RIP Pope Francis

[SEWIGuy]

Are you an expert on UK church going habits?

I've not yet found someone on the ground in the UK church who has been surprised by these figures. They might be surprised by the growth that is happening, but the figures ring true to those with their ears to the ground. It surprised society - hence why the Bible Society decided to publish the report of the poll data under the title 'quiet revival' - 50% more people going to church regularly is noticeable. But when you start from a small percentage, one-and-a-half times that small percentage is still a small percentage and you don't notice it.

I was speaking specifically about the United States.

[SEWIGuy]

Not saying you're wrong, but I'd be shocked if it were that high.

Yeah that doesn't sound remotely accurate.

I've not yet found someone on the ground in the UK church who has been surprised by these figures. They might be surprised by the growth that is happening, but the figures ring true to those with their ears to the ground. It surprised society ...

To chime in here some more, still from an American perspective...

First of all, the constant narrative since my teenage years has been that religion has been on an unstoppable downhill trajectory.  This trajectory and narrative can now be measured in decades.  And I don't mean 'narrative' in a disparaging sense, because the truth of it has been apparent in both measurable and intangible ways to people within the Church just as much as to those outside it.  It's something we lament, consider to be unfortunate, but have in large part come to accept and adapt to.  Therefore, if members of secular society are surprised by the growth that is happening, believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as surprised.  And if you are skeptical about the numbers, then believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as skeptical (well, maybe not quite, but close).

Secondly, even if we aren't seeing the same numbers here in the US as in the UK, that doesn't mean there isn't something going on here too.  There has been a noticeable and measurable trend within Christianity, for example, of people switching from less traditional churches and denominations to more traditional ones—specifically people from non-liturgical Baptist-type churches being drawn to the history and the complexity of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.  This suggests that, even among already-religious Christians, there is an appetite for more formality in spiritual things, not less.  It might not be so surprising, then, if there is a parallel trend happening among the non-religious population.

Thirdly, speaking of the non-religious, before this study was released I had already been surprised by some statistics coming out about religion and spirituality in the US.  In fact, it was just about four weeks ago that I was having a PM conversation with another forum member about it.  Looking back through my message history...  Among respondents to a 2023 survey by Pew Research, 83% believed that people have a spirit or a soul, 81% believe in the supernatural, 74% believe that science cannot explain everything, and 71% believe in Heaven.  So, to me at least, it was already becoming clear that people weren't entirely satisfied with materialism.

And lastly, as our society has become less and less interpersonal over the last few decades, and especially with the recent ubiquity of one's nose being buried in a smartphone, my own suspicion is that the communal aspect of organized religion serves to fill a void in some young people's lives.  Instagram and Zoom simply don't bring people together in the same way as does physically participating in something together.  In decades past, that need may have been fulfilled by bowling leagues or bridge clubs or whatever, and maybe these days church attendance is increasingly fulfilling that need in a similar way.

Right. This is cool and all, but this isn't evidence for "strong" growth.

[english si]

Therefore, if members of secular society are surprised by the growth that is happening, believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as surprised.  And if you are skeptical about the numbers, then believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as skeptical (well, maybe not quite, but close).

My point about observant people in the church not being surprised by the numbers (which I guess also means not being skeptical about them) is not that they aren't surprised by the numbers and the growth after decades of decline narrative. It's that the numbers are merely formalising what they could see going on.

And then there's the different viewpoints. A societal change from 8% to 12% is a lot less noticeable than a 150% growth within. Society is much less likely to notice what's a small change within it, than those within the growing group.

I dunno. I think there actually might be more pressure nowadays where everyone seemingly shares their entire lives on social media.

Oversharing on social media, especially among the young, has been a thing for nearly all of those 18-24 year olds' lives now - it's not something brand new anymore and if it created a change, it would have done so in previous surveys, rather than this one.

[LilianaUwU]

Speaking of oversharing, and it's only somewhat related to the Pope dying: religion has too much of a place in our society in the year of our Lord 2025 (and saying that is also a religious thing). I don't think holidays like Easter, Thanksgiving should paralyze the entire country because of one religion's beliefs.

[hotdogPi]

Since when is Thanksgiving (in either country) a religious holiday?

[LilianaUwU]

Since when is Thanksgiving (in either country) a religious holiday?

It's a pagan holiday, isn't it?

[SEWIGuy]

Since when is Thanksgiving (in either country) a religious holiday?

It's a pagan holiday, isn't it?

No. It's just a national holiday for giving thanks.

Regardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.

[LilianaUwU]

Regardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.

Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).

[hotdogPi]

Good Friday had normal service here, and the only reason Easter Monday didn't is because it was Patriots' Day in Massachusetts (which doesn't coincide every year).

[Max Rockatansky]

Regardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.

Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).

It wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter.  I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.

[SEWIGuy]

Regardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.

Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).

Well, to be fair, Easter Monday isn't really a thing in the United States, but are stores closing really paralyzing? It felt to me that most of society fuctioned fairly well. We usually go get ice cream on Sunday nights at our favorite local place, but we went Saturday instead.

And I noticed no issues on Good Friday.

[SEWIGuy]

Regardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.

Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).

It wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter.  I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.

Like a lot of things these days, I think its mostly due to staff shortages. Not many want to work, and the volume isn't that great, so they just shut down instead.

[Max Rockatansky]

Regardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.

Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).

It wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter.  I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.

Like a lot of things these days, I think its mostly due to staff shortages. Not many want to work, and the volume isn't that great, so they just shut down instead.

Hell, I haven't staffed since before COVID times.  Just a waste of payroll to have people hanging out on camera at a super slow Big Box store.  I haven't kept my pulse on what is going on in the real world but they seem to be experiencing a volume drop also.

[SEWIGuy]

Regardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.

Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).

It wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter.  I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.

Like a lot of things these days, I think its mostly due to staff shortages. Not many want to work, and the volume isn't that great, so they just shut down instead.

Hell, I haven't staffed since before COVID times.  Just a waste of payroll to have people hanging out on camera at a super slow Big Box store.  I haven't kept my pulse on what is going on in the real world but they seem to be experiencing a volume drop also.

I know a number of grocery stores that used to be 24/7 before COVID, now shut down at night. I think stores have realized that if people really want something, they can shop online and pick it up tomorrow.

[CoreySamson]

Well, if stores are closed for a religious holiday, if anything it gives people who don't celebrate a day to take off work and rest. I don't think I (as a Christian) would complain if I were working in India and had to take off work for Holi, even if I didn't care at all about the holiday. Rest is good for everyone.

[Max Rockatansky]

Regardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.

Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).

It wasn't that long ago that a lot of major retail stores were closed on Easter.  I'm kind of surprised there has been a retreat by some back towards being closed again.

Like a lot of things these days, I think its mostly due to staff shortages. Not many want to work, and the volume isn't that great, so they just shut down instead.

Hell, I haven't staffed since before COVID times.  Just a waste of payroll to have people hanging out on camera at a super slow Big Box store.  I haven't kept my pulse on what is going on in the real world but they seem to be experiencing a volume drop also.

I know a number of grocery stores that used to be 24/7 before COVID, now shut down at night. I think stores have realized that if people really want something, they can shop online and pick it up tomorrow.

A lot of the overnight stuff never made much sense to me.  Every store that I've had a hand in that did it lost money during overnight hours, even from the get go.  The payroll costs never made sense with the low customer head counts.

[Rothman]

Not saying you're wrong, but I'd be shocked if it were that high.

Yeah that doesn't sound remotely accurate.

I've not yet found someone on the ground in the UK church who has been surprised by these figures. They might be surprised by the growth that is happening, but the figures ring true to those with their ears to the ground. It surprised society ...

To chime in here some more, still from an American perspective...

First of all, the constant narrative since my teenage years has been that religion has been on an unstoppable downhill trajectory.  This trajectory and narrative can now be measured in decades.  And I don't mean 'narrative' in a disparaging sense, because the truth of it has been apparent in both measurable and intangible ways to people within the Church just as much as to those outside it.  It's something we lament, consider to be unfortunate, but have in large part come to accept and adapt to.  Therefore, if members of secular society are surprised by the growth that is happening, believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as surprised.  And if you are skeptical about the numbers, then believe me when I say that people inside the Church are just as skeptical (well, maybe not quite, but close).

Secondly, even if we aren't seeing the same numbers here in the US as in the UK, that doesn't mean there isn't something going on here too.  There has been a noticeable and measurable trend within Christianity, for example, of people switching from less traditional churches and denominations to more traditional ones—specifically people from non-liturgical Baptist-type churches being drawn to the history and the complexity of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.  This suggests that, even among already-religious Christians, there is an appetite for more formality in spiritual things, not less.  It might not be so surprising, then, if there is a parallel trend happening among the non-religious population.

Thirdly, speaking of the non-religious, before this study was released I had already been surprised by some statistics coming out about religion and spirituality in the US.  In fact, it was just about four weeks ago that I was having a PM conversation with another forum member about it.  Looking back through my message history...  Among respondents to a 2023 survey by Pew Research, 83% believed that people have a spirit or a soul, 81% believe in the supernatural, 74% believe that science cannot explain everything, and 71% believe in Heaven.  So, to me at least, it was already becoming clear that people weren't entirely satisfied with materialism.

And lastly, as our society has become less and less interpersonal over the last few decades, and especially with the recent ubiquity of one's nose being buried in a smartphone, my own suspicion is that the communal aspect of organized religion serves to fill a void in some young people's lives.  Instagram and Zoom simply don't bring people together in the same way as does physically participating in something together.  In decades past, that need may have been fulfilled by bowling leagues or bridge clubs or whatever, and maybe these days church attendance is increasingly fulfilling that need in a similar way.

This all seems like opinion based upon questionable data -- sure, if you believe the single study, then the rest follows.  As a very steady churchgoer/Christian myself that has at least kept an eye out on more scholarly studies on religion participation in the U.S. over the decades, I find this particular study to be an outlier.  Also very much raise my eyebrow at the idea of "traditional" churches experiencing a net gain due to younger generations leaving non-traditional ones -- whatever that means, really.  There are a gazillion Christian sects in this country.

At least for my own religion, my church stopped reporting statistics in its churchwide conferences a few years ago.  Personally suspect that's because our membership records are bloated with those that are "inactive" of which quite a proportion probably don't even affiliate with it any longer.  Furthermore, growth in my religion is now happening abroad rather than within the U.S., where it's treading water and kept up more by kids being brought up in the religion rather than people converting to it.  Still, sure, my own Christian religion's an outlier in of itself in a way.

I also don't find the Pew's survey results indicating a rejection of materialism.  Plenty of wishy-washy people that claim some modicum of spirituality out there and I don't think I've met a scientist yet that claims science has the current ability to explain everything.

Time will tell.  Also thinking of a friend of mine who was a treasurer at an Episcopalian church in Maryland that was on the ropes.  The "board" or whatever was spending away, determined that "God would provide."  Turned out the King Family came in with a big donation to save the place.  Perhaps God did, then.

[elsmere241]

At least for my own religion, my church stopped reporting statistics in its churchwide conferences a few years ago.  Personally suspect that's because our membership records are bloated with those that are "inactive" of which quite a proportion probably don't even affiliate with it any longer.  Furthermore, growth in my religion is now happening abroad rather than within the U.S., where it's treading water and kept up more by kids being brought up in the religion rather than people converting to it.  Still, sure, my own Christian religion's an outlier in of itself in a way.

The statistics are reported, they just aren't read aloud in a general Conference session.  See https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/2024-statistical-report

[hotdogPi]

Men aged under 30 (exactly the demographic mentioned earlier) swung hard toward Trump in 2024 compared to 2020. I can believe it.

[jeffandnicole]

Regardless I don't think Easter "paralyzed" anything.

Tell that to all the stores that are closed. It's also the perfect excuse for transportation authorities to give dogshit service (which is especially true of Good Friday and Easter Monday).

Lowes was closed; Home Depot open.  Shoprite was closed; Acme was Open.  Local convenience store where I buy milk was closed.  Local convenience store where I buy lottery tickets for my mother-in-law was open. Wawa was open.  Some restaurants; both fast food, and non-fast food, was open.

Overall, there was probably more stores closed than open. Maybe I would need to travel slightly further than normal, or go to a store I normally don't go to.  But the region wasn't paralyzed; no one was stuck on the road running out of gas, and no one was starving because they couldn't get anything to eat.

If you want to compare it to a day where there's a snowstorm, more businesses were open on Easter than snowstorm days...when a region is truly paralyzed until roads can be plowed and opened.

[Rothman]

At least for my own religion, my church stopped reporting statistics in its churchwide conferences a few years ago.  Personally suspect that's because our membership records are bloated with those that are "inactive" of which quite a proportion probably don't even affiliate with it any longer.  Furthermore, growth in my religion is now happening abroad rather than within the U.S., where it's treading water and kept up more by kids being brought up in the religion rather than people converting to it.  Still, sure, my own Christian religion's an outlier in of itself in a way.

The statistics are reported, they just aren't read aloud in a general Conference session.  See https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/2024-statistical-report

Well, sure, they're being kept.  But, there seem to be obvious reasons why they're not announced in General Conference any longer.

[Rothman]

Men aged under 30 (exactly the demographic mentioned earlier) swung hard toward Trump in 2024 compared to 2020. I can believe it.

I think this had to do with nihilism more than religiosity.

[Scott5114]

I just wrote it off as Vegas being Vegas. It wasn't until I left the casino that I realized it was Easter.

I think it's hilarious that Easter was only your second thought.  If he'd had a basket of eggs, then I'm sure you'd have figured it out immediately.

Why.  It didn't take long afterwards to hope that it was Easter. Plus who closes on a non federal holiday on a Sunday these days.  Hell airlines fly more flights on Christmas Day ( a holiday that's not only religious but secular as well) despite for years people made travel plans before Christmas Day as the purpose of celebrating Christmas is to spend a whole quiet day with family.  Not traveling to get there and spend only part of a holiday celebrating.

I worked in the hospitality industry and we had no holidays unless your were in management.  When you suggested religious holidays off you would be laughed at.  All hands work Christmas and Easter and that was it!

As far as going out of business Whataburger, a very busy restaurant, closed in Central Florida at a moments notice leaving stores empty only for you to notice that they're closed for good.

To me closing for Easter is very strange other than Chick Fil A, and they make known that they celebrate Sunday.  Of course many people have publicly chastised them for closing Sundays.

Plus some on here even admitted they forgot it's Easter as the GP don't make important anymore  like they used to.  That's the same reason why the hospitality industry don't close on Easter and if they realize it's Easter it's to make extra money like Mothers Day.

What does any of this have to do with a man in a bunny suit in the Tropicana casino in Las Vegas, Nevada in April 2024?

[Scott5114]

Well, if stores are closed for a religious holiday, if anything it gives people who don't celebrate a day to take off work and rest. I don't think I (as a Christian) would complain if I were working in India and had to take off work for Holi, even if I didn't care at all about the holiday. Rest is good for everyone.

Day off of work for resting...good.
Day that you don't get paid when you otherwise would...bad.

[SEWIGuy]

Men aged under 30 (exactly the demographic mentioned earlier) swung hard toward Trump in 2024 compared to 2020. I can believe it.

I don't find many Trump supporters to be particularly religious.