New Jersey Turnpike

[Dough4872]

https://goo.gl/maps/MyWmGyrU5kPhrWTb8
No control city for the NB ramp, but Trenton for the SB ramp.

You would think they would use New York City here.

[ran4sh]

Maybe Manhattan specifically. But technically from that point you can reach parts of NYC by going south. New Haven might be a better control city for northbound because at this point the road is already within the NYC urbanized area.

[chrisg69911]

Maybe Manhattan specifically. But technically from that point you can reach parts of NYC by going south. New Haven might be a better control city for northbound because at this point the road is already within the NYC urbanized area.

To me that would seem like 95 would bypass NYC. NJTA uses Geo Washington Bridge typically, I think that or The Bronx, would be a good choice.

[jeffandnicole]

Maybe Manhattan specifically. But technically from that point you can reach parts of NYC by going south. New Haven might be a better control city for northbound because at this point the road is already within the NYC urbanized area.

Yeah, that wouldn't be controversial, especially in this group, skipping over the largest city in America to a destination 2 states away.

[Dough4872]

I think when New York City is being used as a control city is is assumed to be referring to Manhattan. Outlying boroughs would use the borough name such as Staten Island. So I see no harm in New York City being used as the control city here.

[Ted$8roadFan]

Wouldn't "New York"  by itself work?

[Dough4872]

Wouldn't "New York"  by itself work?

True, can't go wrong with that control city, since the driver can think of it leading to the city or the state.

[ran4sh]

Maybe Manhattan specifically. But technically from that point you can reach parts of NYC by going south. New Haven might be a better control city for northbound because at this point the road is already within the NYC urbanized area.

To me that would seem like 95 would bypass NYC. NJTA uses Geo Washington Bridge typically, I think that or The Bronx, would be a good choice.

95 does bypass the main part of NYC. If control cities refer to points, most people are looking for Midtown or Downtown Manhattan, which are accessed from the Turnpike by exiting (exit 16E) rather than continuing all the way to the George Washington Bridge. Just because it passes through city limits, doesn't make NYC a good control city for the part going toward the GWB.

[storm2k]

Maybe Manhattan specifically. But technically from that point you can reach parts of NYC by going south. New Haven might be a better control city for northbound because at this point the road is already within the NYC urbanized area.

To me that would seem like 95 would bypass NYC. NJTA uses Geo Washington Bridge typically, I think that or The Bronx, would be a good choice.

The Trans-Manhattan Expressway gives away which boro it goes through first, plus it has exits to both the Henry Hudson and Harlem River Drives so New York City is still fine. I think the Turnpike prefers the crossing names since it does provide relatively direct access to all three of the PA crossings to Manhattan.

[bluecountry]

So what is going on now with all the work around mile 84 NB or somewhere in the mid 80s?

[bluecountry]

I always thought the NBJTP/GSP interchange should have for GSP North 'Paterson' then after Paterson, Mahway.
SB, it should list Shore Points.

As for the NJTP, SB after Newark ALL signs need to say Philadelphia.  The Trenton sign always has bothered me since it is so small and not even off the TP.

You know Trenton is the state capital, right? Kind of important. And Philadelphia is farther off the Turnpike than Trenton.

Yeah, but a lot of people heading for Trenton are likely to hop on US,1 at Exit 9... that's unlikely if you are heading for Philly metro. And let's face it, the primary use of the turnpike between the two cities is connecting those two cities. Trenton should be as much as an afterthought as Newark.

AGREED!
Trenton is irrelevant especially compared to, oh the 6th biggest metro area in the country.

Trenton is one that is close enough to be warranted , as well as Wilmington, DE. Though the latter many whine on here about and arguing that Baltimore should be instead, it's also connected by another freeway just as Trenton is.

At one time I-195 wasn't there and there were no freeways from the Turnpike to the State Capital. Previously Exit 8 was signed for Trenton SB and signs from North Jersey downward reflected it then also. And NJ 33 west from Exit 8 wasn't ( and still isn't) a freeway, which was the route into Trenton from that exchange when signed as NJ 33 Hightstown Trenton back then.

I disagree about Wilmington, it is large enough (70K), directly on the route, and it serves as a major junction with 95.
It definitely should be the SB control, unless you want it to be the DEMB which I am also fine with; remember Wilmington serves as a major transition point from the NJTP/295, 95 from Philly, to BAL/WAS OR down RT 1 to the beach and Norfolk.

[bluecountry]

Alright, one final swing at this and then I'm done for the moment...

Pretend states don't exist. Pretend highways were signed from scratch today. Would anyone seriously sign Trenton as the southbound control on 95?  Of course not. They'd sign Philly. Wilmington would disappear too. The I-95 controls would be DC, Baltimore, Philly and NYC in this stretch, since they are by far the most important locations. All others are insignificant by comparison, and not worthy of being signed. If this whole area was, say, within the state of Texas, this is how it would be.

Signing only NYC in one direction, and then much smaller and more insignificant locations in the other direction WHEN THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT PLACES, is purely indicative of a NYC-centric mindset, which I suppose isn't surprising in NJ (which is NYC-centric on average), but still ridic in the grand scheme.

OK, I'll shut for the time being on this...

-signed, someone who grew up in Ewing and resides there once again, but realizes this area isn't really important

AGREED!

I always thought the NBJTP/GSP interchange should have for GSP North 'Paterson' then after Paterson, Mahway.
SB, it should list Shore Points.

As for the NJTP, SB after Newark ALL signs need to say Philadelphia.  The Trenton sign always has bothered me since it is so small and not even off the TP.

You know Trenton is the state capital, right? Kind of important. And Philadelphia is farther off the Turnpike than Trenton.

Southbound on the Turnpike from Newark, both Trenton and Philadelphia are valid control cities. Trenton is valid for the Turnpike (because it's the state capital and not far off the Turnpike) and Phila. is valid for I-95.

So here's a novel idea: Why not post both cities on the southbound entrance and pull-thru signs? I believe the MUTCD does not prohibit that and it would make a lot of sense for both routes running concurrent.

That only makes sense if you co-sign the NB NJTP with Newark/NY City; if the puny state capital not on the NJTP is getting signed, then so should the largest city in the state which is off 95.

Wouldn't "New York"  by itself work?

No, in fact I hate it when New York is used, it should be NY City, New York could refer to upstate/Albany.  You need to specify.

[jeffandnicole]

I always thought the NBJTP/GSP interchange should have for GSP North 'Paterson' then after Paterson, Mahway.
SB, it should list Shore Points.

As for the NJTP, SB after Newark ALL signs need to say Philadelphia.  The Trenton sign always has bothered me since it is so small and not even off the TP.

You know Trenton is the state capital, right? Kind of important. And Philadelphia is farther off the Turnpike than Trenton.

Yeah, but a lot of people heading for Trenton are likely to hop on US,1 at Exit 9... that's unlikely if you are heading for Philly metro. And let's face it, the primary use of the turnpike between the two cities is connecting those two cities. Trenton should be as much as an afterthought as Newark.

AGREED!
Trenton is irrelevant especially compared to, oh the 6th biggest metro area in the country.

Trenton is one that is close enough to be warranted , as well as Wilmington, DE. Though the latter many whine on here about and arguing that Baltimore should be instead, it's also connected by another freeway just as Trenton is.

At one time I-195 wasn't there and there were no freeways from the Turnpike to the State Capital. Previously Exit 8 was signed for Trenton SB and signs from North Jersey downward reflected it then also. And NJ 33 west from Exit 8 wasn't ( and still isn't) a freeway, which was the route into Trenton from that exchange when signed as NJ 33 Hightstown Trenton back then.

I disagree about Wilmington, it is large enough (70K), directly on the route, and it serves as a major junction with 95.
It definitely should be the SB control, unless you want it to be the DEMB which I am also fine with; remember Wilmington serves as a major transition point from the NJTP/295, 95 from Philly, to BAL/WAS OR down RT 1 to the beach and Norfolk.

Trenton is larger than Wilmington.  Trenton has about 90,000 residents.  Wilmington has about 70,000 residents.

Wilmington is also not directly on the route.  The closest one gets to Wilmington is actually on the NJ border of the river, since the river is fully within Delaware at this location.  The border of Wilmington is only a few hundred feet north of the location where the New Jersey/Delaware border line is painted on the bridge deck: https://goo.gl/maps/UhBwTimu9h44AnW66 . And since the vast majority of traffic isn't turning north towards Wilmington, it's relevance to most traffic on the Turnpike is minimal.

[roadman65]

Wilmington is like Benson in NC or Lake City in FL. They're both cities near crossroads and so is Delaware's largest city.

[ran4sh]

Wilmington is like Benson in NC or Lake City in FL.

Yeah, they're bad choices for control city.

[Dough4872]

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8eY2afK/ Interesting, I never knew the New Jersey Turnpike used longer lines than other roads.

[jeffandnicole]

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8eY2afK/ Interesting, I never knew the New Jersey Turnpike used longer lines than other roads.

I'm surprised you never noticed that!

I don't know if I agree with his assertion that the line length causes motorists to drive faster. Speeds on the Turnpike are fast due to it being straight, clear sightlines and a fairly boring drive. When traffic is light, speeds pick up also. And the Turnpike has a reputation from those that travel it often as a road with a very high tolerance: At least 80; maybe 85. Many troopers aren't even interested in speed; they're looking for other things, responding to issues, or just going from Point A to Point B.

Other highways, such as the Parkway, I-80 & I-295, have very fast speeds with 85th percentile speeds over 80 mph, yet those lines used are the standard 10' length.

[wanderer2575]

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8eY2afK/ Interesting, I never knew the New Jersey Turnpike used longer lines than other roads.

I'm surprised you never noticed that!

I don't know if I agree with his assertion that the line length causes motorists to drive faster. Speeds on the Turnpike are fast due to it being straight, clear sightlines and a fairly boring drive. When traffic is light, speeds pick up also. And the Turnpike has a reputation from those that travel it often as a road with a very high tolerance: At least 80; maybe 85. Many troopers aren't even interested in speed; they're looking for other things, responding to issues, or just going from Point A to Point B.

Other highways, such as the Parkway, I-80 & I-295, have very fast speeds with 85th percentile speeds over 80 mph, yet those lines used are the standard 10' length.

I'm inclined to think the longer lines would somehow have a calming effect and therefore, if anything, cause motorists to drive slower.  But I've yet to drive the Turnpike so I haven't tested that.

[roadman65]

Growing up in NJ I never had a problem with those lines like I never had issues with full serve gas like people are having in another state that disallows self serve in another recent thread.

It may seem like your driving slow, but that's the way it is if you drive the Jersey Turnpike.

[plain]

Damn near everyone in NJ drives fast.

[roadman65]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403192636576400/permalink/3647122858850022/

Here is an interesting HoJo pennant with the NJ Turnpike on it.

[ixnay]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403192636576400/permalink/3647122858850022/

Here is an interesting HoJo pennant with the NJ Turnpike on it.

I just clicked on the link and got

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[Italicization is ixnay's]

[bluecountry]

Wilmington is like Benson in NC or Lake City in FL.

Yeah, they're bad choices for control city.

I don't think Wilmington is bad; Trenton is.
Wilmington is directly adjacent to 95, and moreover, it is a major crossroads merging with 95 and as well beach traffic down to Norfolk.

[bluecountry]

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8eY2afK/ Interesting, I never knew the New Jersey Turnpike used longer lines than other roads.

I'm surprised you never noticed that!

I don't know if I agree with his assertion that the line length causes motorists to drive faster. Speeds on the Turnpike are fast due to it being straight, clear sightlines and a fairly boring drive. When traffic is light, speeds pick up also. And the Turnpike has a reputation from those that travel it often as a road with a very high tolerance: At least 80; maybe 85. Many troopers aren't even interested in speed; they're looking for other things, responding to issues, or just going from Point A to Point B.

Other highways, such as the Parkway, I-80 & I-295, have very fast speeds with 85th percentile speeds over 80 mph, yet those lines used are the standard 10' length.

You forgot to mention VERY few exits or a lot of distance.

What is this about troopers having a high tolerance?  I always thought it was due to the road being tolled; they already got their money in contrast to VA where it is untolled and troopers are everywhere.

[ran4sh]

Wilmington is like Benson in NC or Lake City in FL.

Yeah, they're bad choices for control city.

I don't think Wilmington is bad; Trenton is.
Wilmington is directly adjacent to 95, and moreover, it is a major crossroads merging with 95 and as well beach traffic down to Norfolk.

I don't think of the 295-95 junction as being in Wilmington though (even if it technically may be)... when I think of reaching Wilmington from the southbound Turnpike it involves going north on I-95 or I-495, when most traffic from southbound Turnpike probably goes to southbound I-95.