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The Next Generation of the Interstate

Started by California5, February 25, 2025, 01:49:13 AM

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english si

Quote from: kernals12 on February 28, 2025, 05:54:43 PMExcept that cars are private and don't run on fixed schedules
Except they will form part of public 'trains' that will run on fixed schedules when they convoy up to run at 150mph....


mgk920

IMHO, it will also be very interesting when the more 'European' style lighter passenger trains that were approved over the past few years by the FRA start appearing en masse here in the USA.

Mike

kernals12

Quote from: english si on March 01, 2025, 03:45:08 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 28, 2025, 05:54:43 PMExcept that cars are private and don't run on fixed schedules
Except they will form part of public 'trains' that will run on fixed schedules when they convoy up to run at 150mph....
They'll only form convoys when traffic is heavy enough

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2025, 05:07:30 PMWhat I don't understand is that these things seem like they would inevitably cause property damage and/or injury and/or death on a regular basis. (Even if all of these things are normal parts of the driving landscape, surely people get unlucky sometimes and an accident occurs, since they do even with US safety features.) When that happens, everyone just accepts it and doesn't ask themselves if maybe lessons could be learned to avoid it happening again in the future?

In a way, you just admitted that Americans have accepted the property damage and/or injury and/or death that occur on an occasional a regular basis here in the States.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

Well, sure. But that's mostly because all the safety features in the world won't stop someone from driving drunk or doing 150 mph on a road designed for 35, or what have you. You can't make anything 100% safe. But that's no reason to not prevent the crashes you can prevent.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 03, 2025, 02:57:39 PMWell, sure. But that's mostly because all the safety features in the world won't stop someone from driving drunk or doing 150 mph on a road designed for 35, or what have you. You can't make anything 100% safe. But that's no reason to not prevent the crashes you can prevent.

But there are plenty of crashes in this country that we could prevent but don't prevent.  How about vehicles that cross over the median of an Interstate because there's no physical center barrier?  Or trains that hit vehicles because the crossing doesn't have a gate?  Or other stuff that you don't complain about because it's just normal here.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

webny99

Quote from: kphoger on March 03, 2025, 03:01:56 PMBut there are plenty of crashes in this country that we could prevent but don't prevent.

Sure, pretty much anything could be prevented for a cost, but resources are typically limited. This is what cost-benefit analyses are for.

Scott5114

Quote from: kphoger on March 03, 2025, 03:01:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 03, 2025, 02:57:39 PMWell, sure. But that's mostly because all the safety features in the world won't stop someone from driving drunk or doing 150 mph on a road designed for 35, or what have you. You can't make anything 100% safe. But that's no reason to not prevent the crashes you can prevent.

But there are plenty of crashes in this country that we could prevent but don't prevent.  How about vehicles that cross over the median of an Interstate because there's no physical center barrier?  Or trains that hit vehicles because the crossing doesn't have a gate?  Or other stuff that you don't complain about because it's just normal here.

Uh, but we do try to prevent those. Oklahoma added cable barriers to miles and miles of freeway in the state, and ungated rail crossings are pretty uncommon on roads that have appreciable traffic (I'm aware that on rural backroads they still exist). Yes, coverage on both isn't at 100%, but that is more a matter of limited resources requiring prioritization than a belief that they are acceptable.

Remember, some states have a "Vision Zero" policy where they shoot for zero deaths. We all know that's unrealistic to actually achieve, but that's the goal they work toward.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

hobsini2

Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 01:43:37 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 26, 2025, 11:25:27 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2025, 11:15:13 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 10:55:01 AMAircraft have thousands of ways they could break down mechanically. And yet they are the safest means of travel.

Do you know much more expensive passenger cars would be if all instances of "single point of failure" had to be eliminated, as they are for aircraft?

Or inspected prior to every use by a qualified technician.

That's doable, with the "technician" being the car's own electronic brain.

:-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D
Oh you're serious?
:pan:
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

hobsini2

Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2025, 10:11:39 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 10:10:48 PMRacecars show that vehicles can be made survivable even in a crash at extremely high speed.

You wear the fireproof suit.
No no. He doesn't get to wear the fireproof suit. He's invincible. He doesn't need any safety.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 03, 2025, 03:27:19 PMUh, but we do try to prevent those. Oklahoma added cable barriers to miles and miles of freeway in the state, and ungated rail crossings are pretty uncommon on roads that have appreciable traffic (I'm aware that on rural backroads they still exist). Yes, coverage on both isn't at 100%, but that is more a matter of limited resources requiring prioritization than a belief that they are acceptable.

Remember, some states have a "Vision Zero" policy where they shoot for zero deaths. We all know that's unrealistic to actually achieve, but that's the goal they work toward.

And plenty of Mexican highways have paved shoulders, and most construction zones have warning signs and orange barrels and/or dividers (and ridiculously low speed zones), etc.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

LilianaUwU

Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 01:43:37 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 26, 2025, 11:25:27 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2025, 11:15:13 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 10:55:01 AMAircraft have thousands of ways they could break down mechanically. And yet they are the safest means of travel.

Do you know much more expensive passenger cars would be if all instances of "single point of failure" had to be eliminated, as they are for aircraft?

Or inspected prior to every use by a qualified technician.

That's doable, with the "technician" being the car's own electronic brain.
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
"Volcano with no fire... Not volcano... Just mountain."
—Mr. Thwomp

My pronouns are she/her. Also, I'm an admin on the AARoads Wiki.

Scott5114

Quote from: kphoger on March 03, 2025, 04:13:15 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 03, 2025, 03:27:19 PMUh, but we do try to prevent those. Oklahoma added cable barriers to miles and miles of freeway in the state, and ungated rail crossings are pretty uncommon on roads that have appreciable traffic (I'm aware that on rural backroads they still exist). Yes, coverage on both isn't at 100%, but that is more a matter of limited resources requiring prioritization than a belief that they are acceptable.

Remember, some states have a "Vision Zero" policy where they shoot for zero deaths. We all know that's unrealistic to actually achieve, but that's the goal they work toward.

And plenty of Mexican highways have paved shoulders, and most construction zones have warning signs and orange barrels and/or dividers (and ridiculously low speed zones), etc.

I see. So these shoulderless highways and work zones with no warning, etc. are exceptions rather than something considered normal? That wasn't clear from the initial posts on this tangent.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 03, 2025, 04:24:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 03, 2025, 04:13:15 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 03, 2025, 03:27:19 PMUh, but we do try to prevent those. Oklahoma added cable barriers to miles and miles of freeway in the state, and ungated rail crossings are pretty uncommon on roads that have appreciable traffic (I'm aware that on rural backroads they still exist). Yes, coverage on both isn't at 100%, but that is more a matter of limited resources requiring prioritization than a belief that they are acceptable.

Remember, some states have a "Vision Zero" policy where they shoot for zero deaths. We all know that's unrealistic to actually achieve, but that's the goal they work toward.

And plenty of Mexican highways have paved shoulders, and most construction zones have warning signs and orange barrels and/or dividers (and ridiculously low speed zones), etc.

I see. So these shoulderless highways and work zones with no warning, etc. are exceptions rather than something considered normal? That wasn't clear from the initial posts on this tangent.

I dunno, they all seem like the norm to me. 

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 03, 2025, 04:24:36 PMI see. So these shoulderless highways and work zones with no warning, etc. are exceptions rather than something considered normal? That wasn't clear from the initial posts on this tangent.

They are normal, and they are also not as common as a safer situation.

We have shoulderless four-lane highways in the US too.  They're not as common as ones with shoulders, but they're also normal.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

PColumbus73

Quote from: hobsini2 on March 03, 2025, 04:10:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2025, 10:11:39 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 10:10:48 PMRacecars show that vehicles can be made survivable even in a crash at extremely high speed.

You wear the fireproof suit.
No no. He doesn't get to wear the fireproof suit. He's invincible. He doesn't need any safety.

It's okay, with the Neuralink implant, the AI will modify DNA to make you more resistant to fires and all other negative effects of a 150 MPH crash.

It'll also summon a chain of 150 MPH ambulances.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 03, 2025, 06:04:35 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 03, 2025, 04:10:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2025, 10:11:39 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 10:10:48 PMRacecars show that vehicles can be made survivable even in a crash at extremely high speed.

You wear the fireproof suit.
No no. He doesn't get to wear the fireproof suit. He's invincible. He doesn't need any safety.

It's okay, with the Neuralink implant, the AI will modify DNA to make you more resistant to fires and all other negative effects of a 150 MPH crash.

It'll also summon a chain of 150 MPH helicopter ambulances with grappling hooks.


FIFY

GaryV

Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 03, 2025, 06:04:35 PMwith the Neuralink implant, the AI will modify DNA to make you more resistant to fires

And some people thought vaccines were bad. /s


hobsini2

K12, honest question for you. Do you really think that AI or a computer is infallible?
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

Scott5114

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 03, 2025, 06:08:59 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 03, 2025, 06:04:35 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 03, 2025, 04:10:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2025, 10:11:39 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 10:10:48 PMRacecars show that vehicles can be made survivable even in a crash at extremely high speed.

You wear the fireproof suit.
No no. He doesn't get to wear the fireproof suit. He's invincible. He doesn't need any safety.

It's okay, with the Neuralink implant, the AI will modify DNA to make you more resistant to fires and all other negative effects of a 150 MPH crash.

It'll also summon a chain of 150 MPH helicopter ambulances with graphing hooks.


FIFY

FIFY
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 27, 2025, 04:19:02 PMI am surprised that doesn't cause enough accidents that someone demands someone do something about it.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 27, 2025, 06:31:29 PMSo someone just plows into a broken-down truck, dies, and...it's just shit happens, nobody cares enough to stop it from happening again? I mean, I guess if that the sort of life everyone wants to live, but it's certainly not for me.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 27, 2025, 06:40:36 PMYou'd think the business interests would say something, then. Trucks ain't cheap...
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2025, 05:07:30 PMWhen that happens, everyone just accepts it and doesn't ask themselves if maybe lessons could be learned to avoid it happening again in the future?

This isn't a Mexico thing.  This is, I suppose with a few exceptions, a "the whole world except for the most industrialized nations" thing.

Over the last ten years, Mexico has roughly tripled its minimum wage, from about 5 USD to its current minimum wage of more than 13 USD;  it's even higher in the border zone.  I can see you wiggling with excitement from here.  But that's because you didn't realize that Mexico sets its minimum wage at a daily rate, not an hourly rate.  A work-week in Mexico is considered to be 48 hours, or six days at eight hours each, but the seventh day is basically like a weekly paid holiday.  This means that, if you adjust according to a 40-hour work week like what we have in the States, Mexico's minimum wage is currently about 2.36 USD per hour—after having nearly tripled in the last ten years.  I used to personally know an illegal immigrant, back in 2000, who was drawn to the US because people told him the minimum wage here was five bucks an hour instead of five bucks a day.

Despite Mexico's having a nominal GDP per capita that's roughly on par with the world as a whole, our most recent Vacation Bible School there was hosted by a family whose house is a single room and has an outhouse for a bathroom.  To fill your car up with ten gallons of gas in Mexico costs about 3½ days of minimum wage;  to fill your car up with ten gallons of gas in Nevada costs about 3½ hours of minimum wage.  Try to understand the struggle that most people in most countries have just to make ends meet.

So, then, I ask you:  when it comes to deficiencies in the highway network, who is it that you imagine would demand someone do something about it?  To whom would they make their demands?  What should they do about it?  Who would pay for it?

The people most affected by such deficiencies are those who have enough money to not only own a car, but also enough money to actually drive it from town to town.  That's not most people.  So it stands to reason that it would be the most affluent who would be making the demands.  To whom, but the government, by means of increased funding and stricter regulations?  Increased funding would mean more taxes, which would likely disproportionately affect the poor, in order to help the rich, which isn't the kind of thing that wins votes.

In places like Mexico, the sight of a broken-down vehicle is a much more common occurrence than here in the States.  There is no culture of preventive maintenance there.  I couldn't tell you how many drivers I've seen pull off the side of the highway in the middle of nowhere and put the hood up because the engine was overheating.  Every wide spot in the road village has a tire revulcanization shop.  Smaller trucking operations can barely afford to keep their trucks running;  stricter regulations on maintenance or load limits would disproportionately affect small business owners, in order to help the rich, which isn't the kind of thing that wins votes.  Larger trucking operations have trucks in better condition, but they still load them as heavy as possible in order to not lose money running extra trucks.

When the new toll road from Monterrey to Saltillo was built a decade and a half ago, the original plan was to prohibit trucks on it, to avoid clogging it up, giving passenger cars a hassle-free (safer?) drive.  The trucks would have to use the old free road.  But that didn't end up happening.  And it's completely understandable.  What investor in a new toll road would be OK with skipping out on all the toll revenue that truck traffic could provide?  What real benefit would doing so provide to drivers who are already completely used to dealing with trucks on every other highway they've ever driven?

Tying this all back into the conversation about the next generation of Interstate, and kernals12's ideas about dedicated super-fast freeways for platoons of sensor-laden problem-free electric smart cars...  This sort of thing would only benefit the wealthy, those who could afford such a hugely expensive vehicle and keep up on the repairs to satisfaction.  And who would fund the project?  Taxpayers, most of whom would have no use for it?  Private investors, who would surely prefer all the toll revenue possible—which would surely include older, dumber, less well-maintained, normal vehicles?  It would be a huge waste of money, likely funded in large part by those who don't have much money to spare and would reap little to no benefit from it once it was completed.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Max Rockatansky

#121
Quote from: kphoger on March 03, 2025, 09:23:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 27, 2025, 04:19:02 PMI am surprised that doesn't cause enough accidents that someone demands someone do something about it.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 27, 2025, 06:31:29 PMSo someone just plows into a broken-down truck, dies, and...it's just shit happens, nobody cares enough to stop it from happening again? I mean, I guess if that the sort of life everyone wants to live, but it's certainly not for me.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 27, 2025, 06:40:36 PMYou'd think the business interests would say something, then. Trucks ain't cheap...
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2025, 05:07:30 PMWhen that happens, everyone just accepts it and doesn't ask themselves if maybe lessons could be learned to avoid it happening again in the future?

This isn't a Mexico thing.  This is, I suppose with a few exceptions, a "the whole world except for the most industrialized nations" thing.

Over the last ten years, Mexico has roughly tripled its minimum wage, from about 5 USD to its current minimum wage of more than 13 USD;  it's even higher in the border zone.  I can see you wiggling with excitement from here.  But that's because you didn't realize that Mexico sets its minimum wage at a daily rate, not an hourly rate.  A work-week in Mexico is considered to be 48 hours, or six days at eight hours each, but the seventh day is basically like a weekly paid holiday.  This means that, if you adjust according to a 40-hour work week like what we have in the States, Mexico's minimum wage is currently about 2.36 USD per hour—after having nearly tripled in the last ten years.  I used to personally know an illegal immigrant, back in 2000, who was drawn to the US because people told him the minimum wage here was five bucks an hour instead of five bucks a day.

Despite Mexico's having a nominal GDP per capita that's roughly on par with the world as a whole, our most recent Vacation Bible School there was hosted by a family whose house is a single room and has an outhouse for a bathroom.  To fill your car up with ten gallons of gas in Mexico costs about 3½ days of minimum wage;  to fill your car up with ten gallons of gas in Nevada costs about 3½ hours of minimum wage.  Try to understand the struggle that most people in most countries have just to make ends meet.

So, then, I ask you:  when it comes to deficiencies in the highway network, who is it that you imagine would demand someone do something about it?  To whom would they make their demands?  What should they do about it?  Who would pay for it?

The people most affected by such deficiencies are those who have enough money to not only own a car, but also enough money to actually drive it from town to town.  That's not most people.  So it stands to reason that it would be the most affluent who would be making the demands.  To whom, but the government, by means of increased funding and stricter regulations?  Increased funding would mean more taxes, which would likely disproportionately affect the poor, in order to help the rich, which isn't the kind of thing that wins votes.

In places like Mexico, the sight of a broken-down vehicle is a much more common occurrence than here in the States.  There is no culture of preventive maintenance there.  I couldn't tell you how many drivers I've seen pull off the side of the highway in the middle of nowhere and put the hood up because the engine was overheating.  Every wide spot in the road village has a tire revulcanization shop.  Smaller trucking operations can barely afford to keep their trucks running;  stricter regulations on maintenance or load limits would disproportionately affect small business owners, in order to help the rich, which isn't the kind of thing that wins votes.  Larger trucking operations have trucks in better condition, but they still load them as heavy as possible in order to not lose money running extra trucks.

When the new toll road from Monterrey to Saltillo was built a decade and a half ago, the original plan was to prohibit trucks on it, to avoid clogging it up, giving passenger cars a hassle-free (safer?) drive.  The trucks would have to use the old free road.  But that didn't end up happening.  And it's completely understandable.  What investor in a new toll road would be OK with skipping out on all the toll revenue that truck traffic could provide?  What real benefit would doing so provide to drivers who are already completely used to dealing with trucks on every other highway they've ever driven?

Tying this all back into the conversation about the next generation of Interstate, and kernals12's ideas about dedicated super-fast freeways for platoons of sensor-laden problem-free electric smart cars...  This sort of thing would only benefit the wealthy, those who could afford such a hugely expensive vehicle and keep up on the repairs to satisfaction.  And who would fund the project?  Taxpayers, most of whom would have no use for it?  Private investors, who would surely prefer all the toll revenue possible—which would surely include older, dumber, less well-maintained, normal vehicles?  It would be a huge waste of money, likely funded in large part by those who don't have much money to spare and would reap little to no benefit from it once it was completed.

I forget which thread it was, but I recall looking up the average annual salary once in Jalisco.  At the time the average income was something around 70-75K Pesos for your average Jalisco citizen.  At the current USD exahnge rate that is just plain chump change if you look at how we live in our country.  Down in Mexico most people I know can survive on that income for numerous reasons:

-  Many items are way less expensive than in the U.S.  Food and medicine immediately spring to mind but there is many more. 
-  Almost everyone in the family works and provides income.  Imagine how much people would lose their shit over a child under 10 working at family store in the United States?
-  Property tax is nominal by U.S. standards.  Most homes are vastly more affordable than the U.S. because there isn't much in the way of standards.  That and a great many families have owned their home for generations.  When I asked for an estimate to add a room on the house the answer I got was about $12,000 Pesos.  You're basically open to the environment so things like HVAC aren't a thing. 
-  Most towns and cities are small geographically.  The town I visit is only 2.3 square miles and has a population of about 20,000 people.  Unless you're leaving town there isn't much reason for a healthy person to drive.  Bus service to Guadalajara is also pretty good and regular. 
-  Utilities and services are more affordable.  I just paid $3,000 Pesos for the annual internet service bill my wife's aunt's house. 
-  Consider a basic new car costs over $200,000 Pesos.  That is just a plain luxury most cannot afford.  Older cars stay on the road pretty much as long as they will keep running.  Considering how bad our own family fleet is I'll probably seriously considering paying whatever it takes to move my Corolla down to Jalisco when it is time for a new car. 

Also, considering how much minimum wage is here in California most of the Ag guys who come up from Mexico make bank (relatively speaking) while they are here.  Most workers I know in Firebaugh stay with family while here or in meager worker accommodations. 

formulanone

Quote from: PColumbus73 on March 03, 2025, 06:04:35 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 03, 2025, 04:10:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2025, 10:11:39 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 10:10:48 PMRacecars show that vehicles can be made survivable even in a crash at extremely high speed.

You wear the fireproof suit.
No no. He doesn't get to wear the fireproof suit. He's invincible. He doesn't need any safety.

It's okay, with the Neuralink implant, the AI will modify DNA to make you more resistant to fires and all other negative effects of a 150 MPH crash.

It'll also summon a chain of 150 MPH ambulances.

With the implant, the more likely scenario is that we all drive around in 6000 pound vehicles which actually max out at 35 miles an hour so we can entertain ourselves with ad-laden videos and curated newspinions while moving to our next on-the-grid adventure.

This way every lobbying power gets their input in the name of "freedom".

SEWIGuy

Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 10:55:01 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 26, 2025, 07:51:23 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 25, 2025, 06:56:22 PMRunflat or airless tires

What about the other several hundred ways a vehicle can break down mechanically?  Or have IT issues involving the systems that would make this kind of thing operate...


Aircraft have thousands of ways they could break down mechanically. And yet they are the safest means of travel.


Travel by car usually doesn't cause death or injury when it "breaks down mechanically." Travel by airplane often does.

PColumbus73

Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 04, 2025, 09:41:50 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 26, 2025, 10:55:01 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 26, 2025, 07:51:23 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 25, 2025, 06:56:22 PMRunflat or airless tires

What about the other several hundred ways a vehicle can break down mechanically?  Or have IT issues involving the systems that would make this kind of thing operate...


Aircraft have thousands of ways they could break down mechanically. And yet they are the safest means of travel.


Travel by car usually doesn't cause death or injury when it "breaks down mechanically." Travel by airplane often does.

...also mechanical issues would result the aircraft to declare an emergency and land as soon as possible.



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