Indiana Notes

[Rothman]

US 30 gets more truck traffic than I-69 between Indy and Evansville will ever see. Evansville is served by two interstate routes now, and Fort Wayne is served by only one. US 30 is the only major roadway that radiates from the Chicago metro area that is not a freeway or tollway. Fort Wayne always gets the crumbs, even though it is centrally located between Indy, Chicago, Columbus, and Detroit. You can drive between Owensboro and Bowling Green on an interstate, but not Fort Wayne to Chicago, LOL.

FT Wayne is not a major city, its metro population isn't even half a million people, so it isn't surprising they don't get a lot of attention. I-80/90 isn't too far away so any truck traffic wanting to get to FT Wayne would use that instead of US 30.

I disagree that it isn't a major city, but the lack of a direct interstate connection to Chicago really isn't that surprising.  The fact that IN prioritized I-69 to Evansville rather than some fluffy idea about connecting the larger Fort Wayne to Chicago speaks volumes.

Well, I think one driving force on going to Evansville with I-69 was the fact that Bloomington had a major university with no interstate connection prior to I-69. All the other major universities in Indiana outside of Indy (Notre Dame, Purdue and Ball State) at least had an interstate nearby. Come to think of it, there are very few major universities in the country that don't have an interstate serving the city. Washington St, Idaho, Oregon St, Texas A&M, Clemson, Liberty, Virginia Tech and U Conn are the only ones that come to mind.

Depends on what you mean by major.  Cornell is an Ivy League university and doesn't have an Interstate connection.

I don't think university presence has much to do with designation or connection.

[hobsini2]

US 30 gets more truck traffic than I-69 between Indy and Evansville will ever see. Evansville is served by two interstate routes now, and Fort Wayne is served by only one. US 30 is the only major roadway that radiates from the Chicago metro area that is not a freeway or tollway. Fort Wayne always gets the crumbs, even though it is centrally located between Indy, Chicago, Columbus, and Detroit. You can drive between Owensboro and Bowling Green on an interstate, but not Fort Wayne to Chicago, LOL.

FT Wayne is not a major city, its metro population isn't even half a million people, so it isn't surprising they don't get a lot of attention. I-80/90 isn't too far away so any truck traffic wanting to get to FT Wayne would use that instead of US 30.

I disagree that it isn't a major city, but the lack of a direct interstate connection to Chicago really isn't that surprising.  The fact that IN prioritized I-69 to Evansville rather than some fluffy idea about connecting the larger Fort Wayne to Chicago speaks volumes.

Well, I think one driving force on going to Evansville with I-69 was the fact that Bloomington had a major university with no interstate connection prior to I-69. All the other major universities in Indiana outside of Indy (Notre Dame, Purdue and Ball State) at least had an interstate nearby. Come to think of it, there are very few major universities in the country that don't have an interstate serving the city. Washington St, Idaho, Oregon St, Texas A&M, Clemson, Liberty, Virginia Tech and U Conn are the only ones that come to mind.

Depends on what you mean by major.  Cornell is an Ivy League university and doesn't have an Interstate connection.

I don't think university presence has much to do with designation or connection.

I'm thinking more in terms of a large student population. IU has 35k undergrads. Add that to the population of Bloomington (79k) and you are talking about over 100k people not directly served by an interstate prior to I-69. I do think that is a factor.

[NWI_Irish96]

US 30 gets more truck traffic than I-69 between Indy and Evansville will ever see. Evansville is served by two interstate routes now, and Fort Wayne is served by only one. US 30 is the only major roadway that radiates from the Chicago metro area that is not a freeway or tollway. Fort Wayne always gets the crumbs, even though it is centrally located between Indy, Chicago, Columbus, and Detroit. You can drive between Owensboro and Bowling Green on an interstate, but not Fort Wayne to Chicago, LOL.

FT Wayne is not a major city, its metro population isn't even half a million people, so it isn't surprising they don't get a lot of attention. I-80/90 isn't too far away so any truck traffic wanting to get to FT Wayne would use that instead of US 30.

I disagree that it isn't a major city, but the lack of a direct interstate connection to Chicago really isn't that surprising.  The fact that IN prioritized I-69 to Evansville rather than some fluffy idea about connecting the larger Fort Wayne to Chicago speaks volumes.

Well, I think one driving force on going to Evansville with I-69 was the fact that Bloomington had a major university with no interstate connection prior to I-69. All the other major universities in Indiana outside of Indy (Notre Dame, Purdue and Ball State) at least had an interstate nearby. Come to think of it, there are very few major universities in the country that don't have an interstate serving the city. Washington St, Idaho, Oregon St, Texas A&M, Clemson, Liberty, Virginia Tech and U Conn are the only ones that come to mind.

Depends on what you mean by major.  Cornell is an Ivy League university and doesn't have an Interstate connection.

I don't think university presence has much to do with designation or connection.

I'm thinking more in terms of a large student population. IU has 35k undergrads. Add that to the population of Bloomington (79k) and you are talking about over 100k people not directly served by an interstate prior to I-69. I do think that is a factor.

2020 was a weird exception due to COVID, but Census day is April 1 so most students are counted as residents of their college town if they're inside the city limits. I don't think Bloomington has anywhere near 79k without students.

[hobsini2]

US 30 gets more truck traffic than I-69 between Indy and Evansville will ever see. Evansville is served by two interstate routes now, and Fort Wayne is served by only one. US 30 is the only major roadway that radiates from the Chicago metro area that is not a freeway or tollway. Fort Wayne always gets the crumbs, even though it is centrally located between Indy, Chicago, Columbus, and Detroit. You can drive between Owensboro and Bowling Green on an interstate, but not Fort Wayne to Chicago, LOL.

FT Wayne is not a major city, its metro population isn't even half a million people, so it isn't surprising they don't get a lot of attention. I-80/90 isn't too far away so any truck traffic wanting to get to FT Wayne would use that instead of US 30.

I disagree that it isn't a major city, but the lack of a direct interstate connection to Chicago really isn't that surprising.  The fact that IN prioritized I-69 to Evansville rather than some fluffy idea about connecting the larger Fort Wayne to Chicago speaks volumes.

Well, I think one driving force on going to Evansville with I-69 was the fact that Bloomington had a major university with no interstate connection prior to I-69. All the other major universities in Indiana outside of Indy (Notre Dame, Purdue and Ball State) at least had an interstate nearby. Come to think of it, there are very few major universities in the country that don't have an interstate serving the city. Washington St, Idaho, Oregon St, Texas A&M, Clemson, Liberty, Virginia Tech and U Conn are the only ones that come to mind.

Depends on what you mean by major.  Cornell is an Ivy League university and doesn't have an Interstate connection.

I don't think university presence has much to do with designation or connection.

I'm thinking more in terms of a large student population. IU has 35k undergrads. Add that to the population of Bloomington (79k) and you are talking about over 100k people not directly served by an interstate prior to I-69. I do think that is a factor.

2020 was a weird exception due to COVID, but Census day is April 1 so most students are counted as residents of their college town if they're inside the city limits. I don't think Bloomington has anywhere near 79k without students.

Well, the Metro for Bloomington (Monroe & Owen Counties) is over 160k. That's still a sizeable area. That's the 4th largest outside of Indianapolis in Indiana.

[pianocello]

Well, the Metro for Bloomington (Monroe & Owen Counties) is over 160k. That's still a sizeable area. That's the 4th largest outside of Indianapolis in Indiana.

Not that it matters a ton, but I count more than 3 (+ Indianapolis) bigger than 160k... Ft. Wayne, Evansville, South Bend, the Indiana parts of Chicago and Louisville - Shoot, Wikipedia even lists Terre Haute and Lafayette with more residents than Bloomington. Those two surprised me.

Anyway, I agree that US 30 is annoying and I hope the ongoing ProPEL study will recommend eliminating the signals between Valparaiso and Fort Wayne. But I understand INDOT's logic behind prioritizing I-69 down to Evansville vs. US 30. US 30 has been a 4-lane corridor (albeit with signals) for decades, but prior to 2010 there was nothing connecting Evansville and Bloomington - and by extension Indianapolis.

And the statement about Evansville being served by 2 interstates is a little generous, IMO. I-64 serves Evansville about as much as I-70 serves Pittsburgh.

[silverback1065]

Is US 30 really that bad? I mean there are so many other corridors that need work first. I-65, I-70 6 laning come to mind.

[ITB]

Is US 30 really that bad? I mean there are so many other corridors that need work first. I-65, I-70 6 laning come to mind.

Upgrading US 30 now appears to be a priority for INDOT and the state. A lot of development, both commercial and residential, has been happening along the US 30 corridor. It's booming, really. The push to improve US 30 is well organized and funded, with some backers having considerable political pull. The first contract to improve a section of US 30 in western Allen County is set to be let this spring. Moreover, the recommendations of the recently released Level 3 Screening Report of the US 30 ProPel (East) study lean toward upgrading the corridor to a free-flowing facility. This upgrade is happening. It's no longer a question of "if" or "maybe." The upgrade has all the hallmarks of becoming one of Indiana's principal highway projects during the next 15 years.

[silverback1065]

Is US 30 really that bad? I mean there are so many other corridors that need work first. I-65, I-70 6 laning come to mind.

Upgrading US 30 now appears to be a priority for INDOT and the state. In that area of the state, a lot of development, both commercial and residential, has been happening. It's booming, really. The push to improve US 30 is well organized and funded, with some backers having considerable political pull. This upgrade is happening. The first contract to improve a section of US 30 in western Allen County is set to be let this spring. Moreover, the recommendations of the recently released Level 3 Screening Report of the US 30 ProPel (East) study lean toward upgrading the corridor to a free flowing facility. 

Good to hear, I haven't not driven this area much so I was curious. Seems to me the lowest hanging fruit is 30 from 469 to ohio.

[I-55]

Is US 30 really that bad? I mean there are so many other corridors that need work first. I-65, I-70 6 laning come to mind.

Upgrading US 30 now appears to be a priority for INDOT and the state. In that area of the state, a lot of development, both commercial and residential, has been happening. It's booming, really. The push to improve US 30 is well organized and funded, with some backers having considerable political pull. This upgrade is happening. The first contract to improve a section of US 30 in western Allen County is set to be let this spring. Moreover, the recommendations of the recently released Level 3 Screening Report of the US 30 ProPel (East) study lean toward upgrading the corridor to a free flowing facility. 

Good to hear, I haven't not driven this area much so I was curious. Seems to me the lowest hanging fruit is 30 from 469 to ohio.

It certainly is the low hanging fruit since most of the route (aside from Doyle Rd and the I-469 NB ramp traffic lights) is already free flow. The scope of improvements recommended in the level 3 screening is minimal compared to places west of Fort Wayne (particularly Warsaw and Columbia City freeways) as this segment maybe gets 1 or 2 more RCI's.

[westerninterloper]

Well, the Metro for Bloomington (Monroe & Owen Counties) is over 160k. That's still a sizeable area. That's the 4th largest outside of Indianapolis in Indiana.

Not that it matters a ton, but I count more than 3 (+ Indianapolis) bigger than 160k... Ft. Wayne, Evansville, South Bend, the Indiana parts of Chicago and Louisville - Shoot, Wikipedia even lists Terre Haute and Lafayette with more residents than Bloomington. Those two surprised me.

Anyway, I agree that US 30 is annoying and I hope the ongoing ProPEL study will recommend eliminating the signals between Valparaiso and Fort Wayne. But I understand INDOT's logic behind prioritizing I-69 down to Evansville vs. US 30. US 30 has been a 4-lane corridor (albeit with signals) for decades, but prior to 2010 there was nothing connecting Evansville and Bloomington - and by extension Indianapolis.

And the statement about Evansville being served by 2 interstates is a little generous, IMO. I-64 serves Evansville about as much as I-70 serves Pittsburgh.

Terre Haute was the same size as Ft Wayne, South Bend and Evansville until about 1920; then the farm economy and Prohibition put a boot on the city's neck, and the metro has remained stable but stagnant for 100 years. Imagine if Terre Haute was the size of Ft. Wayne...it's the original Rust Belt city.

I-69 was driven in part by Evansville boosters wanting a direct route to Indianapolis, but in my mind it was the chance that the Crane Naval Weapons center would close that forced the hand of Indiana legislators - it is the major employer in SW Indiana, and its closing would devastate many rural counties. IU has been pushed to make closer connections to Crane in research - perhaps to justify the investment in the road.

The Bloomington-Indy segment definitely needed to be interstate grade, but I'm not sure a 4-lane interstate between Washington and Bloomington was necessary - it still has very little traffic, though having driven it several times to see family in Evansville and Vincennes, it is a big improvement from the old Terre Haute route.

[Great Lakes Roads]

https://propelindy.com/resources/

The draft universal of concepts for the ProPEL Indy study is now available...

Eliminated concepts- tunnel, reroute through traffic to I-465, remove segment(s) of interstate, add interstate spur, parallel route, railroad crossing improvements, bus transit, passenger rail, on-demand transportation service, increased freight rail service

https://www.in.gov/indot/about-indot/central-office/welcome-to-the-greenfield-district/state-road-37-improvement-project-in-noblesville/

Public meeting for the SR 37 improvement project in Noblesville on December 11th.

Project overview: "The purpose of the SR 37 Improvement Project is to eliminate or reduce congestion at the nine signalized intersections on SR 37 between 126th Street and SR 32. This project will improve the Level of Service at each intersection during the morning and evening peak periods.

This project also aims to reduce crashes at eight identified intersections (126th Street, 131st Street, 141st Street, 146th Street, Greenfield Avenue, Town and Country Boulevard, Pleasant Street, and SR 32). All eight intersections have higher than average crash rates for comparable intersections. This project will reduce the overall occurrence of crashes at each intersection from Greenfield Avenue to SR 32/38."

[Life in Paradise]

Well, the Metro for Bloomington (Monroe & Owen Counties) is over 160k. That's still a sizeable area. That's the 4th largest outside of Indianapolis in Indiana.

Not that it matters a ton, but I count more than 3 (+ Indianapolis) bigger than 160k... Ft. Wayne, Evansville, South Bend, the Indiana parts of Chicago and Louisville - Shoot, Wikipedia even lists Terre Haute and Lafayette with more residents than Bloomington. Those two surprised me.

Anyway, I agree that US 30 is annoying and I hope the ongoing ProPEL study will recommend eliminating the signals between Valparaiso and Fort Wayne. But I understand INDOT's logic behind prioritizing I-69 down to Evansville vs. US 30. US 30 has been a 4-lane corridor (albeit with signals) for decades, but prior to 2010 there was nothing connecting Evansville and Bloomington - and by extension Indianapolis.

And the statement about Evansville being served by 2 interstates is a little generous, IMO. I-64 serves Evansville about as much as I-70 serves Pittsburgh.

Terre Haute was the same size as Ft Wayne, South Bend and Evansville until about 1920; then the farm economy and Prohibition put a boot on the city's neck, and the metro has remained stable but stagnant for 100 years. Imagine if Terre Haute was the size of Ft. Wayne...it's the original Rust Belt city.

I-69 was driven in part by Evansville boosters wanting a direct route to Indianapolis, but in my mind it was the chance that the Crane Naval Weapons center would close that forced the hand of Indiana legislators - it is the major employer in SW Indiana, and its closing would devastate many rural counties. IU has been pushed to make closer connections to Crane in research - perhaps to justify the investment in the road.

The Bloomington-Indy segment definitely needed to be interstate grade, but I'm not sure a 4-lane interstate between Washington and Bloomington was necessary - it still has very little traffic, though having driven it several times to see family in Evansville and Vincennes, it is a big improvement from the old Terre Haute route.

I think you will find that the road traffic south of Bloomington will start increasing closer to when the Ohio River bridge is completed.  That will give some validation that I-69 to I-169 to I-24 is a alternative to staying on I-65 through Louisville going south.  There will be others that start to use the road as well.  I've noticed increased traffic as the construction on the south side of Indianapolis steamrolls towards completion.

[mgk920]

Is there anything in the current INDOT study docket about completing a north-south four lane bypass of Terre Haute, perhaps by extending IN 641?

Mike

[Rothman]

Well, the Metro for Bloomington (Monroe & Owen Counties) is over 160k. That's still a sizeable area. That's the 4th largest outside of Indianapolis in Indiana.

Not that it matters a ton, but I count more than 3 (+ Indianapolis) bigger than 160k... Ft. Wayne, Evansville, South Bend, the Indiana parts of Chicago and Louisville - Shoot, Wikipedia even lists Terre Haute and Lafayette with more residents than Bloomington. Those two surprised me.

Anyway, I agree that US 30 is annoying and I hope the ongoing ProPEL study will recommend eliminating the signals between Valparaiso and Fort Wayne. But I understand INDOT's logic behind prioritizing I-69 down to Evansville vs. US 30. US 30 has been a 4-lane corridor (albeit with signals) for decades, but prior to 2010 there was nothing connecting Evansville and Bloomington - and by extension Indianapolis.

And the statement about Evansville being served by 2 interstates is a little generous, IMO. I-64 serves Evansville about as much as I-70 serves Pittsburgh.

Terre Haute was the same size as Ft Wayne, South Bend and Evansville until about 1920; then the farm economy and Prohibition put a boot on the city's neck, and the metro has remained stable but stagnant for 100 years. Imagine if Terre Haute was the size of Ft. Wayne...it's the original Rust Belt city.

I-69 was driven in part by Evansville boosters wanting a direct route to Indianapolis, but in my mind it was the chance that the Crane Naval Weapons center would close that forced the hand of Indiana legislators - it is the major employer in SW Indiana, and its closing would devastate many rural counties. IU has been pushed to make closer connections to Crane in research - perhaps to justify the investment in the road.

The Bloomington-Indy segment definitely needed to be interstate grade, but I'm not sure a 4-lane interstate between Washington and Bloomington was necessary - it still has very little traffic, though having driven it several times to see family in Evansville and Vincennes, it is a big improvement from the old Terre Haute route.

I think you will find that the road traffic south of Bloomington will start increasing closer to when the Ohio River bridge is completed.  That will give some validation that I-69 to I-169 to I-24 is a alternative to staying on I-65 through Louisville going south.  There will be others that start to use the road as well.  I've noticed increased traffic as the construction on the south side of Indianapolis steamrolls towards completion.

I'm not so sure.  I-69 gets squiggly.

[The Ghostbuster]

There's too much development along US 40/IN 46 for a freeway conversion to occur, and north of Wabash Ave there are campgrounds that wouldn't be allowed to be plowed down. Bypassing 40/46 to the east interferes with the Terre Haute Regional Airport, and going to the west is also a no-go. The time to build an eastern bypass of Terre Haute would have been decades ago, when there wasn't so much development.

[Life in Paradise]

There's too much development along US 40/IN 46 for a freeway conversion to occur, and north of Wabash Ave there are campgrounds that wouldn't be allowed to be plowed down. Bypassing 40/46 to the east interferes with the Terre Haute Regional Airport, and going to the west is also a no-go. The time to build an eastern bypass of Terre Haute would have been decades ago, when there wasn't so much development.

Perfect time to plan for it would have been years ago, perhaps when they started the IN-641 project discussions in 1989 (which was constructed for what had appeared to be forever, but was late 2000s through the mid 2010s).  They would have only have had to deal with a truck stop and a fast food joint or two in the early 2000s and it probably would have been easier near Wabash Ave. 

[ITB]

Earlier today, INDOT opened the bids for its December lettings. Among the dozens of contracts let, three in particular stand out:

1) New US 52/I-65 interchange in Boone County. This will be a diverging diamond interchange, built to serve the LEAP Innovation District. Milestone Contractors, with a bid of $60,405,800, was the low bidder.

2) Two new bridges over US 31 in Hamilton County—226th Street and 266th Street—plus access control along US 31. This project will modify a section of US 31 to a limited access freeway. Rieth-Riley Construction Co. was the low bidder, with a bid of $36,260,346.65.

3) In Hancock County, 3.79 miles of I-70 will be resurfaced with asphalt. E&B Paving was the low bidder among three, with a bid of $31,998,849.20. 

Nothing will be official until next week, but the pertinent bids received were below the engineer's estimates, so they'll likely go through barring some unforeseen circumstances. Check out all the apparent bid results for the December lettings here.
 

[jnewkirk77]

There's too much development along US 40/IN 46 for a freeway conversion to occur, and north of Wabash Ave there are campgrounds that wouldn't be allowed to be plowed down. Bypassing 40/46 to the east interferes with the Terre Haute Regional Airport, and going to the west is also a no-go. The time to build an eastern bypass of Terre Haute would have been decades ago, when there wasn't so much development.

You could get some of the same benefit of an eastern bypass by widening North Fruitridge from Steelton Ave to Haythorne, and then 4-lane Haythorne from the roundabout over to 41. At the least, it'd be worth a look.

[Great Lakes Roads]

https://www.wishtv.com/news/local-news/noblesville-state-road-37-improvement-preview-listening-meeting/

Are we looking at a similar project to the one down in Fishers?
Removing traffic signals and replacing them with interchanges.

[silverback1065]

There's too much development along US 40/IN 46 for a freeway conversion to occur, and north of Wabash Ave there are campgrounds that wouldn't be allowed to be plowed down. Bypassing 40/46 to the east interferes with the Terre Haute Regional Airport, and going to the west is also a no-go. The time to build an eastern bypass of Terre Haute would have been decades ago, when there wasn't so much development.

you can go through the campground, it's just a REALLY bad idea. I can't remember the exact law but I've been told if you take land from a park you have to replace the land 2x or more times the original!

[silverback1065]

https://www.wishtv.com/news/local-news/noblesville-state-road-37-improvement-preview-listening-meeting/

Are we looking at a similar project to the one down in Fishers?
Removing traffic signals and replacing them with interchanges.

it's the same project, just the noblesville portion.

[JREwing78]

There's too much development along US 40/IN 46 for a freeway conversion to occur, and north of Wabash Ave there are campgrounds that wouldn't be allowed to be plowed down. Bypassing 40/46 to the east interferes with the Terre Haute Regional Airport, and going to the west is also a no-go. The time to build an eastern bypass of Terre Haute would have been decades ago, when there wasn't so much development.

Punching IN-63 though west of the Wabash River down to I-70 wouldn't be ideal, but we're not displacing homes or campgrounds in the process. It can also be dragged south and connect back into US-41/150 at the IN-641 interchange.

[NWI_Irish96]

There's too much development along US 40/IN 46 for a freeway conversion to occur, and north of Wabash Ave there are campgrounds that wouldn't be allowed to be plowed down. Bypassing 40/46 to the east interferes with the Terre Haute Regional Airport, and going to the west is also a no-go. The time to build an eastern bypass of Terre Haute would have been decades ago, when there wasn't so much development.

Punching IN-63 though west of the Wabash River down to I-70 wouldn't be ideal, but we're not displacing homes or campgrounds in the process. It can also be dragged south and connect back into US-41/150 at the IN-641 interchange.

There's no way INDOT is going to shell out for another Wabash River crossing.

Extending IN 63 down to I-70 is reasonable. Could route US 41 and 150 along there to give South 3rd street back to the city.

Not sure you can get any new terrain route south of I-70, but at least that would help a little.

[silverback1065]

I remember seeing a map years ago of a Terre haute bypass and it ran along the east side of the city.

[Revive 755]

There's no way INDOT is going to shell out for another Wabash River crossing.

Maybe if there's a Foxconn type development southwest of Terre Haute . . .