Ohio

[seicer]

It's more detailed in the study (PDF). The alignment utilizes some roads for much of the proposed truck bypass.

[westerninterloper]

youngstown is another city i argue should never have had any downtown freeways in the first place.

When the downtown loop was envisioned and gradually built, downtown Youngstown was still healthy with retail, the University, and most importantly -- the steel mills which nearly surrounded the area.  The factories were the reason why they needed all the freeways in the area -- mostly to keep the factory traffic from choking up the city streets.

Unfortunately, when the "loop" was completed in the mid-70s, the steel mill industry collapsed and ultimately closed while the malls in the outlying areas of Youngstown pretty much took what was left of the downtown retail. And practically overnight, the freeway loop became overkill for the town.

Population projections, like most, anticipated continued growth for Ohio's cities and metro areas. I haven't seen any predictions from the 1950s or early 1960s that Ohio's metros would stagnate and lose population. They were building this infrastructure for a city twice the size, which they anticipated we'd reach right about now. Can you imagine Ohio's cities with *twice* their 1950 city populations today? Metro areas 3 or 4 times as large? The only city that achieved that was Columbus.

Imagine today's interstate infrastructure built for cities this size:

2020 Midwest City Populations had doubled since 1950:
Cleveland: 1,900,000 (would be 5th largest today, between Houston and Phoenix)
Cincinnati: 1,100,000 (10th largest, below Dallas)
Columbus: 700,000 (it grew faster, currently 913K)
Toledo: 606,000 (Portland, OR; Louisville KY)
Akron: 550,000 (Albuquerque, Tucson)
Dayton: 485,000 (Omaha, Raleigh)
Youngstown: 230,000 (Boise, Norfolk)
Canton: 230,000 (Richmond, VA; Huntsville)

[thenetwork]

Back in 1950:

In the case of Cleveland and Youngstown, nobody expected the steel mills to die off by 1980.

For Akron, nobody expected the tire & rubber companies to move their factories and assembly lines out of their town.

[TempoNick]

youngstown is another city i argue should never have had any downtown freeways in the first place.

When the downtown loop was envisioned and gradually built, downtown Youngstown was still healthy with retail, the University, and most importantly -- the steel mills which nearly surrounded the area.  The factories were the reason why they needed all the freeways in the area -- mostly to keep the factory traffic from choking up the city streets.

Unfortunately, when the "loop" was completed in the mid-70s, the steel mill industry collapsed and ultimately closed while the malls in the outlying areas of Youngstown pretty much took what was left of the downtown retail. And practically overnight, the freeway loop became overkill for the town.

Population projections, like most, anticipated continued growth for Ohio's cities and metro areas. I haven't seen any predictions from the 1950s or early 1960s that Ohio's metros would stagnate and lose population. They were building this infrastructure for a city twice the size, which they anticipated we'd reach right about now. Can you imagine Ohio's cities with *twice* their 1950 city populations today? Metro areas 3 or 4 times as large? The only city that achieved that was Columbus.

Imagine today's interstate infrastructure built for cities this size:

2020 Midwest City Populations had doubled since 1950:
Cleveland: 1,900,000 (would be 5th largest today, between Houston and Phoenix)
Cincinnati: 1,100,000 (10th largest, below Dallas)
Columbus: 700,000 (it grew faster, currently 913K)
Toledo: 606,000 (Portland, OR; Louisville KY)
Akron: 550,000 (Albuquerque, Tucson)
Dayton: 485,000 (Omaha, Raleigh)
Youngstown: 230,000 (Boise, Norfolk)
Canton: 230,000 (Richmond, VA; Huntsville)

Metro population or county population is what counts, not city population. City population is usually an irrelevant statistic when looking at anything from a regional perspective.

[westerninterloper]

youngstown is another city i argue should never have had any downtown freeways in the first place.

When the downtown loop was envisioned and gradually built, downtown Youngstown was still healthy with retail, the University, and most importantly -- the steel mills which nearly surrounded the area.  The factories were the reason why they needed all the freeways in the area -- mostly to keep the factory traffic from choking up the city streets.

Unfortunately, when the "loop" was completed in the mid-70s, the steel mill industry collapsed and ultimately closed while the malls in the outlying areas of Youngstown pretty much took what was left of the downtown retail. And practically overnight, the freeway loop became overkill for the town.

Population projections, like most, anticipated continued growth for Ohio's cities and metro areas. I haven't seen any predictions from the 1950s or early 1960s that Ohio's metros would stagnate and lose population. They were building this infrastructure for a city twice the size, which they anticipated we'd reach right about now. Can you imagine Ohio's cities with *twice* their 1950 city populations today? Metro areas 3 or 4 times as large? The only city that achieved that was Columbus.

Imagine today's interstate infrastructure built for cities this size:

2020 Midwest City Populations had doubled since 1950:
Cleveland: 1,900,000 (would be 5th largest today, between Houston and Phoenix)
Cincinnati: 1,100,000 (10th largest, below Dallas)
Columbus: 700,000 (it grew faster, currently 913K)
Toledo: 606,000 (Portland, OR; Louisville KY)
Akron: 550,000 (Albuquerque, Tucson)
Dayton: 485,000 (Omaha, Raleigh)
Youngstown: 230,000 (Boise, Norfolk)
Canton: 230,000 (Richmond, VA; Huntsville)

Metro population or county population is what counts, not city population. City population is usually an irrelevant statistic when looking at anything from a regional perspective.

Since 1980, only two major Ohio metro areas have had any substantive growth:
Cincinnati has added about 500,000 people -- steady growth; and
Columbus has added over a million, and will soon have double its 1980 population.

Every other metro has been flat, and several have lost people.

Maybe from an ecological perspective this could be considered healthy, to have a relatively stable population over the last 40 years?

[paulthemapguy]

Back in 1950:

In the case of Cleveland and Youngstown, nobody expected the steel mills to die off by 1980.

For Akron, nobody expected the tire & rubber companies to move their factories and assembly lines out of their town.

People should understand that the obsolescence of institutions contributing to the overall success of cities is never planned. It looks like you understand, but many other people out there want to blame cities for sucking at being cities when they slow down or lose population, and it's never that simple.

This whole "what if these slow-growing or shrinking cities doubled in population?" hypothetical might make for a fantastic prompt over in Fictional Highways.

[TempoNick]

Maybe from an ecological perspective this could be considered healthy, to have a relatively stable population over the last 40 years?

Ohio is or was the 7th most populous state. It is also the 6th or 7th most densely populated state. As far as I'm concerned, we don't need to grow anymore than right where we are, not to mention that thanks to automation we may not need as many bodies as we used to need.

[TempoNick]

People should understand that the obsolescence of institutions contributing to the overall success of cities is never planned. It looks like you understand, but many other people out there want to blame cities for sucking at being cities when they slow down or lose population, and it's never that simple.

People act like a tacky suburban home is meant to last the ages like some Roman building made of stone. Houses really aren't that much different from cars. As they get passed down to new owners, they get progressively older and shïttier. The exception is high-end neighborhoods, but for everything middle class and below, that seems to be the cycle. That's mainly why these cities get old and people move out to something newer and better, if they can afford to.

[Rothman]

Maybe from an ecological perspective this could be considered healthy, to have a relatively stable population over the last 40 years?

Ohio is or was the 7th most populous state. It is also the 6th or 7th most densely populated state. As far as I'm concerned, we don't need to grow anymore than right where we are, not to mention that thanks to automation we may not need as many bodies as we used to need.

Eh, 7th overall and 10th by density (destiny? ):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density

[Flint1979]

I-75 NB between Piqua and Sidney is closed. I'm in Sidney right now and had to get off at exit 82 and take a route that involved several turns. I'm still trying to figure out where NB opens back up I'm at the Wendy's at exit 92 and Google Maps is telling me to get back on a closed freeway.

[TempoNick]

ODOT is full of stupid people. Extremely stupid and shortsighted.

US 23 needs to be a freeway both north and south of Columbus. These Band-Aid fixes are a waste of money. No if's, and, or butts about it.

Just look at all the freeways going in and out of Indianapolis. And Columbus is supposed to be some kind of a hub for distribution?

Where is Jim Rhodes when we need him? He knew how to attract business and he knew how to build necessary infrastructure.

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2025/02/14/study-limits-toledo-to-columbus-corridor-talks-to-u-s-23-upgrades/stories/20250214111

[Rothman]

ODOT is full of stupid people. Extremely stupid and shortsighted.

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2025/02/14/study-limits-toledo-to-columbus-corridor-talks-to-u-s-23-upgrades/stories/20250214111

Heh.  I suppose that's one perspective.  Building a limited access highway parallel to US 23?  Does sound ridiculously expensive to the point of infeasibility.

[Ted$8roadFan]

The lack-of-Interstate-highway-to-Columbus has been a burr under the saddle of John Robinson Block (publisher of The Blade) for decades. 

[GCrites]

I suppose I would be too considering how little exchange there is between Toledo and Columbus as compared to the other 2Cs and both cities.

[TempoNick]

The lack-of-Interstate-highway-to-Columbus has been a burr under the saddle of John Robinson Block (publisher of The Blade) for decades. 

As it should be!

ODOT is full of stupid people. Extremely stupid and shortsighted.

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2025/02/14/study-limits-toledo-to-columbus-corridor-talks-to-u-s-23-upgrades/stories/20250214111

Heh.  I suppose that's one perspective.  Building a limited access highway parallel to US 23?  Does sound ridiculously expensive to the point of infeasibility.

The Columbus area has effectively doubled in population since 1980. You're telling me that the same infrastructure built 50 years ago is appropriate for today and into the future? Their US 23 North plan is a bunch of RIRO's and all kinds of overcomplicated solutions instead of doing things the right way.

It doesn't have to be a parallel interstate. The template is in Indianapolis with what they've done with US 31. I don't know why these crazy people at ODOT are so in love with at grade intersections and all kinds of idiotic configurations instead of going to the proven system of limited access highways.

Limited access is quicker and it's safer.

[Rothman]

The lack-of-Interstate-highway-to-Columbus has been a burr under the saddle of John Robinson Block (publisher of The Blade) for decades. 

As it should be!

ODOT is full of stupid people. Extremely stupid and shortsighted.

https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2025/02/14/study-limits-toledo-to-columbus-corridor-talks-to-u-s-23-upgrades/stories/20250214111

Heh.  I suppose that's one perspective.  Building a limited access highway parallel to US 23?  Does sound ridiculously expensive to the point of infeasibility.

The Columbus area has effectively doubled in population since 1980. You're telling me that the same infrastructure built 50 years ago is appropriate for today and into the future? Their US 23 North plan is a bunch of RIRO's and all kinds of overcomplicated solutions instead of doing things the right way.

It doesn't have to be a parallel interstate. The template is in Indianapolis with what they've done with US 31. I don't know why these crazy people at ODOT are so in love with at grade intersections and all kinds of idiotic configurations instead of going to the proven system of limited access highways.

Limited access is quicker and it's safer.

Well, I'll leave you to keep tilting at that windmill, then.

[thenetwork]

The most logical solution is to incorporate a full limited-access bypass to the north and east of Delaware that connects to I-71 via US-36/SR-37.  This will shift the majority of US-23 traffic from the north over to I-71 and the current businesses along US-23 will remain relatively unblemished.

But logic is illogical in the government.

[vtk]

They did a cost-benefit analysis. Apparently a full freeway, whether it follows the existing corridor, swings west to US-33, or swings east to I-71, would simply be more expensive than the benefit they calculated. I have no idea how they quantified the benefit as a dollar amount.

I still think they should build the freeway. But I have to conclude that they made the decision that they did based on flawed methodology, rather than simple blind foolishness.

[Rothman]

They did a cost-benefit analysis. Apparently a full freeway, whether it follows the existing corridor, swings west to US-33, or swings east to I-71, would simply be more expensive than the benefit they calculated. I have no idea how they quantified the benefit as a dollar amount.

I still think they should build the freeway. But I have to conclude that they made the decision that they did based on flawed methodology, rather than simple blind foolishness.

Pfft.  Benefits are notoriously overestimated (see I-86 in NY).  If it was based upon "flawed methodology," if anything, they exaggerated the benefits and the results would be even more against the new freeway alternatives if adjusted.

[TempoNick]

The most logical solution is to incorporate a full limited-access bypass to the north and east of Delaware that connects to I-71 via US-36/SR-37.  This will shift the majority of US-23 traffic from the north over to I-71 and the current businesses along US-23 will remain relatively unblemished.

But logic is illogical in the government.

Yep. It is so obvious and logical, you have to wonder what is possessing these people to do the illogical.

I just get the notion that ODOT has a bunch of small-minded, small-thinking bureaucrats. They don't think big. They don't do big. Just these little small-minded schemes of theirs that end up wasting money, costing more in the long run and being counterproductive.

A bunch of RIRO'S in the last stretch closest to Columbus is idiotic. Might as well leave it the way it is.

Jim Rhodes got a lot of criticism for building the highway network that we had, but he did it because it was the right thing to do. History has proved him to be correct. If we had a bunch of bean counters in charge back in those days, this state would be a mess.

[TempoNick]

They did a cost-benefit analysis. Apparently a full freeway, whether it follows the existing corridor, swings west to US-33, or swings east to I-71, would simply be more expensive than the benefit they calculated. I have no idea how they quantified the benefit as a dollar amount.

I still think they should build the freeway. But I have to conclude that they made the decision that they did based on flawed methodology, rather than simple blind foolishness.

Of course it's flawed methodology. You don't have to be Albert Einstein to see that there needs to be limited access Highway there. And 36/37 as it is now would be so easy to convert to a limited access highway. Give it another 20 years and that corridor will be hopeless like everything else they've dragged their feet on.

Where is the person in state government who can put their foot down and put a stop to this idiocy.

They did a nice job on US 35 and the upgraded parts of US 33, but here they decide to go cheap? The only fast-growing part of the state, and you're not going to put in the proper highway infrastructure?

ODOT, TRAC and whatever other boards are responsible for this debacle should be blown up and rebuilt from scratch. Disgusting.

[TempoNick]

They did a cost-benefit analysis. Apparently a full freeway, whether it follows the existing corridor, swings west to US-33, or swings east to I-71, would simply be more expensive than the benefit they calculated. I have no idea how they quantified the benefit as a dollar amount.

I still think they should build the freeway. But I have to conclude that they made the decision that they did based on flawed methodology, rather than simple blind foolishness.

Pfft.  Benefits are notoriously overestimated (see I-86 in NY).  If it was based upon "flawed methodology," if anything, they exaggerated the benefits and the results would be even more against the new freeway alternatives if adjusted.

You don't live here and you don't understand the lay of the land. Delaware County is where Columbus is growing. It is very much built out as a matter of fact. Not all the way, but significantly built out. There's not a lot to distinguish it from the rest of Columbus other than the fact that the housing is more pricey. And we still need good access to Toledo and Detroit. After all, this is supposed to be a distribution hub. You can't have semis backed up in stop-and-go traffic or slowing down as people turn off into the next stupid RIRO for 12 miles or however long it is from Worthington to Delaware.

[Rothman]

They did a cost-benefit analysis. Apparently a full freeway, whether it follows the existing corridor, swings west to US-33, or swings east to I-71, would simply be more expensive than the benefit they calculated. I have no idea how they quantified the benefit as a dollar amount.

I still think they should build the freeway. But I have to conclude that they made the decision that they did based on flawed methodology, rather than simple blind foolishness.

Pfft.  Benefits are notoriously overestimated (see I-86 in NY).  If it was based upon "flawed methodology," if anything, they exaggerated the benefits and the results would be even more against the new freeway alternatives if adjusted.

You don't live here and you don't understand the lay of the land. Delaware County is where Columbus is growing. It is very much built out as a matter of fact. Not all the way, but significantly built out. There's not a lot to distinguish it from the rest of Columbus other than the fact that the housing is more pricey. And we still need good access to Toledo and Detroit. After all, this is supposed to be a distribution hub. You can't have semis backed up in stop-and-go traffic or slowing down as people turn off into the next stupid RIRO for 12 miles or however long it is from Worthington to Delaware.

And yet, ODOT disagrees.

[The Ghostbuster]

Although I would like all of US 23 from Interstate 270 to Waldo to be completely freeway, I understand that it would be infeasible to do so. Hopefully the corridor can get some upgrades to ease traffic flow and decrease congestion. All information on the US 23 corridor project is listed here: https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/projects/mega-projects/mega-projects/23-connect.

[tigerwings]

Delaware does now want a bypass per prior input.

They want the traffic for the businesses, and the police like to write tickets in the 45 MPH zones.

I've been using 36/37 or 229 for decades.