Marin County Signs

[Voyager]

Now that I live in Sausalito, I've noticed that Marin County has the largest amount of *very* old signs that are button copy and likely dating back to the 50's and 60's. Is there a reason Marin has never updated them? There's the famous Rengstorff exit sign on the peninsula, but most of the SF Bay Area has updated their signs now.

[Max Rockatansky]

D4 probably has more button copy left than any other Caltrans District.  They also subjectively IMO have the worst maintenance standards of all the districts.  I would imagine this has much to do with the general malaise the area currently has regarding highway based infrastructure.

[Voyager]

D4 probably has more button copy left than any other Caltrans District.  They also subjectively IMO have the worst maintenance standards of all the districts.  I would imagine this has much to do with the general malaise the area currently has regarding highway based infrastructure.

I do love the "place name exit" signs that Marin has held onto. I know the Marinwood Exit sign was finally replaced recently except for one of the upcoming exit signs, but its fun to still see "Sausalito Exit".

[ClassicHasClass]

Maybe Caltrans just wants to encourage Sausalito to self-deport.

[FredAkbar]

Maybe Caltrans just wants to encourage Sausalito to self-deport.

You think that's bad? Some activist keeps putting up orange and black signs around construction zones all over the place, calling to "END ROAD WORK".

[Max Rockatansky]

Maybe Caltrans just wants to encourage Sausalito to self-deport.

You think that's bad? Some activist keeps putting up orange and black signs around construction zones all over the place, calling to "END ROAD WORK".

No doubt an activist, who else would use Pumpkin Spice colors?

[jdbx]

D4 probably has more button copy left than any other Caltrans District.  They also subjectively IMO have the worst maintenance standards of all the districts.  I would imagine this has much to do with the general malaise the area currently has regarding highway based infrastructure.

Their sign maintenance is terrible.  I see these abominations in my town on a daily basis...  they did come out and slap a new "↓ ONLY ↓ ONLY ↓" overlay to replace the one that was falling off within the past week or two.  The legend for the signs for the Willow Pass exit are no longer reflecting and are completely illegible after dark.

[Scott5114]

At least if you keep button copy past its sell-by date it is more functional than that...

...Which is probably why they don't replace the button copy.

[flowmotion]

Marin County is this amazing part of California which has experienced almost NO GROWTH in the last 50 years. Its full of very wealthy people cosplaying as environmentalist hippies living in circa-1985 car suburbia (except with extra Porsche dealers).

If Caltrans even spits on their road, they have the Governor's number. So the highway stays the same, and the old signs persist.

[Max Rockatansky]

Marin County is this amazing part of California which has experienced almost NO GROWTH in the last 50 years. Its full of very wealthy people cosplaying as environmentalist hippies living in circa-1985 car suburbia (except with extra Porsche dealers).

If Caltrans even spits on their road, they have the Governor's number. So the highway stays the same, and the old signs persist.

Bolinas is harder to hide from the normals than ever these days thanks to mapping software and GPS. 

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-11-09-mn-1431-story.html

[ClassicHasClass]

They try, though. Weren't they removing signs off CA 1 recently?

[Max Rockatansky]

They try, though. Weren't they removing signs off CA 1 recently?

Yes, there was a fairly recent story.  I believe it was in 2017 but I can't seem to track it down.

[SeriesE]

I wonder if the old button copy signs need some cleaning to make them more legible at night.

Also there was a big sign replacement project for D4. I guess it didn't cover Marin County?

[Scott5114]

I wonder if the old button copy signs need some cleaning to make them more legible at night.

Some of the apparently button copy signs in California are actually porcelain signs that were non-reflective and designed to be lit from below. During one of the 70s energy crises they went black and glued reflectors to them so they could turn the lights off.

Most of the grubby-looking old signs you see in CA are these signs, because the epoxy they used has absorbed smog over the years and turned grey.

[SeriesE]

Some of the apparently button copy signs in California are actually porcelain signs that were non-reflective and designed to be lit from below. During one of the 70s energy crises they went black and glued reflectors to them so they could turn the lights off.

Most of the grubby-looking old signs you see in CA are these signs, because the epoxy they used has absorbed smog over the years and turned grey.

That's something new I've learned today. So that means the reflectors they glued on were not opaque in the back?

Side related thought: the grimy button copy signs I see have vertical streaks of dirt (?) coming down from each button (at least that's what it seems like while driving)

[Scott5114]

Some of the apparently button copy signs in California are actually porcelain signs that were non-reflective and designed to be lit from below. During one of the 70s energy crises they went black and glued reflectors to them so they could turn the lights off.

Most of the grubby-looking old signs you see in CA are these signs, because the epoxy they used has absorbed smog over the years and turned grey.

That's something new I've learned today. So that means the reflectors they glued on were not opaque in the back?

I'm not entirely sure if the reflectors were the usual Stimsonite #1 button reflectors used in button copy elements, or something different. If they were different, though, it would explain why some button copy signs have lost their reflectivity and others haven't.

It's worth noting that, at least toward the end of the button copy era, the reflectors were made of plastic. As the plastic yellows with age and becomes opaque, it makes the buttons not reflect as well.

Side related thought: the grimy button copy signs I see have vertical streaks of dirt (?) coming down from each button (at least that's what it seems like while driving)

That dirt is the dirty epoxy melting in the sun and running down the sign face. True button copy has the buttons snap into the back of separate white metal letters, which are then riveted or screwed onto a blank green sign face. Since there's no adhesive involved, there's nothing to run off from the buttons like that. (Any stains would be rust from the screws, with nothing from the reflectors.)

It would be neat if they could fit the remaining porcelain signs with cheaper-to-operate LED lights and scrape off the buttons and epoxy. They could probably squeeze another 20 to 50 years out of the signs that way, since porcelain signs are damn near indestructible (well, so long as you don't shoot them full of holes, which exposes the steel core and allows it to rust). But that would probably be too expensive in the short term, and I'm not sure how hard it would be to actually remove the epoxy.

[heynow415]

Some of the apparently button copy signs in California are actually porcelain signs that were non-reflective and designed to be lit from below. During one of the 70s energy crises they went black and glued reflectors to them so they could turn the lights off.

Most of the grubby-looking old signs you see in CA are these signs, because the epoxy they used has absorbed smog over the years and turned grey.

That's something new I've learned today. So that means the reflectors they glued on were not opaque in the back?

I'm not entirely sure if the reflectors were the usual Stimsonite #1 button reflectors used in button copy elements, or something different. If they were different, though, it would explain why some button copy signs have lost their reflectivity and others haven't.

It's worth noting that, at least toward the end of the button copy era, the reflectors were made of plastic. As the plastic yellows with age and becomes opaque, it makes the buttons not reflect as well.

Side related thought: the grimy button copy signs I see have vertical streaks of dirt (?) coming down from each button (at least that's what it seems like while driving)

That dirt is the dirty epoxy melting in the sun and running down the sign face. True button copy has the buttons snap into the back of separate white metal letters, which are then riveted or screwed onto a blank green sign face. Since there's no adhesive involved, there's nothing to run off from the buttons like that. (Any stains would be rust from the screws, with nothing from the reflectors.)

It would be neat if they could fit the remaining porcelain signs with cheaper-to-operate LED lights and scrape off the buttons and epoxy. They could probably squeeze another 20 to 50 years out of the signs that way, since porcelain signs are damn near indestructible (well, so long as you don't shoot them full of holes, which exposes the steel core and allows it to rust). But that would probably be too expensive in the short term, and I'm not sure how hard it would be to actually remove the epoxy.

Dirt/decaying epoxy may be a problem in many places, but in southern Marin (and any other coastal environment) the constant blowing in of salt-laden fog and general moist air in that area will rust anything steel and facilitates moss and other growth, including on these signs and the gantries they're mounted on, whether galvanized or painted. 

[Scott5114]

I would have to go to Marin County to take a look to say for sure, but... rust shouldn't be a problem on this sort of sign—either it's porcelain-enameled steel which, unless the sign was damaged by an impact of some kind, shouldn't rust because the steel isn't actually exposed to the air, or, if it's true button copy, everything is aluminum. I can't say I've ever seen plant or fungal growth on a sign face, but I suppose it's possible.

[SeriesE]

The problem with the sign in the first post seems like poorly removed graffiti to me though

[heynow415]

Nobody has tagged that sign, nor has it likely ever been cleaned.  It's a painted sign gantry (common in D4 mid 60's-mid 70's) and a sign plate that has been there going on 60 years.  The black box underneath it has flashing arrows to move left lane traffic to the right.  This from when there was a contraflow bus lane during commute hours. 
Yes, buses ran contraflow in the left lane of the non-commute direction with regular traffic moving in the opposite/correct direction. A gap in the median on the north end allowed buses to get back on the correct side when the "bus lane" ended; on the south side it just merged in with the GG Bridge lane alignment back in the days of plastic posts being moved back and forth depending on traffic patterns. Crazy, huh?  https://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/5500094162/   

[heynow415]

I would have to go to Marin County to take a look to say for sure, but... rust shouldn't be a problem on this sort of sign—either it's porcelain-enameled steel which, unless the sign was damaged by an impact of some kind, shouldn't rust because the steel isn't actually exposed to the air, or, if it's true button copy, everything is aluminum. I can't say I've ever seen plant or fungal growth on a sign face, but I suppose it's possible.

If it's damp enough, lichens and other fungi will grow on just about anything, including porcelain.  Any minor surface imperfection is enough to give it a foothold.  And galvanized steel will eventually rust, especially in a saline marine environment. The sign in the picture is pushing 60 years old and the gantry to which it is attached is/was painted.  Rust is visible along the edges of similar-vintage sign structures in this area from years of salty fogs collecting and dripping off them.

[Voyager]

Nobody has tagged that sign, nor has it likely ever been cleaned.  It's a painted sign gantry (common in D4 mid 60's-mid 70's) and a sign plate that has been there going on 60 years.  The black box underneath it has flashing arrows to move left lane traffic to the right.  This from when there was a contraflow bus lane during commute hours. 
Yes, buses ran contraflow in the left lane of the non-commute direction with regular traffic moving in the opposite/correct direction. A gap in the median on the north end allowed buses to get back on the correct side when the "bus lane" ended; on the south side it just merged in with the GG Bridge lane alignment back in the days of plastic posts being moved back and forth depending on traffic patterns. Crazy, huh?  https://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/5500094162/   

The contraflow bus lane is such an interesting thing that I don't really understand why they got rid of, especially with how much 101 backs up once you get to the Richardson Bay Bridge all the way to the Sir Francis Drake interchange.

[heynow415]

When it was in operation in the 1970's the commute patterns and traffic volumes were much different.  If Marin residents didn't work somewhere in Marin, they were overwhelmingly commuting to the city, mostly to the financial district ("Silicon Valley" was in its infancy at that point, the Presidio was still a military base, and the East Bay had significant industrial and manufacturing jobs).  At that time the only way to get to the city was to drive or take the bus.  The Sausalito Ferry didn't start running until 1970; from Larkspur it started in late 1976. 
Commute travel was very unidirectional - south in the morning, north in the evening with the opposing direction being very lightly traveled. HOV lanes did not exist so to dedicate lanes exclusively for buses was a non-starter, at least in the commute direction.  So the notion of the contraflow bus lane was implemented which actually took up two of the four opposing lanes, the one next to the median as the bus lane and the #2 lane as a buffer.
That arrangement would not work today for a number of reasons, the most significant being that traffic volumes have increased considerably, the number of "reverse commuters" has also increased, and few parallel through roads means more people use the freeway to get around than in other communities.  It would also have been a labor intensive operation, setting up and moving barriers and pylons every weekday.

Another oddity with Marin (yes, there are many) are the bus stops on the freeway.  These "bus pads" are found at most interchanges where buses exit the mainline freeway and then have a bypass ramp that serves the stop and then gets back on the freeway.  Pedestrian access to the stops is via sidewalks and stairs from the crossing roadway, even across ramps(!) in some cases. When Marin was squeezed out of BART, having express bus lines running along 101 was an alternative to (re)establishing rail service.  While many of those express lines, some coming from as far north as Santa Rosa, have been significantly truncated/deleted due to Covid and startup of SMART rail, most of these bus pad stops are still active.  Good examples are at Tiburon Blvd/SR131, Tamalpais Drive, and Freitas Pkwy.  They're something that Caltrans would never go for today but they're there and are used. 

     

[Voyager]

When it was in operation in the 1970's the commute patterns and traffic volumes were much different.  If Marin residents didn't work somewhere in Marin, they were overwhelmingly commuting to the city, mostly to the financial district ("Silicon Valley" was in its infancy at that point, the Presidio was still a military base, and the East Bay had significant industrial and manufacturing jobs).  At that time the only way to get to the city was to drive or take the bus.  The Sausalito Ferry didn't start running until 1970; from Larkspur it started in late 1976. 
Commute travel was very unidirectional - south in the morning, north in the evening with the opposing direction being very lightly traveled. HOV lanes did not exist so to dedicate lanes exclusively for buses was a non-starter, at least in the commute direction.  So the notion of the contraflow bus lane was implemented which actually took up two of the four opposing lanes, the one next to the median as the bus lane and the #2 lane as a buffer.
That arrangement would not work today for a number of reasons, the most significant being that traffic volumes have increased considerably, the number of "reverse commuters" has also increased, and few parallel through roads means more people use the freeway to get around than in other communities.  It would also have been a labor intensive operation, setting up and moving barriers and pylons every weekday.

Another oddity with Marin (yes, there are many) are the bus stops on the freeway.  These "bus pads" are found at most interchanges where buses exit the mainline freeway and then have a bypass ramp that serves the stop and then gets back on the freeway.  Pedestrian access to the stops is via sidewalks and stairs from the crossing roadway, even across ramps(!) in some cases. When Marin was squeezed out of BART, having express bus lines running along 101 was an alternative to (re)establishing rail service.  While many of those express lines, some coming from as far north as Santa Rosa, have been significantly truncated/deleted due to Covid and startup of SMART rail, most of these bus pad stops are still active.  Good examples are at Tiburon Blvd/SR131, Tamalpais Drive, and Freitas Pkwy.  They're something that Caltrans would never go for today but they're there and are used. 

     

I reverse commute from Sausalito to Novato and it's still *pretty much* unidirectional, probably why they never updated the Carpool lanes to both sides since they built them. Those bus pads are fun, I always see people trying to get past the traffic at Seminary Drive and a CHP catching them instantly.

[Voyager]

Noticed this very unfortunate assembly today, looks like nature is taking it back more than any of the others. Also has a rare "Toll" marker on top.