I think US/State Highways should be signed through national parks.

[Roadgeekteen]

Yes, I know the Federal Government maintains these roads and not the states, so they won't be in the official state logs. Frankly, nobody cares. It's confusing to have US 20 and US 191 just vanish going into Yellowstone. Especially in Yellowstone with its many interchanges throughout the park, the US highways should be signed.

[oscar]

This is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.

Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.

[Roadgeekteen]

This is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.

Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.

Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.

[pderocco]

This is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.

I suspect there's some legal reason that Interstate highways can't lose their numbers and signage if they happen to pass through a National Park. The Mojave Reserve avoids the problem by having its border run right along the I-15 ROW.

This is really just a specific case of the more general idea that route number signage should be purely for navigational purposes, and not for indicating maintenance responsibility. But with National Parks, Monuments, etc., the elegant solution would be to have nice brown signs styled like either US or state highway shields, so that you'd still know you're on the right road, but also know you're in the park.

[gonealookin]

In the case of Yosemite and SR 120, it highlights that Caltrans only does the snow removal up to the park boundaries, and the National Park Service does that work within the park.  Same thing with Lassen Volcanic National Park and SR 89.

[LilianaUwU]

something something Calrog something something federal highways

In all seriousness, though, slap some "TO" assemblies and you're golden.

[pderocco]

In the case of Yosemite and SR 120, it highlights that Caltrans only does the snow removal up to the park boundaries, and the National Park Service does that work within the park.  Same thing with Lassen Volcanic National Park and SR 89.

Who benefits from that knowledge? The Caltrans plow driver, who needs to know when to turn around?

[Max Rockatansky]

Probably is more interesting when they aren't signed or have weird off-spec signage.

[gonealookin]

In the case of Yosemite and SR 120, it highlights that Caltrans only does the snow removal up to the park boundaries, and the National Park Service does that work within the park.  Same thing with Lassen Volcanic National Park and SR 89.

Who benefits from that knowledge? The Caltrans plow driver, who needs to know when to turn around?

It gives Caltrans a good response to the people who are mad that they can't enter Yosemite from the east via SR 120 and the Tioga Road early in the season.  Caltrans usually has its work done fairly early, well before Memorial Day, but Memorial Day is about the earliest NPS ever gets their section open.  I'm not blaming NPS for that; they have something like 40 miles of roadway above 8000 feet elevation to clear, while Caltrans has just a few miles above that elevation (the Caltrans stretch is very prone to rockslides and resulting road damage though).

[oscar]

Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.

The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.

[Max Rockatansky]

To be fair I'm not paying a NPS entrance fee if I'm staying on free to use CA 190.  Then again I have an active Annual National Park Pass.

[Roadgeekteen]

Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.

The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.

I mean they don't charge to drive through without stopping. Great Smoky Mountains is like that, also with a 15 dollar parking pass.

[Henry]

Yes, I know the Federal Government maintains these roads and not the states, so they won't be in the official state logs. Frankly, nobody cares. It's confusing to have US 20 and US 191 just vanish going into Yellowstone. Especially in Yellowstone with its many interchanges throughout the park, the US highways should be signed.

I'm sure those designations would be hidden, to ensure continuity. But having them signed through the park would be even better.

[kphoger]

Yes, I know the Federal Government maintains these roads and not the states, so they won't be in the official state logs. Frankly, nobody cares. It's confusing to have US 20 and US 191 just vanish going into Yellowstone. Especially in Yellowstone with its many interchanges throughout the park, the US highways should be signed.

In the case of Yellowstone, as US-20 does not exist within the park, then you'd still have to decide which of the two non-US-20 routes to sign as US-20.

[Roadgeekteen]

Yes, I know the Federal Government maintains these roads and not the states, so they won't be in the official state logs. Frankly, nobody cares. It's confusing to have US 20 and US 191 just vanish going into Yellowstone. Especially in Yellowstone with its many interchanges throughout the park, the US highways should be signed.

In the case of Yellowstone, as US-20 does not exist within the park, then you'd still have to decide which of the two non-US-20 routes to sign as US-20.

It seems like the southern route is the unofficial routing, though the northern one is actually shorter.

[pderocco]

Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.

The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.

Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should feel absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.

I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.

[Quillz]

This is something that varies between, and sometimes within, states. For example, Colorado seems to take the position that US 34 exists within Rocky Mountain NP. California law insists that CA 120 disappears at the west boundary of Yosemite NP, then reappears on the other side. (But there are some obviously fake CA 120 markers within the park, to guide tourists to exits from the park.) Parts of CA 190 and CA 178 exist within Death Valley NP, though I think the highways were there before the park was created or expanded, and the Park Service probably doesn't mind keeping them in the state system. I-40 passes through Petrified Forest NP in Arizona, perhaps for similar reasons.

Yosemite and Yellowstone are among the oldest NPs, which might explain their poorly/un-signed highways.

Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.

Yup. As I learned, it's just honor system. You're supposed to buy a pass, but it's not really enforced.

I bought the America the Beautiful annual pass, though.

[Roadgeekteen]

Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.

The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.

Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should file absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.

I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.

Does anyone know if CA 190 is maintained by Caltrans or the National Park Service?

[Max Rockatansky]

Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.

The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.

Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should file absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.

I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.

Does anyone know if CA 190 is maintained by Caltrans or the National Park Service?

Caltrans

[Roadgeekteen]

Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.

The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.

Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should file absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.

I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.

Does anyone know if CA 190 is maintained by Caltrans or the National Park Service?

Caltrans

That makes sense as the road was there before the park. I believe the NPS built CA 120 through Yosemite.

[gonealookin]

I do like the suggestion of specialized shields to maintain navigational assistance but also distinguish maintenance responsibility.  Caltrans could send NPS some blank spade shields, and NPS could paint them brown and put the arcing letters "YOSEMITE N.P." where "CALIFORNIA" usually goes above the "120".  Makes everybody happy!

[Bickendan]

To keep things inconsistent, OR 62 is officially routed and signed through Crater Lake NP.

[Max Rockatansky]

Death Valley was also only a national monument until 1994, plus there is no enterence toll.

The park does charge an entrance fee. But payment at the unmanned kiosks (no gates) is on an honor system. There are many dishonorable visitors, as well as some who visit only remote areas of the park far away from the kiosks.

Besides, if you're on 190 and just driving through, you should file absolutely entitled to do so without paying a cent.

I think the only way fees like this get enforced is by patrols checking parked cars. If you don't park, you're never checked.

Does anyone know if CA 190 is maintained by Caltrans or the National Park Service?

Caltrans

That makes sense as the road was there before the park. I believe the NPS built CA 120 through Yosemite.

The original alignment predates the NPS but was developed by the state and Federal government.  Rather than repeat what I wrote probably six times I'll just link this:

https://www.gribblenation.org/2021/11/paper-highways-us-route-6-to-san.html?m=1

I have a blog somewhere else that goes into way more detail on the modern Tioga Road inside Yosemite.

[Roadgeekteen]

I do like the suggestion of specialized shields to maintain navigational assistance but also distinguish maintenance responsibility.  Caltrans could send NPS some blank spade shields, and NPS could paint them brown and put the arcing letters "YOSEMITE N.P." where "CALIFORNIA" usually goes above the "120".  Makes everybody happy!

Honestly, I feel like that's still unnecessarily confusing. Just post the normal signs; motorists don't need to know who is paving the road. Some state highways are town-maintained already.

[Quillz]

I do like the suggestion of specialized shields to maintain navigational assistance but also distinguish maintenance responsibility.  Caltrans could send NPS some blank spade shields, and NPS could paint them brown and put the arcing letters "YOSEMITE N.P." where "CALIFORNIA" usually goes above the "120".  Makes everybody happy!

Shields (independently mounted), 10" numerals


Markers (guide signs), 10" numerals


Black-on-yellow is my idea for marking route alignments that are not state maintained, including county routes and national parks. (Personally, never liked the pentagon much).

I guess US route shields could be yellow, too.