Plane crash in Washington

[kernals12]

An American Airlines flight from Wichita, KS collided with an Army helicopter over the Potomac. No survivors have been found. 64 were on the plane and 3 were on the helicopter.

[formulanone]

What could go wrong doing night training with sluggishly moving helicopters around nimble passenger aircraft near one of the nation's busiest civilian airports with a ton of flight restrictions?

My condolences to those involved.

[kernals12]

What could go wrong doing night training with sluggishly moving helicopters around nimble passenger aircraft near one of the nation's busiest civilian airports with a ton of flight restrictions?

My condolences to those involved.

The Army has a lot of explaining to do (and a lot of litigation to settle).

[kalvado]

What could go wrong doing night training with sluggishly moving helicopters around nimble passenger aircraft near one of the nation's busiest civilian airports with a ton of flight restrictions?

My condolences to those involved.

The Army has a lot of explaining to do (and a lot of litigation to settle).

No litigation, sovereign immunity - and it is the end of story, please call your insurance company for further details and possible payments.
Explaining probably would be limited to "national security matters, get lost".

[kernals12]

What could go wrong doing night training with sluggishly moving helicopters around nimble passenger aircraft near one of the nation's busiest civilian airports with a ton of flight restrictions?

My condolences to those involved.

The Army has a lot of explaining to do (and a lot of litigation to settle).

No litigation, sovereign immunity - and it is the end of story, please call your insurance company for further details and possible payments.
Explaining probably would be limited to "national security matters, get lost".

That's not true. People can sue under the Federal Tort Claims Act. 3 years ago, a sailor got $493,000 in damages after he was hit by a vehicle being driven by an active duty servicemember.

[jgb191]

I was watching the movie "Sully" (released in 2016) when the collision occurred. 

[Scott5114]

One air traffic controller was responsible for coordinating helicopter traffic and arriving and departing planes when the collision happened, according to a report by the Federal Aviation Administration obtained by The Associated Press. Those duties are often shared by two people, but the airport typically combines the separate roles at 9:30 p.m, once traffic begins to slow down. The supervisor in the tower directed they be combined earlier.

"The position configuration was not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic," the report said. A person familiar with the matter, however, said the tower staffing on Wednesday night was at a normal level.

The positions are regularly combined when controllers need to step away from the console for breaks, during shift changes or when air traffic is slow, the person said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal procedures.

[dvferyance]

Sad but at least we went 16 years without a fatal plane crash. That's pretty good considering when I was growing up you heard about plane crashes quite frequently.

[formulanone]

Sad but at least we went 16 years without a fatal plane crash. That's pretty good considering when I was growing up you heard about plane crashes quite frequently.

When I was younger, there were at least one or two commercial air crashes in the US every year until around 2002. Seemingly every airline took their lumps, and you mostly just assumed it was part of the risk, yet also still statistically rare.

Increased safety standards, tight maintenance schedules, valuing of precaution, increased testing/simulation, a strict adherence to rules, duty hours, standards, and parameters have kept things so much safer in the last 20-odd years. There's a lot of lessons learned as cautionary tales but also a lot of professionals keeping us safe in those flying tubes.

[Henry]

Also, tragically ironic that this comes to months after the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapsed in Baltimore. This is why I never liked flying in the first place.

[wanderer2575]

Also, tragically ironic that this comes to months after the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapsed in Baltimore. This is why I never liked flying in the first place.

Huh?  I don't like flying either, but it had nothing to do with the Key Bridge tragedy.  If anything, that tragedy suggested that we stay away from ships and driving across bridges.

[bing101]

Trump takes aim, without evidence, at diversity policies over midair collision - https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-takes-aim-without-evidence-diversity-policies-over-midair-collision-2025-01-30/

OK but this is really about how FAA could have reduced the risk of collision between Helicopter and Jet in question.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2025/01/30/black-hawk-helicopter-plane-crash-dc-pattern/78048095007/

[US 89]

Sad but at least we went 16 years without a fatal plane crash. That's pretty good considering when I was growing up you heard about plane crashes quite frequently.

16 years? Even limiting to the US, the last fatal commercial airplane crash was in 2019 on an Alaska Airlines codeshare flight operated by PenAir.

[jmacswimmer]

I saw people claiming on the aviation subreddit, and the flightaware tracker seems to back it up, that the airliner was originally set on approach for runway 1 but then was switched to runway 33 fairly late, perhaps to clear departure backlogs on runway 1. (Runway 1 being the longest and typically-used runway parallel to the Potomac with a final approach directly above the Wilson Bridge, whereas 33 is shorter and diagonal to the Potomac.) This meant that the airliner banked to the right out of its straight approach above the Potomac around National Harbor and banked back to the left above Joint Base Anacostia-Bolling for a final diagonal crossing of the Potomac just prior to the runway 33 threshold, thus setting up a collision course that might not have existed if it remained on the straight approach to runway 1. It sounded like the ATC tower did its job confirming that the helicopter had visual on the airliner and directing the helicopter to pass behind, despite one controller juggling the 2 positions. Saw reports late last night that the helicopter's altitude may have been too high in addition to other reddit theories that the helicopter may have been incorrectly looking at other lights when they confirmed visual, may have been primarily watching for arrivals on runway 1...lots of variables to consider.

DCA is a rather hemmed-in airport as it is, generally operating with a single runway and the Potomac River basically being the only flightpath in/out due to all the surrounding restrictions. Then you add in all the helicopter traffic, also restricted to the river as I understand it, and there's absolutely zero margin for error.

The flightaware link for anyone interested:
https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL5342/history/20250129/2328Z/KICT/KDCA

Also, tragically ironic that this comes to months after the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapsed in Baltimore. .

Speaking of the Key Bridge, saw reports that the same crane used to lift that wreckage out of the water is now being barged down to DC to do the same for this wreckage.

Edit - The CNN post originally announcing that last night was revised at some point and now says "Earlier plans were to use a crane provided by the US Coast Guard, but the source of the crane is now to be determined." So maybe not.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/plane-crash-dca-potomac-washington-dc-01-29-25/index.html

[bing101]

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2025/01/30/3-army-soldiers-feared-dead-tragic-collision-passenger-plane-near-dc-airport.html

Three Army soldiers died in the crash and they were based out of Fort Belvoir according to this report.

[Ted$8roadFan]

I'm not an aviation expert, but I wonder what the federal government can actually do to percent future crashes. Reagan National has many unique characteristics- prominent location, higher popularity with influential people, and uniqu restrictions in its airspace - that most other airports don't have.

The number of helicopter flights in the DCA airspace that aren't going away. Members of Congress have arguably made things even more complicated by adding more flights than the airport might be expected to handle, but they have a vested interest in the convenience of flying into and out of Reagan National (imagine having to drive to and from Dulles or Marshall/BWI). Adding air traffic controllers is an obvious fix, but federal employment isn't exactly appealing right now.

[1995hoo]

I saw people claiming on the aviation subreddit, and the flightaware tracker seems to back it up, that the airliner was originally set on approach for runway 1 but then was switched to runway 33 fairly late, perhaps to clear departure backlogs on the same runway. (Runway 1 being the longest and typically-used runway parallel to the Potomac with a final approach directly above the Wilson Bridge, whereas 33 is shorter and diagonal to the Potomac.) This meant that the airliner banked to the right out of its straight approach above the Potomac around National Harbor and banked back to the left above Joint Base Anacostia-Bolling for a final diagonal crossing of the Potomac just prior to the runway 33 threshold, thus setting up a collision course that might not have existed if it remained on the straight approach to runway 1. It sounded like the ATC tower did its job confirming that the helicopter had visual on the airliner and directing the helicopter to pass behind, despite one controller juggling the 2 positions. Saw reports late last night that the helicopter's altitude may have been too high in addition to other reddit theories that the helicopter may have been incorrectly looking at other lights when they confirmed visual, may have been primarily watching for arrivals on runway 1...lots of variables to consider.

....

The issue of using Runway 33 was a heavy topic of discussion on last night's news. While it's not "rare" for it to be used, its usage is quite significantly less than the main Runway 1/19, such that when a plane uses 15/33 you definitely notice it if you're passing through the area because the plane flies in a noticeably different direction than most others do. (The third runway, 4/22, is not currently in active service for departures and I can't ever remember it being used for landings. It was always really strange to see a departure from Runway 4 because it meant the departing aircraft flew roughly over the Anacostia River, where you don't normally see civilian air traffic.)

[kalvado]

I'm not an aviation expert, but I wonder what the federal government can actually do to percent future crashes. Reagan National has many unique characteristics- prominent location, higher popularity with influential people, and uniqu restrictions in its airspace - that most other airports don't have.

The number of helicopter flights in the DCA airspace that aren't going away. Members of Congress have arguably made things even more complicated by adding more flights than the airport might be expected to handle, but they have a vested interest in the convenience of flying into and out of Reagan National (imagine having to drive to and from Dulles or Marshall/BWI). Adding air traffic controllers is an obvious fix, but federal employment isn't exactly appealing right now.

A lot of things happening in aviation, moreso in US (EU is quite a bit better), are basically on WWII, at best 1950-1960 technology level - while trying to handle 2020s lifestyle. I don't know how to handle that.
 An straightforward reaction of banning things which are obviously dangerous would kill traffic in major cities - SFO would loose quarter of the flight capacity, NYC maybe half. Did anyone say "riots"?
Chicago did some bold moves to improve, but that wasn't easy.

[Rothman]

Military helicopters running without ADS-B out of "secrecy" reasons may also have contributed.

Hard not to see how this wasn't an ATC failure, especially with the reliance on visual contact at night from the helicopter.

Still, the official report will be enlightening.

[bing101]

Trump says Blackhawk helicopter in DC crash was flying too high - https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-blackhawk-helicopter-dc-crash-was-flying-too-high-2025-01-31/

Umm OK but also it's a case of what Fort Belvoir could have done to let Reagan Air Traffic control know that a Helicopter is in their airspace.

[kalvado]

Trump says Blackhawk helicopter in DC crash was flying too high - https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-blackhawk-helicopter-dc-crash-was-flying-too-high-2025-01-31/

Umm OK but also it's a case of what Fort Belvoir could have done to let Reagan Air Traffic control know that a Helicopter is in their airspace.

Everyone knew what was going on. Helicopter was indeed higher than it should be - and seemingly too far from where they should be with respect to the river.

Military helicopters running without ADS-B out of "secrecy" reasons may also have contributed.

Hard not to see how this wasn't an ATC failure, especially with the reliance on visual contact at night from the helicopter.

Still, the official report will be enlightening.

As far as I understand, helicopter had transponder on. ATC was running one person low, though. 
Ultimate problem is that someone wants to have a cake and eat it too - while also giving same cake to a friend.
There is no way to cram all the air traffic into DC airspace without either VERY significant technology upgrade - or flying with Eyeball 1.0 instrumentation on a prayer and a wing.

[kphoger]

It sounded like the ATC tower did its job confirming that the helicopter had visual on the airliner and directing the helicopter to pass behind, despite one controller juggling the 2 positions.

#notapilot

If this is true, then it seems to me that at least part of the blame should be removed from ADS-B or lack thereof.  If the helicopter pilot had a visual on the approaching passenger plane, and assuming ADS-B didn't tell the passenger pilot to take evasive action, then what more would ADS-B have done for the helicopter pilot that wasn't already accomplished by a visual?

[kalvado]

It sounded like the ATC tower did its job confirming that the helicopter had visual on the airliner and directing the helicopter to pass behind, despite one controller juggling the 2 positions.

#notapilot

If this is true, then it seems to me that at least part of the blame should be removed from ADS-B or lack thereof.  If the helicopter pilot had a visual on the approaching passenger plane, and assuming ADS-B didn't tell the passenger pilot to take evasive action, then what more would ADS-B have done for the helicopter pilot that wasn't already accomplished by a visual?

A speculation - but a very likely one - is that helicopter pilot was using night vision googles, and many describe it as "looking through a toilet paper roll". Helicopter pilot did confirm he saw the plane - but speculation is that it was either the wrong plane, or some other light.
ADS-B isn't there for pilot but for the ATC. Speculation is, again a likely one, that dispatcher did have a collision warning on display but didn't see it working 2 jobs - or thinking that visual confirmation is enough  to resolve the problem.
TCAS - collision avoidance system - is disabled within certain distance from the airport as it would warn pilot about being too close to planes on the ground, or suggest  impossible to implement avoidance steps - like descending below the ground level.

[kphoger]

ADS-B isn't there for pilot but for the ATC. Speculation is, again a likely one, that dispatcher did have a collision warning on display but didn't see it working 2 jobs - or thinking that visual confirmation is enough  to resolve the problem.

TCAS - collision avoidance system - is disabled within certain distance from the airport as it would warn pilot about being too close to planes on the ground, or suggest  impossible to implement avoidance steps - like descending below the ground level.

Ah, thanks, I was getting ADS and TCAS mixed up.

[1995hoo]

WTOP reports that the FAA will impose significant new restrictions on most helicopter traffic in that area. Obviously, they can't ban all such traffic given the proximity to the White House.