Target no longer accepting checks as of July 15th, 2024

[mgk920]

For what it's worth, I've read Canadians saying that they end up without a lot of change in their pocket at all, because once you're pulling out your coins to find the $1 and $2 coins, you might as well pay exact change since you've got your quarters, dimes, and in nickels in hand too. So they end up spending more of it than Americans do.

I have never used any currency but USD so I have no idea how true this is or not.

it is true, demand on the Royal Canadian Mint for new quarters dropped to zero for a few years after they released their C$2 coins due to this 'recirculation' effect.

Mike

[hotdogPi]

I'm also 'on the fence' regarding $10.

I don't think non-precious metal $10 equivalents have ever existed in any country. The two current $5 equivalents, 5 Swiss francs and 500 yen, are both from countries that have very low inflation and have appreciated relative to the dollar within the last 50 years, so they have essentially always been a $5 coin. There are others that were worth $5 when introduced (e.g. 1983 £1), but not 10 as far as I know.

EDIT: 5 DM (1975) and 20 francs (1992) might have been $10 coins.

[JayhawkCO]

For what it's worth, I've read Canadians saying that they end up without a lot of change in their pocket at all, because once you're pulling out your coins to find the $1 and $2 coins, you might as well pay exact change since you've got your quarters, dimes, and in nickels in hand too. So they end up spending more of it than Americans do.

I have never used any currency but USD so I have no idea how true this is or not.

Having used a lot of different currencies in my life, the only way that I didn't end up with a lot of coins leftover after leaving a country was to add up everything I had left and buy something with it at the airport. I'm not sure if that's just a cultural thing since I don't use coins to pay for ANYTHING here and so never take the time to use the coins when paying for things during my trip.

There are also countries I've visited where I never received/paid with any coins at all. When I visited Myanmar, everything was bills.

[1995hoo]

.... I'm not sure if that's just a cultural thing since I don't use coins to pay for ANYTHING here and so never take the time to use the coins when paying for things during my trip.

....

This is part of what I was getting at in reply #90 from 8:33 this morning. I think people who live in countries that have eliminated the small-denomination bills make the mental adjustment to viewing the coins as more than mere "pocket change" in the sense of them being trivial amounts, whereas from an American standpoint we're used to coins not being worth more than 25¢ (given the rarity of the half-dollar—although I have to admit I've never seen a Canadian half-dollar).

[JayhawkCO]

.... I'm not sure if that's just a cultural thing since I don't use coins to pay for ANYTHING here and so never take the time to use the coins when paying for things during my trip.

....

This is part of what I was getting at in reply #90 from 8:33 this morning. I think people who live in countries that have eliminated the small-denomination bills make the mental adjustment to viewing the coins as more than mere "pocket change" in the sense of them being trivial amounts, whereas from an American standpoint we're used to coins not being worth more than 25¢ (given the rarity of the half-dollar—although I have to admit I've never seen a Canadian half-dollar).

Yeah. If in Europe, I might empty my pockets at the end of the night and see I have five 2-Euro coins and then remember to pay for something with them the next day. But in the middle of the day, it's just random jingle in my pocket are far as I'm concerned.

[kkt]

Paying by cash takes longer than tap and leaves you with coins to carry around.

When I was a cashier I could dispense change faster than the tap machine could process a credit card. So it is possible, though I acknowledge most cashiers weren't as fast as me.

Complaining about carrying around coins is a first-world problem. If you end up with more than a few ounces worth of coins in your pocket you're doing something terribly wrong.

Tap is overrated.  90% of the time it takes at least two taps.  Usually I try once and when it doesn't work just insert the card in the slot.

Back in the days of checks, most people had the check made out except for the amount by the time they reached the checkout stand.  It took about the same amount of time as fighting with the card reader machine.

[jeffandnicole]

The other thing that seems odd is how many younger people will pay for little things, such as a snack, soft drink or one beer using a debit/credit card. My civic club ran the beer and soft drink tents at a recent "Freedom Fest" event. To keep things simple and to avoid Internet bandwidth fiascos we experienced in previous years our booths only accepted cash. There was an ATM nearby. It was amazing how many people had to use the ATM because they didn't have any cash at all on them.

We had no choice but to go cash-only at our beer and soft drink booths at this event. In the past, the Internet pipe our point-of-sale system relied on at Elmer Thomas Park got overwhelmed, especially when the fireworks display got started. Every other asshole with a phone felt the need to live-stream the event -as if anyone else is going to give that much of a damn to watch that video online live or later. I don't know why so much of the mobile phone activity was going onto the Internet pipe rather than staying in the cellular networks. Whatever it was caused a lot of malfunctions in processing card payments. It got worse and worse later into the evening and not working at all once the fireworks show got started. We were NOT going through that crap again.

Some customers were annoyed at us not taking their cards. Their inconvenience is nothing compared to the stress we had to put up with the last time around just to take card payments.

This screams of "Back in my day we had to walk 10 miles to school uphill both ways in the snow and we liked it".

(And note, when I say 'you' below, I don't mean you personally.  I mean the group you're with)

Businesses need to evolve with the times.  It doesn't matter what you think - your organization needs to evolve also.  And to make it worse, instead of evolving, your organization doubled down on their beliefs.  It doesn't matter that you think people shouldn't be broadcasting video of fireworks. That's what they're going to do, and no matter what you think, they're not going to stop doing it. 

I mention your organization, which means I've thinking you're part of a non-profit.  Many of them tend to have one person, or a group-think, that doesn't match with current standards.  You're surprised many people had to go to an ATM.  Yep, people using cash is way down.  Credit Card usage is way up.  Any business could tell you that.

When you said you had no choice - you did have a choice. You just chose poorly.  The Square app (among others) allows purchases to be made offline (when set up properly), and downloaded when you're back online. There's a fee for the swipe ($10) or chip ($49), but it allows people to take credit cards in any environment, as long as they download the app to their phone.  Sure, there's a small chance a purchase will be declined after the fact due to being offline, but we're not talking hundreds of dollars here. Also, another important item - test things out prior to the event.  This also means members need to download the app to their phone; many of which will complain about it.

Again, I'm thinking you're part of a non-profit. These events are supposed to offer the opportunity to promote the non-profit. Instead, your group pissed of a lot of people making them go to an ATM, which in itself carries a fee for most users.  And worse, you cost yourself sales because people didn't have their ATM card on them. When membership dwindles and the group sits around wondering why, instead of blaming themselves for doing things wrong, they'll blame the general population for doing things wrong.  You said you wanted to keep things simple; instead you made things more complicated.

I'll also present a counterpoint to your argument that people don't carry cash.  People also don't need to buy a beer or soda to watch fireworks.  They do because it's available.  But if the option isn't there, they'll be fine.  Your group on the other hand will be out the money that could've been made. 

If your group was 'stressed' trying to take credit card payments, maybe it's time to pass the food/drink stand to another group that can handle modern day payments.


I'll point out 2 issues I've had with my own non-profit when I was a member.

Going back 15 years, they ran a stand at a community day event.  The person running the money came prepared with a bank to make change with...of $20.  The very first person came up with a $20 for a $2 purchase, consuming their entire bank.  The person in charge of money was pissed.  But it was their own fault.  They didn't think how people got money - they would go to an ATM, which spits out...$20 bills. So in the morning when people are first arriving, they mostly had $20s on them.  The following year when I was in charge of money, I had a bank available of $250, all 1s and 5s.  Sure we got $20s at first, but as the day wore on when people had used $20s and received change, they now had smaller bills to use.  Never once did we come close to running out of available change.

Another issue, more road-related, was when we were in charge of parking cars on a large grassy field for a circus.  At one point, a line of cars started going the wrong way. Many of the volunteers were running all over the place chasing these cars down, wondering why they're all idiots. I, on the other hand, went to the area where they started going the wrong direction.  The problem wasn't them - it was us.  A sign had blown over.  These people would've been chasing cars for the next hour if they didn't go to the root of the problem.


So the point is, someone needs to comprehend the problems that could occur, and be better prepared the next year.  If the problem is everyone wants to use credit cards, and the solution is to eliminate the option to using credit cards, that decision was bone-headed at best.

[JayhawkCO]

Paying by cash takes longer than tap and leaves you with coins to carry around.

When I was a cashier I could dispense change faster than the tap machine could process a credit card. So it is possible, though I acknowledge most cashiers weren't as fast as me.

Complaining about carrying around coins is a first-world problem. If you end up with more than a few ounces worth of coins in your pocket you're doing something terribly wrong.

Tap is overrated.  90% of the time it takes at least two taps.  Usually I try once and when it doesn't work just insert the card in the slot.

Back in the days of checks, most people had the check made out except for the amount by the time they reached the checkout stand.  It took about the same amount of time as fighting with the card reader machine.

Two taps still takes probably 20% of the time of inserting the chip.

[Bobby5280]

When you said you had no choice - you did have a choice. You just choose poorly.

You weren't there. You didn't live through it. If you had your butt in the chair trying to ring up electronic purchases with a failing Internet connection and a long line of people glaring angrily at you then your tune might be different. Some of those angry customers weren't 100% sober either.

We didn't build the fucking Internet infrastructure running through there. We didn't install the mobile phone towers or any of the other shit that a POS system might use. We had ZERO CONTROL over that. But you're popping off insulting comments as if we did.

We went cash-only on our beer and soft drink booths to save the sanity of volunteers and avoid conflicts. Customers get a little irritated by a cash only booth. They get far more pissed off and antagonist toward our volunteers when they're stuck waiting in line too long. Any volunteer is going to put up with only so much stress. You might not give a damn about that. But it doesn't matter. You're not in charge of our project.

[JayhawkCO]

When you said you had no choice - you did have a choice. You just choose poorly.

You weren't there. You didn't live through it. If you had your butt in the chair trying to ring up electronic purchases with a failing Internet connection and a long line of people glaring angrily at you then your tune might be different. Some of those angry customers weren't 100% sober either.

We didn't build the fucking Internet infrastructure running through there. We didn't install the mobile phone towers or any of the other shit that a POS system might use. We had ZERO CONTROL over that. But you're popping off insulting comments as if we did.

We went cash-only on our beer and soft drink booths to save the sanity of volunteers and avoid conflicts. Customers get a little irritated by a cash only booth. They get far more pissed off and antagonist toward our volunteers when they're stuck waiting in line too long. Any volunteer is going to put up with only so much stress. You might not give a damn about that. But it doesn't matter. You're not in charge of our project.

If you used Square (and I'm sure other systems too), there is offline processing so it'll store the CC info on your device and then process it when you have signal again. You can also run Aloha or other systems in offline mode as well, so the POS didn't need anything other than power.

I did this when I ran a food/drink booth at the Plaza Art Fair in Kansas City for the restaurant that I was the GM of at the time. We would do $50k in revenue from Friday at 5:00 to Sunday at 3:00, so I'd like to think I've been in a similar situation to you, but likely at a larger scale. Planning ahead knowing about electronic limitations saves a lot of the stress that you're talking about.

[jeffandnicole]

When you said you had no choice - you did have a choice. You just choose poorly.

You weren't there. You didn't live through it. If you had your butt in the chair trying to ring up electronic purchases with a failing Internet connection and a long line of people glaring angrily at you then your tune might be different. Some of those angry customers weren't 100% sober either.

We didn't build the fucking Internet infrastructure running through there. We didn't install the mobile phone towers or any of the other shit that a POS system might use. We had ZERO CONTROL over that. But you're popping off insulting comments as if we did.

We went cash-only on our beer and soft drink booths to save the sanity of volunteers and avoid conflicts. Customers get a little irritated by a cash only booth. They get far more pissed off and antagonist toward our volunteers when they're stuck waiting in line too long. Any volunteer is going to put up with only so much stress. You might not give a damn about that. But it doesn't matter. You're not in charge of our project.

You do understand I've been in charge of projects, right? I tried giving you hints and pointers. Your group needs to speak up about the problems incurred. You're blaming everyone else. People using their phones. People installing the towers. People building the infrastructure. Have you or your group talked to the organizers? If everyone can use their phones during the event, yet you can't use your machines, that seems like a localized problem.

The other question I would have is, are other vendors taking cards? Are they having issues? If yes, then there's a larger issue. If no, then again it's a localized issue.

Clearly I've been in your shoes - I gave examples. But I also seeked out ways to improve, based on what people wanted. Your group is going the opposite way. You're right - I'm not in charge of your project. If it was, I'd already be talking to organizers and reviewing ways to improve the situation, not taking steps backwards to eliminate modern means of payment.

As was mentioned, look into the Square.

[jeffandnicole]

Oh, I recall a very relevant example now.  An organization ran a charity high school all-star football game, and my organization (the Jaycees, members were 18-40 years old) was in charge of the concession stands.  They started using an ATM for people without cash.  I finally convinced them to use credit card readers. The first year, there were issues with the machines we have, similar to yours (and this was 10 - 12 years ago). The second year, they got better machines with better internet access.  It still wasn't smooth sailing - we had 3 stands; 2 run by current members of the organization, and a 3rd run by the 'senators'; Jaycees members that had aged out.  The Senators tried using the credit card machines but gave up, because it was technology that was confounding them.  That stand directed people over to the two stands that did take credit cards.

What also helped - I was on the main organization's committee.  Again, older people.  People that didn't understand that credit cards were becoming the way to pay.  I had to fight to encourage them to use the credit card terminals.  They couldn't understand why they should give up fees for card sales.  After that 2nd year, it became clear why it worked - people were buying more food and drink because they weren't limited to cash on hand. 

So it took a while, but I got them to embrace the technology. And they made sure the stadium had the capability to handle the machines.

[Rothman]

Paying by cash takes longer than tap and leaves you with coins to carry around.

When I was a cashier I could dispense change faster than the tap machine could process a credit card. So it is possible, though I acknowledge most cashiers weren't as fast as me.

Complaining about carrying around coins is a first-world problem. If you end up with more than a few ounces worth of coins in your pocket you're doing something terribly wrong.

Pfft.  I live in a first world country, so yes, it is a problem.

Cash is for luddites.

[seicer]

From a compliance, legal, and ease-of-use standpoint, I can attest that transitioning to card-only transactions at my employer has been beneficial. Before migrating our web form systems to a new system with Stripe integration, departments operated independently. Most accepted cash, some stored card numbers in plain text files, and others used outdated or unvetted systems. This lack of standardization led to several issues:

• Incompatibility between systems, delaying device renewals
• Inconsistent or non-existent reporting
• Non-compliance in cash handling
• Increased potential for theft due to inconsistent money handling

Since adopting the new web form system with Stripe, we have consolidated all payment systems into a unified interface. This change has expedited development work, increased revenue by 350% in two years, provided comprehensive revenue reporting for auditors, and ensured full financial compliance. Our error rate has dropped from approximately 10% to less than 1%.

We are now moving toward eliminating cash from in-person events by using hand-held terminal readers integrated with Stripe.

--

From a personal perspective, I use cards because they simplify my taxes. Recording transactions in Intuit QuickBooks automatically, attaching receipts, and categorizing expenses is much easier. At tax time, I can export all transactions into another application, completing my taxes in hours instead of days. This eliminates the need to scan checks, review ledgers, or engage in other time-consuming and potentially audit-triggering tasks.

During events, we previously offered both cash and card transactions. At our last event, 95% of transactions were made with cards. For our next event, we will not offer a cash option. Removing the cash box will enhance security and simplify our reporting.

[Bobby5280]

You do understand I've been in charge of projects, right? I tried giving you hints and pointers. Your group needs to speak up about the problems incurred. You're blaming everyone else.

Wrong. YOU are blaming us for the fucking Internet connection going down and our POS system not working. I'm not having any of that. I don't care if you were in charge of other fund-raising projects. You were not at this one when the damned Internet service in the area got overwhelmed. You have no idea how stressed and infuriated we were in that situation. Semi-drunk customers were itching to pick fights with us. And I was ready to knock out some of their teeth if they wanted to take it there.

As was mentioned, look into the Square.

Uh, we were using Square for our POS setup. It doesn't matter what ever the hell POS setup you're using. If your data connection goes to shit you are dead in the water. We are not going through that again. To answer your question about other vendors, yeah their systems got hosed too.

Putting up with people who get a little butt hurt over having to use cash at a drink tent isn't as bad as a line backing way the hell up because the card transactions aren't going through.

[JayhawkCO]

As was mentioned, look into the Square.

Uh, we were using Square for our POS setup. It doesn't matter what ever the hell POS setup you're using. If your data connection goes to shit you are dead in the water. We are not going through that again. To answer your question about other vendors, yeah their systems got hosed too.

Putting up with people who get a little butt hurt over having to use cash at a drink tent isn't as bad as a line backing way the hell up because the card transactions aren't going through.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Square works just fine offline. It doesn't seem like you set it up correctly.

It seems like you purposefully ignored my post, and as the member of this forum likely with the most restaurant experience given that I was in the industry from server to F&B Director over the course of 20+ years, it seems like you don't want to hear another opinion to counter any beliefs that you're already holding onto.

To repeat, you need no data connection to use Square nor a traditional POS system like Aloha, Micros, Toast, etc. I've used a POS system and Square both in tandem for off-site events with no issues other than occasionally having a card that would have been declined had I had online authorizations. Missing out on $50 in revenue always seemed a small price to pay for having the ability to take cards and increase my revenue by several hundred percent, especially when "competing" with other vendors who were cash only.

[jeffandnicole]

You do understand I've been in charge of projects, right? I tried giving you hints and pointers. Your group needs to speak up about the problems incurred. You're blaming everyone else.

Wrong. YOU are blaming us for the fucking Internet connection going down and our POS system not working. I'm not having any of that. I don't care if you were in charge of other fund-raising projects. You were not at this one when the damned Internet service in the area got overwhelmed. You have no idea how stressed and infuriated we were in that situation. Semi-drunk customers were itching to pick fights with us. And I was ready to knock out some of their teeth if they wanted to take it there.

As was mentioned, look into the Square.

Uh, we were using Square for our POS setup. It doesn't matter what ever the hell POS setup you're using. If your data connection goes to shit you are dead in the water. We are not going through that again. To answer your question about other vendors, yeah their systems got hosed too.

Putting up with people who get a little butt hurt over having to use cash at a drink tent isn't as bad as a line backing way the hell up because the card transactions aren't going through.

With the attitude and misquotes, I can kinda see how something that should be easily solvable isn't. 

[webny99]

I think it's important to distinguish that the issues being solvable doesn't necessarily mean solvable right then and there. In the heat of the moment, I am certainly not going to criticize the decision to stop accepting cards if there were major connection issues. Customers should understand that sometimes, systems go down. I've had it happen to myself on more than one occasion. But since accepting credit cards provides you an advantage, then it's to your benefit to research and work out those issues to ensure you can accept cards for the next event. Even if it's not strictly the problem of the people/organization running the stand (which it isn't), once things calm down whoever is in charge should take the initiative to make the third parties aware of the issues and solicit their help. If that's not happening or didn't happen, deciding in advance to just not accept credit cards because of connection issues is a poor excuse.

[seicer]

Blaming the technology when someone doesn't understand something is a classic deflection tactic. Most point-of-sale systems can operate in an offline mode; Square and Toast, two of the most popular vendors, have such capabilities.

[hotdogPi]

I play at a Magic: the Gathering store. One time when the power was out, the rules were cash purchases only. This particular store was low-volume enough that "write down the 16 digits, manually process when the power comes back on" would have been an option, but he didn't. This obviously wouldn't work manually for a high-volume location like Bobby5280 described, but I'm wondering if this is the underlying mechanism for Square and Toast where any offline purchase has the card number and amount of money kept track of in a database and then processed immediately when back online.

[kalvado]

Blaming the technology when someone doesn't understand something is a classic deflection tactic. Most point-of-sale systems can operate in an offline mode; Square and Toast, two of the most popular vendors, have such capabilities.

At the very least, forced offline situation has to be anticipated, and proper arrangements made beforehand. Hindsight is always great... 
Not to mention POS vendor also not being top notch by opting for a lower QoS tier of cell connection.

[seicer]

I play at a Magic: the Gathering store. One time when the power was out, the rules were cash purchases only. This particular store was low-volume enough that "write down the 16 digits, manually process when the power comes back on" would have been an option, but he didn't. This obviously wouldn't work manually for a high-volume location like Bobby5280 described, but I'm wondering if this is the underlying mechanism for Square and Toast where any offline purchase has the card number and amount of money kept track of in a database and then processed immediately when back online.

Writing card numbers down on a notecard is never an option. That is the worst possible thing you can do with someone's financial information. It also puts the business against PCI regulations.

[JayhawkCO]

I play at a Magic: the Gathering store. One time when the power was out, the rules were cash purchases only. This particular store was low-volume enough that "write down the 16 digits, manually process when the power comes back on" would have been an option, but he didn't. This obviously wouldn't work manually for a high-volume location like Bobby5280 described, but I'm wondering if this is the underlying mechanism for Square and Toast where any offline purchase has the card number and amount of money kept track of in a database and then processed immediately when back online.

Writing card numbers down on a notecard is never an option. That is the worst possible thing you can do with someone's financial information. It also puts the business against PCI regulations.

Every restaurant I've ever worked in had a crash kit - which was a list of all menu items with their post-tax prices and then the old 80's style "knuckle-busters" so we could make carbon imprints of credit cards. Obviously there are a lot of cards now without raised numbering, making it somewhat moot, but we could still write down the total with the credit card number, expiration, etc., and have the guest sign the copy. Then when the POS system went back online, we could manually enter the payment info.

Also, writing down the info isn't inherently against PCI compliance. If the information is stored and disposed of properly, you're likely not doing anything wrong.

[jeffandnicole]

I started wondering...how long was this line at the ATM if everyone supposedly had internet issues and were sending everyone to a nearby ATM.

I think it's important to distinguish that the issues being solvable doesn't necessarily mean solvable right then and there. In the heat of the moment, I am certainly not going to criticize the decision to stop accepting cards if there were major connection issues. Customers should understand that sometimes, systems go down.

In this case, it appeared they kept pushing thru trying to accept cards when they were having major issues, instead of just saying "sorry, we can only take cash at this time".  My 'solvable' references clearly were intended for the following year, referencing talking with organizers, getting other equipment, etc.

Blaming the technology when someone doesn't understand something is a classic deflection tactic. Most point-of-sale systems can operate in an offline mode; Square and Toast, two of the most popular vendors, have such capabilities.

My wife's business uses Square.  On the rare occasion the internet is out, or the rarer occasion when the power is out, the charge is processed on her end like nothing happened.  When the internet is up, it goes thru.  Square is very popular with vendors at craft fairs and such where online capabilities may be limited.

I play at a Magic: the Gathering store. One time when the power was out, the rules were cash purchases only. This particular store was low-volume enough that "write down the 16 digits, manually process when the power comes back on" would have been an option, but he didn't. This obviously wouldn't work manually for a high-volume location like Bobby5280 described, but I'm wondering if this is the underlying mechanism for Square and Toast where any offline purchase has the card number and amount of money kept track of in a database and then processed immediately when back online.

Writing card numbers down on a notecard is never an option. That is the worst possible thing you can do with someone's financial information. It also puts the business against PCI regulations.

Correct. It's a hidden database where I don't believe we can view the full account info.

Although, rolling this back to checks - it is odd that PCI regs don't allow credit card info to be written down, yet if the business receives a check, they have access to all the banking info for the customer, including account number.

[1995hoo]

....

Although, rolling this back to checks - it is odd that PCI regs don't allow credit card info to be written down, yet if the business receives a check, they have access to all the banking info for the customer, including account number.

Heh. Don't forget how once upon a time if you wrote a check, the merchant asked for a driver's license and a "major credit card" and usually wrote your credit card number on the check. That was banned by the early 1990s.