"Outdated" Traffic Laws That Could Be Tweaked...

[pderocco]

The problem with tiny roundabouts is that they eliminate the ability for two opposite vehicles to turn left without crossing each other's paths twice, thus requiring that they synchronize their turns.

Wouldn't that only be the case at larger intersections? Many smaller intersections like this one only have the room for a small number of synchronous turns, regardless of the island.

I just mean that if there's no island, two opposing cars can turn left, even if one turns a little before the other. This is what makes SPUIs efficient. If there's a roundabout, they have to do-si-do through the intersection.

[PColumbus73]

Has anywhere in the US tried to introduce 'priority road' signs?

Not a sign, but a flashing yellow ball at an intersection means you have priority, since the cross street has a flashing red.

I don't think the beacons are quite the same thing. They're more for emphasis rather than assigning priority.

[Rothman]

Has anywhere in the US tried to introduce 'priority road' signs?

Not a sign, but a flashing yellow ball at an intersection means you have priority, since the cross street has a flashing red.

I don't think the beacons are quite the same thing. They're more for emphasis rather than assigning priority.

Stopping traffic on the red flashing side would definitely be assigning priority.

[PColumbus73]

Has anywhere in the US tried to introduce 'priority road' signs?

Not a sign, but a flashing yellow ball at an intersection means you have priority, since the cross street has a flashing red.

I don't think the beacons are quite the same thing. They're more for emphasis rather than assigning priority.

Stopping traffic on the red flashing side would definitely be assigning priority.

Okay, but you're not going to see a red/yellow beacon at signalized intersections the same way you see priority signs in Europe.

[DRMan]

Well, I for one am glad to live in a city where I can drive through many neighborhoods without hitting at stop sign every couple of blocks.

I'm kinda surprised many cities haven't considered going with these as a substitute for stop signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/VQ7Udjw1Bsitc49ZA

If required, they can be mountable for larger vehicles and trucks (or the fire brigade)

Or you can be like Tucson and use four-way stops and mini roundabouts at the same intersection: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pSHVjBa7Wczma1Zo7

[kphoger]

I'm kinda surprised many cities haven't considered going with these as a substitute for stop signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/VQ7Udjw1Bsitc49ZA

I'm 100% sure that a large percentage of drivers would simply turn left in front of that central island.  Heck, I probably would sometimes.

[kphoger]

I don't think the beacons are quite the same thing. They're more for emphasis rather than assigning priority.

Technically true but, as it relates to the conversation, they are functionally the same.  The issue raised is that you can't tell by your own signage if a side street has a stop/yield sign or if it's an uncontrolled intersection.  Because four-way flashing yellow beacons are not allowed (except in the movie Cars), seeing one immediately lets you know that the cross-street has a stop sign.

[7/8]

The problem with replacing stop signs with yield signs is that we'd have to invent the new concept of an all-way yield.

Nope.  We already have that concept.  It's called an uncontrolled intersection.  I think about 90% of all residential intersections here in Wichita are uncontrolled, meaning they are functionally all-way yield.  I personally live between two such intersections.

At least they should throw up some YIELD signs on the lesser-used cross-street(s) to legally denote which street has the right of way.

Why?  It's already legally denoted in the laws of the state.

A sign for an uncontrolled intersection could be nice regardless of what it is (within reason lmao). Better than nothing, I suppose.

For sure, this is what sketches me out about uncontrolled intersections, as someone who's only seen a few in my life. If I come up to an intersection and don't see any sign or light, I'm going to assume I have right-of-way and the side street must have a stop sign (not saying that's right, but considering this is always the case where I'm from...).

I agree with "thenetwork" that it'd be best just to choose one street as the major street and put yields for the side street.

[kphoger]

For sure, this is what sketches me out about uncontrolled intersections, as someone who's only seen a few in my life. If I come up to an intersection and don't see any sign or light, I'm going to assume I have right-of-way and the side street must have a stop sign (not saying that's right, but considering this is always the case where I'm from...).

Meanwhile, having grown up and learned to drive in a town with plenty of uncontrolled intersections, and having never lived in a state that eschews them, I am not going to assume I have the right of way just because I don't see a sign or light.  That's not how I was taught to drive.

I agree with "thenetwork" that it'd be best just to choose one street as the major street and put yields for the side street.

Yields, maybe.  But I am definitely not in favor of adding a whole bunch of stops to intersections where it's currently unnecessary to stop.

[7/8]

Meanwhile, having grown up and learned to drive in a town with plenty of uncontrolled intersections, and having never lived in a state that eschews them, I am not going to assume I have the right of way just because I don't see a sign or light.  That's not how I was taught to drive.

Which is good for sure, but I think places should keep in mind the potential danger with visitors who don't expect them (is it worth saving the cost of a couple yield signs?)

I agree with "thenetwork" that it'd be best just to choose one street as the major street and put yields for the side street.

Yields, maybe.  But I am definitely not in favor of adding a whole bunch of stops to intersections where it's currently unnecessary to stop.

I agree, I wish the majority of stop signs were replaced with yield signs. They're a crutch of poorly-done traffic calming.

[kphoger]

Which is good for sure, but I think places should keep in mind the potential danger with visitors who don't expect them (is it worth saving the cost of a couple yield signs?)

We're talking about more than just a couple of yield signs.

For example, here in Wichita:

City officials said they didn't know exactly how many uncontrolled intersections there are in Wichita, but said it estimated only 10% of all intersections have a stop sign.

And as for the potential danger:

The City of Wichita told FactFinder it recently did a study of Wichita intersections with stop signs and compared them to intersections without them. It said it found more crashes happened at intersections with stop signs compared to ones without. The study also found the likelihood of being involved in a crash is six times higher at an intersection with a stop sign.

[7/8]

The City of Wichita told FactFinder it recently did a study of Wichita intersections with stop signs and compared them to intersections without them. It said it found more crashes happened at intersections with stop signs compared to ones without. The study also found the likelihood of being involved in a crash is six times higher at an intersection with a stop sign.

That's wild, it's hard for me to comprehend, but I guess it's working for Wichita so fair enough! The thought of having to scan every intersection for side street signage (to determine right-of-way) seems exhausting, but I guess you get used to it?

[kphoger]

The thought of having to scan every intersection for side street signage (to determine right-of-way) seems exhausting, but I guess you get used to it?

I'm sure a lot of those intersections are T-intersections, though.

[kphoger]

For what it's worth, here is the neighborhood I live in.  No intersection between Orme and Lincoln, Edgemoor and Woodlawn, has a stop or yield sign of any sort.

I witnessed one accident at Christine and Gilbert last year (I was grilling in the driveway and heard the crash).  Neither driver had any idea that uncontrolled intersections even existed.  One of them was a young lady from out of state who was here for an internship.  But the other was a middle-aged lady who, along with her boyfriend, are from Wichita.  That's the only accident at an uncontrolled intersection I've ever witnessed.  And, for that particular intersection, it's the only one in the 14½ years we've lived in this house.

It blows me away that people can drive around this city thinking that they have the right of way at every such intersection!

But yes, our kids go from our house near that intersection over to the Fabrique Park playground and back all the time, passing through eight uncontrolled intersections along the way.  No big deal.

[thenetwork]

Here's another example where YIELD signs should replace STOP Signs:

I travel through a lot of smaller neighborhoods and subdivisions in my job.
So you approach a "T" intersection, or an "L" intersection where one street ends, and traffic has only one direction they can turn to as the other options have no street, or just a short-stubbed Dead End (which may have been designed for a future street extension).

In either event, the municipality still puts a STOP sign in one or both directions despite there being a .0000001% chance of a vehicle coming from the road-less direction(s).

Why the hell is a STOP sign warranted when a YIELD sign is still more than enough for the intersection and eliminates a complete stop that makes no sense???

[ElishaGOtis]

I don't think the beacons are quite the same thing. They're more for emphasis rather than assigning priority.

Technically true but, as it relates to the conversation, they are functionally the same.  The issue raised is that you can't tell by your own signage if a side street has a stop/yield sign or if it's an uncontrolled intersection.  Because four-way flashing yellow beacons are not allowed (except in the movie Cars), seeing one immediately lets you know that the cross-street has a stop sign.

A similar concern is resulting in the removal of these overhead flashing beacons at certain intersections in FL. Apparently, those on the minor approach with the flashing red were thinking it was a 4-way stop. This occurred even with "cross traffic does not stop" plates... many of these are being replaced with ICWS / "Vehicles Entering Highway" signs as a result.

[freebrickproductions]

I don't think the beacons are quite the same thing. They're more for emphasis rather than assigning priority.

Technically true but, as it relates to the conversation, they are functionally the same.  The issue raised is that you can't tell by your own signage if a side street has a stop/yield sign or if it's an uncontrolled intersection.  Because four-way flashing yellow beacons are not allowed (except in the movie Cars), seeing one immediately lets you know that the cross-street has a stop sign.

A similar concern is resulting in the removal of these overhead flashing beacons at certain intersections in FL. Apparently, those on the minor approach with the flashing red were thinking it was a 4-way stop. This occurred even with "cross traffic does not stop" plates... many of these are being replaced with ICWS / "Vehicles Entering Highway" signs as a result.

It appears that, at some point in the past, at least a few intersections only had flashing yellow beacons for the main road. The side road just had stop sign(s). I'm aware of a surviving example in Tuscumbia:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.718675,-87.7261777,3a,75y,79.72h,95.79t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sO5fu-vNnBPnHuObLlGr_Uw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-5.788950179478306%26panoid%3DO5fu-vNnBPnHuObLlGr_Uw%26yaw%3D79.71530104543083!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDMxMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[kphoger]

A similar concern is resulting in the removal of these overhead flashing beacons at certain intersections in FL. Apparently, those on the minor approach with the flashing red were thinking it was a 4-way stop. This occurred even with "cross traffic does not stop" plates... many of these are being replaced with ICWS / "Vehicles Entering Highway" signs as a result.

Yes, I've had that problem at a stoplight in off-peak flashing mode:  My street had a flashing red light, but I had no idea if the cross-street (a) also had a flashing red light or (b) had a flashing yellow light.  So I couldn't tell if I needed to yield to approaching cross-traffic or not.

[PColumbus73]

This past Sunday, I came across a dark traffic light with two cops sitting on either side of the intersection, not directing traffic, just there I guess. Traffic on the main road were proceeding straight through, despite that you're supposed to treat a dark signal as an all-way stop.

If that rule is regularly not followed or enforced, how does the rule get revised?

[kphoger]

This past Sunday, I came across a dark traffic light with two cops sitting on either side of the intersection, not directing traffic, just there I guess. Traffic on the main road were proceeding straight through, despite that you're supposed to treat a dark signal as an all-way stop.

Are you sure the police hadn't unfolded STOP signs on one of the streets?

[kalvado]

This past Sunday, I came across a dark traffic light with two cops sitting on either side of the intersection, not directing traffic, just there I guess. Traffic on the main road were proceeding straight through, despite that you're supposed to treat a dark signal as an all-way stop.

Are you sure the police hadn't unfolded STOP signs on one of the streets?

doesn't really matter - if I see a dark traffic light, looking for stop signs on a cross street requires at least slowing down. Is there any sign in MUTCD to say "proceed without a stop"?
Logically, intersection on a major road with a small side may easily choke if it were to go to all-way stop. I don't know how to formalize that, though.

[thenetwork]

This past Sunday, I came across a dark traffic light with two cops sitting on either side of the intersection, not directing traffic, just there I guess. Traffic on the main road were proceeding straight through, despite that you're supposed to treat a dark signal as an all-way stop.

Are you sure the police hadn't unfolded STOP signs on one of the streets?

doesn't really matter - if I see a dark traffic light, looking for stop signs on a cross street requires at least slowing down. Is there any sign in MUTCD to say "proceed without a stop"?
Logically, intersection on a major road with a small side may easily choke if it were to go to all-way stop. I don't know how to formalize that, though.

What I have seen a lot over the last 10 years or so is that if a signaled intersection is in all-way flash mode, drivers tend to come to a full stop, even if it is a full flashing YELLOW on one street.

I think is because less newer traffic lights don't go into flash mode on nights and weekends as much as they used to, so us old timers perceive signals that are flashing yellow to be treated  as "proceed with caution", but NOT as a full fledged, all-way stop as if the intersection was an all-way flashing RED or if the power was completely out.

[jeffandnicole]

This past Sunday, I came across a dark traffic light with two cops sitting on either side of the intersection, not directing traffic, just there I guess. Traffic on the main road were proceeding straight through, despite that you're supposed to treat a dark signal as an all-way stop.

Are you sure the police hadn't unfolded STOP signs on one of the streets?

doesn't really matter - if I see a dark traffic light, looking for stop signs on a cross street requires at least slowing down. Is there any sign in MUTCD to say "proceed without a stop"?
Logically, intersection on a major road with a small side may easily choke if it were to go to all-way stop. I don't know how to formalize that, though.

What I have seen a lot over the last 10 years or so is that if a signaled intersection is in all-way flash mode, drivers tend to come to a full stop, even if it is a full flashing YELLOW on one street.

This I've seen also.  I've even been honked at for going thru the yellow.  Although this occurs as less-heavily traveled intersections where there's no clear roadway that normally has the primary traffic flow.

In the other situation where the light is out completely and there's a clear primary roadway, usually traffic defaults to that road just going thru.  Of course, there are those that will insist on stopping...which ironically is how traffic chaos ensues.

[thenetwork]

This past Sunday, I came across a dark traffic light with two cops sitting on either side of the intersection, not directing traffic, just there I guess. Traffic on the main road were proceeding straight through, despite that you're supposed to treat a dark signal as an all-way stop.

Are you sure the police hadn't unfolded STOP signs on one of the streets?

doesn't really matter - if I see a dark traffic light, looking for stop signs on a cross street requires at least slowing down. Is there any sign in MUTCD to say "proceed without a stop"?
Logically, intersection on a major road with a small side may easily choke if it were to go to all-way stop. I don't know how to formalize that, though.

What I have seen a lot over the last 10 years or so is that if a signaled intersection is in all-way flash mode, drivers tend to come to a full stop, even if it is a full flashing YELLOW on one street.

This I've seen also.  I've even been honked at for going thru the yellow.  Although this occurs as less-heavily traveled intersections where there's no clear roadway that normally has the primary traffic flow.

In the other situation where the light is out completely and there's a clear primary roadway, usually traffic defaults to that road just going thru.  Of course, there are those that will insist on stopping...which ironically is how traffic chaos ensues.

It doesn't help when a traffic report says an intersection with flashing yellow lights on the main thoroughfare says the light is "malfunctioning" and "should be treated as a Four Way Stop".