their travels. They'd use it at least as far as Limon where they'd have to make a decision, right?

[SEWIGuy]

By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.

Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES  without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.

Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?

If you are on the Tri-State Tollway, you are either headed in the general direction of Wisconsin or Indiana.  It makes perfect sense considering the highway ends within a few miles of either border. They are always paired with one other so people who are directionally confused understand that taking one ramp gets you in the general direction of one, while taking another gets you in the general direction of another.

And ironically, if you are on the Tri-State and heading to Gary, Indianapolis or Evansville, you would go to Indiana before making your next route change anyway.

[kirbykart]

Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah.  They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.

What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)

Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.

I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well.  The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.

It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.

No, the Dells are much more known, and a larger destination than Tomah.

Wow, I'm surprised Wisconsin Dells is actually the name of a city. I thought it was just the name of a region.

[thspfc]

We made quite a leap in logic here . . .

Let's say we live in a universe where there are no control cities, only control states.

Is not valid justification for control states never existing in any cases.

Control cities are case-by-case. Any mention of "always"  or "never"  or "only"  is an automatic no for me.

[Roadgeekteen]

By the way, I think "Kansas" is fine on I-70 eastbound in Colorado. Unlike many other control states, it's valid for all of Kansas, at least as a first step (e.g. for Dodge City or Wichita, you'll be on I-70 for the first part of the journey). This is unlike New Hampshire's use of "To All Maine Points" on I-95 where NH 16 splits and some of the inland areas of Maine are better reached by ignoring the Maine sign and getting on NH 16. I'm not that familiar with Illinois's control states, but I believe they're even worse in this regard than NH's signing of Maine.

Whenever someone brings up control states, a bunch of users always raid the thread with cries of AH I HATE CONTROL STATES  without actually giving an explanation to why they hate them.

Because they're not specific. When you are within 10 miles of the Illinois/Indiana state line, where, exactly, in Indiana are you heading? Gary? Indianapolis? Evansville?

I don't support what Chicago does. But in rare situations, a state does make sense. On I-70 in Colorado, you are going towards Kansas. Anywhere in Kansas would use I-70 for at least part of the route coming from Denver. With no better options, I would be fine with Kansas. I also didn't mind "NH/Maine" for I-95 north. It's clear that for all destinations in those states, taking I-95 or I-495 north is the best move, and the states proper are more famous than any city in said states.

You're right. Anyone heading to Kansas would use I-70 for part of their travels. They'd use it at least as far as Limon where they'd have to make a decision, right?

I've always said that Limon is alright eastbound due to the lack of good options. It's westbound where I have a big problem, with Denver 90 miles up the road.

[thspfc]

Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah.  They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.

What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)

Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.

I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well.  The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.

It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.

Wisconsin Dells is far more well known than Tomah by Wisconsinites, Midwesterners, and national travelers alike. I honestly haven't met a single person from Madison who knows where Tomah is, beyond "it's far, isn't it?"

[Roadgeekteen]

Yeah, plenty of people all over the country have heard of Vail, but that doesn't mean they know it's on I-70 west of Denver on the way to Utah.  They just know it's in the Colorado Rockies somewhere.

What about Wisconsin Dells, which is used? (I would rather have neither than both.)

Frankly, I think Wis Dells is a bad control city.

I spent my young childhood (through age eight) in the Chicago area, and then I lived there for seven years after college as well.  The first time I drove up to Minnesota (probably 2003 or so), I thought, Huh, so apparently the Wisconsin Dells are around here somewhere.

It should be Tomah northbound, possibly doubled with Eau Claire, and just Madison southbound.

Wisconsin Dells is far more well known than Tomah by Wisconsinites, Midwesterners, and national travelers alike. I honestly haven't met a single person from Madison who knows where Tomah is, beyond "it's far, isn't it?"

I'd rather use Minneapolis than Tomah.

[kphoger]

It makes very good sense as a control city for westbound traffic.

However, I'm far less sold on Limon's utility as a control city for eastbound traffic.

I've always said that Limon is alright eastbound due to the lack of good options. It's westbound where I have a big problem, with Denver 90 miles up the road.

I think we may have reached an impasse...

[Roadgeekteen]

It makes very good sense as a control city for westbound traffic.

However, I'm far less sold on Limon's utility as a control city for eastbound traffic.

I've always said that Limon is alright eastbound due to the lack of good options. It's westbound where I have a big problem, with Denver 90 miles up the road.

I think we may have reached an impasse...

If Colorado Springs is such an important turn off, sign Denver/Colorado Springs instead of Limon.

[kphoger]

At first glance, I'd prefer Eau Claire or even Saint Paul.  However, traffic following I-90 west from Chicago isn't going to either of those cities.  They're only useful for I-94 traffic.

[Roadgeekteen]

At first glance, I'd prefer Eau Claire or even Saint Paul.  However, traffic following I-90 west from Chicago isn't going to either of those cities.  They're only useful for I-94 traffic.

Control City Freak suggested using "Minnesota" because both I-90 and I-94 go there, but some of the forum would freak out if they heard that.